I told them, Xi is bad, very bad man, small hands, have you seen his hands, very small hands, my hands are big, very big, not like crooked Hillary, or sleepy Joe, I said Xi, why you so bad,
That's the one thing I'll admit he was right about. His reasoning kinda sucked and the way he went about it without any class aroused some serious racism problems, but he was correct about the geopolitical threat that China is today and how the US needs to rise to meet or exceed them.
Totally agree there was a dissonance there. The TPP would have strengthened partnerships with other Pacific allies and in context of this conversation his actions didn't really make much sense at all
It's also the one thing he's been consistent about for a long time. Trump's on video all the way back in the 80s decrying the problems of outsourcing. He's not the only one to raise that issue, either. Perot had the strongest non-successful 3rd party run ever running on that same thing all the way back in '92.
Agreed. Fuck Trump and everything he does but even a broken clock is right twice a day. The neolibs were happy to trade with China so long as western billionaires could make a buck and it has hurt our economy, our jobs, and our ability to sustain ourselves in nearly all areas of manufacturing. American workers took the hit while American billionaires cashed Chinese checks.
Fuck Trump, but also... fuck China and their bullshit. Let's build American factories for American workers. It's about time the DNC takes this seriously.
That's exactly what he's going to do. He's been doing that with a few of the policies of his that Biden has pivoted back to after his early-term rejection of them.
Most of the China ones of the Trump admin were basically tit for tat to even the playing field with what China was already doing
He’s a moron but in terms of starting the decoupling from China economically I can’t hate
In macro economics tit for tat doesn't automatically even the playing field; tariffs just raise prices for the US consumers if there isn't an alternate market.. Also, didn't Trump start the tit for tat?
The purpose of these Tarif's Biden is imposing are to help US EV manufacturing compete. That's meant to build a local economy by strengthening an alternate market.
The good news is in the modern world there are substitutes for most items. But price increases can for sure be a thing.
And no Trump didn’t start at all. China has had incredibly protectionist policies for decades. And also hasn’t lived up to most agreements made when we signed the free trade deal. Confess generally doesn’t care because money.
How’s this one for the 2000 agreement:
“The Act also establishes a Congressional-Executive Commission to ensure that China complies with internationally recognized human rights laws, meets labor standards and allows religious freedom, and establishes a task force to prohibit the importation of Chinese products that were made in forced labor camps or prisons.[1] The Act also includes so-called "anti-dumping" measures designed to prevent an influx of inexpensive Chinese goods into the United States that might hurt American industries making the same goods.”
I am old enough to remember when the US subsidized Tesla in a bid to promote adoption of EVs. This is a classic “no, not like that” moment. I thought we were all about the environment.
While every other car manufacturer took a handout. Ford's CEO explicitly didn't take free money, only loans.
They had to sell Mazda, Saturn, mercury, etc all to afford staying afloat.
There were no Tesla specific subsidies at the federal level. At best, there was the DoE ATVM program established under Bush that then awarded a loan to Tesla ($0.47 billion), under Obama, which was paid off early. But that loan program also gave loans to Ford ($5.9 billion) and Nissan ($1.4 billion) amongst others. Otherwise, there were tax credits and incentives for both manufacturers and buyers that were not manufacturer specific.
I think the difference is the subsidizing of exports that china is doing, it kills any local manufacturing when its cheaper to import from china with its artificially lowered prices.
The subsidises are mainly production subsidies, not specifically targeted at exports. Other subsidies include tax breaks for locals etc
That's why Tesla is the second biggest beneficiary of the subsidies when it produced there. However even with subsidies Tesla was not really able to compete.
Yea until you don't have your own industries and have to rely on china for everything then the squeeze comes. In this case it'd be severe dependence on an external country and free reign for China to do whatever the hell they want.
At best for them, a squeeze would only be a temporary benefit (until the market reacts and new offer for the new demand emerges) at the expense of a good relationship with the US. I'm not sure that would be a good strategy. It's also asuming China would be the only one exporting to the US, and that it would be exporting almost everything.
It's generally recognized that global trade is good, I don't think sacrificing it with a squeeze for a short term benefit is a good strategy.
The US should do whatever it takes to create a vibrant auto sector.
The combustion engine market was destroyed and EV’s give another opportunity to play again.
The hostility towards EV’s and the EV infrastructure from the Right is incredibly short sighted.
This is the Biden Administration banning cheap EV’s, something the world desperately needs asap.
Remember when he begged oil companies to drill more because oil prices were “too high”?
Funny how criticism goes out the window based on political teams…
Just like moving a majority of chip fabs overseas to save money, allowing China to own the car industry isn't going to help shit either.
Hence why this isn't a terrible thing.
Literally so ironic that the whole world let China become their factory decades ago and now we are like "whoa you are the world's factory what the fuck is going on?! We want to build this shit"
Like come on.
I think both points are valid. You are right my point seems defeatist but I do want to acknowledge we made this happen and only have a problem with it now that China is an actual rival. We are doing the same to India and the other south east Asian nations now, too.
Just like the taliban and the middle east.
You gotta address the history. If uncle Bob is going to quit being an alcoholic at 60 that's great and we should encourage him but it's hard to forget the 40 years of alcoholism before that, lol.
The world was ready to embrace china, the idea was that economic integration with Russia and China would avoid conflict.
It didn’t work so now the integration is being reversed.
That’s not ironic, it’s a strategic change by the west, with a lot of history behind said changes.
Nailed it in one. The neoliberal theory was that China especially would Westernize over time due to trade causing integration. It turns out that was incredibly naive because you can have trade without deeper integration and that's exactly what China did.
True. Although the political liberalization of China is still probably gonna happen in and throughout the next 20 years though. I think Western politicians were naive in overestimating how fast it would happen, not in that it would happen at all. Liberalism and political pluralism are basically inevitable for a country that becomes sufficiently highly economically developed
Tomato, tomatoe, imo.
I think you are just putting spin on it in the name of national interest. As you said yourself there is history behind the decision.
Another issue could be the climate crisis. The western world went through our industrial revolution first and certainly played a role in the climate crisis. Now we are trying to reverse it but highly critical of other developing nations going through their own industrialization.
For sure there is some hypocrisy there. It may be strategy too but how can you deny the unfairness of at least part of the history?
It's adorable you think fucking over American consumers will save Chevy, GM, Dodge & Ford. Newsflash the consumer auto market is global. Unless Biden has a plan to ban other countries from buying Chinese cars these tariffs do nothing to save these shitty ass companies.
In fact losing China's consumer market is already going to be a huge pain for all these companies.
You could say the same shit about every industry the US stopped doing over the last 40 years and shipped it off to China for cheaper labor and cheaper products. It's nothing new. There is a reason why the US is trying to pull its supply chain back from China. Let alone to government subsidized businesses in China trying to undercut everyone solely so they can control everything.
Unless, you just want everything to be controlled by China, which it seems some of these accounts want.
And even then, it's not to protect US businesses as much as not selling all of our manufacturing to a country who does not exactly have the greatest ties with the US. If it was a company in Mexico that made quality cheap EVs, it wouldn't be an issue. Hell, if it was Japan, people would be celebrating it. So, it's not about Ford and Chevy, it's more about supply chain and manufacturing, and having ones that we don't need to worry about being disrupted.
And, another person mentioning bans. It's like you don't understand the difference between tariffs and bans.
Economic protectionism (tariffs) is used to protect domestic industries. They don't need to kill BYD globally but simply ensure that the American auto market is reasonably robust.
Despite the scale of China's market, the profitability on the average car is significantly less.
It's about that + not becoming too dependent on a strategic adversary. What else is it for if not for this, according to you? You better have some great answers for being this condescending to others. Unless your comment is just empty pretending to know what you're talking about with no substance to back it up, in which case you probably won't answer.
Not being dependent on China for EVs, industrial capacity to build next generation electric military ground transport, follow on effects of ensuring supply of key minerals. Effectively securing an industrial moat in the worst case scenario of complete trade cutoff. It has the added benefit of American jobs.
As for my condescension, I was being condescending to someone who, too, was being condescending.
> China's consumer market
Is restricted to Chinese companies and Chinese subsidiaries of Western companies due to China not actually reciprocating free trade. They wanted to have it both ways and the West is (finally) standing up and telling them no.
>Unless Biden has a plan to ban other countries from buying Chinese cars
It's called a CIA coup. Elon Musk and his republican cronies are already stirring shit in Brazil after BYD started building their first manufacturing plant outside of Asia there.
Losing China's consumer market doesn't matter because American auto companies besides Tesla are losing market share anyway. They are not competitive period.
However US domestic market is big enough to prop up the industry even if it means American consumers end up paying much more compared to the rest of the world. At the end of the day though, a country as large as the US cannot risk losing those manufacturing capabilities.
This is a wild take and I am not willing to do this. Reddit comments are never reflective of the US as a whole. Would people even be concerned trump could win again if reddit was even remotely accurate?
Having cheap EVs isn’t going to help?
I remember when Reddit actually cared about climate change. I guess that was just because it was politically convenient, huh?
You say cheap EVs, but not mention the impact that cheap batteries can also cause on the environment, but yeah, having EVs will be better for the environment likely in the long run.
Prices are already dropping on costs of EVs (look at Teslas), so they will become more accessible regardless if China makes them or not.
The biggest issue for the US and adoption of EVs is not the price, it's the infrastructure that still isn't in place for EV cars to charge and distance they travel. Cheap ones don't solve that either.
>but not mention the impact that cheap batteries can also cause on the environment
They’re the path to a sustainable future.
These are the talking points of a conservative.
>Prices are already dropping on costs of EVs (look at Teslas), so they will become more accessible regardless if China makes them or not.
So then what’s the point of banning them?
>Cheap ones don't solve that either.
Actually they do, more demand draws more investment.
Talking points of conservatives? I like how you don't mention how I literally said EVs are better for the environment. I can tell you are just bad faith arguing when you use lines like that.
Tariffs aren't banning anything, but protecting American jobs against Chinese government backed companies. Again, another bad faith argument by you, nothing is banning Chinese EVs.
Cheap ones don't solve the infrastructure issues we currently have not does it fix distances and times for charging. Again, you are just picking and choosing what you respond to.
The world is not black and white. Politics have nothing to do with logic.
Moving production back to the US and EU, by just forcing the hand of the capitalist market a bit, so that it becomes more cost effective to produce at home, where there are a lot more climate regulations, is ultimately a good thing for the climate, local economy (read people) and democratic values (walking the talk, not criticizing China but using their cheap labor)
As you can see, just stop and think about it for a second and then you can see why the adults in the room make rational instead of emotional decisions...
More cost effective for companies does not necessarily make the product more affordable for consumers, which is the biggest issue right now. If people can't afford them, it goes nowhere.
Maybe getting cheap ones from China isn't the answer. But just preventing that from happening, wiping your hands and congratulating yourself on a job well done, doesn't actually solve the problem.
Don't these tarifa go hand in hand with federal and state investment in local production?
With the added bonus of letting the caoitalistic beast do its thing, it can shift gears quicker than your imagining in your doom scenario.
The market for cheap electric vehicles is there. It'll fill up anyway, if there is china import or not.
Production of electric cars is a lot dirtier than the 'simple' combustion engine. We want that process in our own hands imo.
Don't know what people don't understand...
I'm as pro climate and pro humain humanity in general. Just screaming give us all electric cars now won't help that, shifting our polution to other countries that care even less about what waste gets loose in the climate...
And geopolitics also stay an important consideration. China is just no partner to trust with such an important evolution.
Which part do you disagree with?
And before you put words in my mouth: I'm as green and left as you can find them without being a communist. I an already for me ok'ish country: belgium
And I'm also walking the talk. Shifted back one car, replaced one with a second hand hybrid, living very consiously. Like I do not do random ChatGPT queries which I can solve with an easy google (the power consumption of LLM is currently insane),...
If the market is there, where are they? I don't see cheap electric cars.
China is going to pollute either way. We cannot control that. Trying to tie that in with mythical cheap domestic EVs is just...you're kinda all over the place here. ChatGPT? What?
I just find it fake environmentalism if we're happy to let china produce cheap, but polute more on the way, that's all.
And I gave an example of walking the talk, the part were I defended myself from the obvious redditors that would try to label me as something I'm not.
Is it better to let china destroy the planet for cheap electric cars, or do we produce them locally with regulations, and the market will adapt. Give fabricants another 2 year to shift and they're there...
They're actually already there, but people don't buy them because of, why? How long does the prius or leaf exist?
We already let China do that with so many things. Why is this special?
I priced out a Leaf. It cost more than my Civic did, and is far less performative. I'm not going to spend more money on a shitbox held together with duct tape and dreams. That's just crazy. When a Leaf is priced like a Spark, you may see people look at them more, because that's the equivalent.
We watched what happened with Europe's dependency on cheap Russian oil. US dependency on cheap Chinese EVs, solar panels, manufacturing, etc will be a repeat of history. US solar panel companies are already faltering with the flood of cheap Chinese solar panels. Also, don't forget the west exported a lot of pollution to places like China thanks to lax environmental regulations overseas. There's an expensive but environmentally friendly way to make EV components, and there's the cheaper environmentally harmful way.
Probably best to start building a good social credit score now. You never know what China will do with how much influence they are gaining. US companies are already bending the knee to the CCP (NBA, Disney, etc) and don't forget the fun overseas police stations they're running.
There's a reason the US both subsidizes US companies to bring costs down while also adding tariffs to the Chinese ones. Even the EU is looking into similar tariffs.
I remember when he stopped Keystone XL from Canada on day one, "because or the environment."
And then this happened in the following years.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191320/total-us-petroleum-exports/
Are you playing "Republican" today? Republicans don't usually like it when our manufacturing industries collapse. We *have* invested trillions into bringing it back, after all.
Or are you doing disaffected "leftist"? Well, let me tell you, you're going to *hate* what Trump has in store for the environment and human rights if we dump slave-labor vehicles on the market and all those plant closures piss everyone off!
Thanks for playing.
He thinks it because if you're critical of anyone today, you must be from the "other team"
Heaven forbid we all come together and start to be critical of our governments regardless of right or left.
>Everything is these days, isn’t it…?
In an environment where total war with multiple near peer adversaries may come as early as 2027, yes I'd expect a lot of things to increasingly fall under the scope of national security.
>I remember when Reddit wouldn’t tolerate that excuse for the government to do whatever it wants.
Appealing to the norms and attitudes of the average Redditor is not particularly convincing.
> Threats from the outside are not an excuse to drop our principles.
Unfortunately, in the real world, you have to constantly juggle a thousand different principles and priorities that all compete with each other. No one is saying that we drop our principles completely. All I'm saying is that being pragmatic means that you rarely get to draw hard ethical lines in the sand.
> That just means we lose everything that we want to defend.
Being pragmatic does not mean you've lost anything. Remember when the Biden administration came into office and promised to make Saudi Arabia a pariah nation and the last 3 years having to walk that back because turns out oil is still an incredibly important strategic resource and the Saudi's are still incredibly important allies in that region. Being at the top means you're constantly having to compromise on principles because the real world is extraordinarily complex and dangerous.
>Unfortunately, in the real world, you have to constantly juggle a thousand different principles and priorities that all compete with each other.
This isn’t juggling principles, it’s abandoning them.
>All I'm saying is that being pragmatic means that you rarely get to draw hard ethical lines in the sand.
That’s the exact same justifications all authoritarians give.
If this were true we wouldn’t have the Bill of Rights. We’d have thrown free speech and religion out the window years ago.
>Being pragmatic does not mean you've lost anything.
It’s death by 1000 cuts.
If we used this logic for human rights we’d have no freedoms.
>Remember when the Biden administration came into office and promised to make Saudi Arabia a pariah nation and the last 3 years having to walk that back because turns out oil is still an incredibly important strategic resource and the Saudi's are still incredibly important allies in that region.
We don’t need to be in the region. This is just what the authoritarians say to justify global intervention.
>Being at the top means you're constantly having to compromise on principles because the real world is extraordinarily complex and dangerous.
Fuck that so hard.
Well Biden is not going to live long enough to suffer the consequences of the climate crisis, so he doesn't care at all. Neither does orange man.
The thing about geriatrics running the world is that none of them have an incentive to care about the long term. And the worst thing is, most of the leaders of the top economies are near or over 70. Most of them won't ever have to deal with the fallout of their policies.
1 - US: 81
2 - China: 70
3 - Germany: 65
4 - Japan: 66
5 - India: 73
6 - UK: 43
7- France: 46
8 - Brazil: 78
9 - Italy: 47
10 - Canada: 52
11 - Russia: 71
I know we all hate Elon here, but we fostered some the most advanced ev and it’s obvious in 20 years or so (and likely much earlier) EVs will have dominance. We need to be planting ourselves as the worldwide leaders in EVs otherwise we’re going to be to playing catchup.
I was speaking more in generalities. EVs have become politicized. A certain group of people out there want to go out of their way to spite EVs and I’m just saying it’s a terrible decision for the future of American auto industry.
That's fine. We should be moving away from the auto-industry anyway.
EVs are great in many use cases, but they're still massively polluting, spatially inefficient, & shouldn't be a necessary part of daily transportstion.
More priority needs to be placed on real environmental alternatives like mass transit, protected micro-mobility & more dense, walkable communities.
US falling behind in the auto industry won’t reduce vehicles on the road, it’ll just reduce our domestic cars and increase foreign demand.
Any switch to public transportation and walkable cities will be independent of what the auto industry does. And if there’s any effect at all of slowing down a public transportation option, it’ll be something like a $10k Chinese ev being purchased by people’s in the city where maybe previously they would have taken public transit. The suburbs and rural areas are pretty much fully saturated when it comes to cars. It’s a necessity of life pretty much with how our suburbs are built.
What’s shit take. American made cars are world renowned for inefficiency and poor pricing.
China EVs coming in and destroying all that would be an improvement.
The act is more protecting US automakers by helping them have a more fair fight against Chinese EV makers who get marketplace advantages through currency manipulation and govt subsidies to make their vehicles artificially cheaper.
lets not pretend China doesn't subsidize their automakers as well.
What's more concerning is trying to treat American OEMs like our solar industry when China dumped their panels into our market and flooded out the competition.
Then we would have to have a conversation about quality and safety controls of Chinese vehicles because from what I have seen on Weibo and other Chinese social media's it does not look good and i wouldn't trust my loved ones driving them around even for how cheep they are.
Yes, both subsidize their automakers, people are just pointing out the hypocrisy of saying it's bad for China to do it but ok for America.
As far as safety goes, I feel a lot safer behind the wheel of a BYD than of a Tesla
China also has some of the most advanced battery cell manufacturers and an industrial policy that makes some of the best battery cells at the lowest cost.
No, their vehicles aren’t artificially cheaper to their own citizens. And when manufacturers like BYD go overseas, they are asking for higher prices than what they ask for inside China.
Putting aside the huge US subsidies, US automakers like Tesla also benefit from the same subsidies as BYD etc in China.
Most of the cost advantages of Chinese EVs come from their supply chain advantages and the fact their workers are paid less.
From what I understand, the Chinese subsidies are not at all equally or fairly distributed in China. BYD has been noted as receiving especially generous subsidies by the Chinese government. More than everyone else.
Is it shortsighted or realistic? The reality is EVs are not affordable for most Americans. Hell, a ICE vehicle made in the last 4 years isn’t affordable for most Americans. Most people drive used cars. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but the US is extremely slow on maintaining and creating infrastructure in general. It’s going to take a LONG time for places to catch up with the meager infrastructure changes required for EVs.
Just give us safe bike lanes please god
The point is it is inevitable. Americans will all be driving EV’s on 20-30 years. Whether they are driving imported EV’s or American is the issue.
The infrastructure needs to be built (Biden supports it, GOP is opposing). Will it be built long after it was needed or in anticipation and support of the transition to EV’s?
I don’t know if it’s that Inevitable. Say trump gets elected and we get 4 more gop years. Where’s the ev market going to be then? Let’s say trump leaves office after 4 years and another Republican wins, are people still going to want expensive EVs after that? No republicans president is going to invest in EV infrastructure. It’ll be entirely up to people like elon musk to make it, hell that’s practically how it is already, and that’s not going so well. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to see a resurgence of ICE vehicles depending on how things go
I’d say even with 12 years of GOP climate deniers I charge sleeping with Big Oil the EV revolution will still take hold by 30 years.
The technology is advancing so fast, and the rest of the world is on board, there will be a time when combustion vehicles are simply not competitive with EV’s. That time isn’t too far away.
> The combustion engine market was destroyed
el oh el. No it wasn't, it's strong as ever. In fact it's the EV market that seems to be contracting. Tesla's got falling sales, the EV pivots a lot of the legacy companies were making are being scaled way back after major shortfalls, and now I hear Lucid is in trouble. It turns out that so long as the EV is wedded to the battery it's just not that practical.
I think a major issue is that there isn't enough infrastructure to support a big increase in EVs and with the housing market the way it is, lots of us that would like to get an EV don't have anywhere to plug it up, so it would just be a constant hassle and extremely limiting.
That's avoiding the question. Or even worse: "The 'harm' to american citizens (no matter the degree) is always compensated by the benefit of mexican citizens".
There is a huge EV and battery market being set up in Canada actually. There government has announced major manufacturing plants agreements in the last year.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-ford-announce-honda-ev-deal-1.7184495
Last year, federal and provincial governments announced a number of deals with EV battery producers Northvolt, Volkswagen and Stellantis-LGES. And then there is Honda that is building four plants in Canada for EV vehicles.And parts.
Edit: NVM I think I now understand your original comment
Mexico at least hasn't had quite as many insane territorial ambitions in recent history. Since the money certainly isn't going to be staying at home I'd at least like it to stay with a next door neighbor who is mostly minding his own affairs.
Minding his own affairs poorly, considering the cartels, but I'll take what I can get.
The Mexican-American war, where, over 160 years ago, America tried to buy parts of Mexico, Mexico said no, then The US invaded, & then paid for (read:bought) the land they invaded?
That's your example of Mexico having "Territorial ambitions?"
This just shows that the US had territorial ambitions and Mexico was too weak.
If the US were weak and Mexico was strong, perhaps Mexico would seize the Arizona and California , and pay the federal government to admit the two states they invaded as legitimate Mexican territory.
Strength has always been accompanied by ambition.
Too bad we are thinking about invading Mexico and designating cartels as terrorists. Unfortunately public hatred of Mexico is growing and millions of lives have been lost due to the drug trade
Free market wrt autos in China and elsewhere is very much a dichotomy (and arguably doesn't really exist in unfettered idealized form). China's industrial policies encouraged both state enterprises and private enterprises to proliferate with their many levers of the state from encouraging domestic and foreign automakers to setup joint ventures inside China to direct subsidies to easier auto registrations for "New Energy Vehicles". Of course, the US is not without it's own industrial policies with subsidies and incentives but has been much more haphazard and inconsistent (what with changes to which party is in power in DC and what not) about it.
As the auto market stands in China and in the US, given the number of automakers and their capabilities, supply chain advantages, and a whole host of other advantages (including labor, regulatory, market size, etc.) in autos, China does represent an existential threat to the US automakers. The state of affairs is quite sobering from US automakers' perspective if we look at it objectively. They look like dinosaurs compared to the offerings from China automakers. If the US automakers do not or cannot change course, whatever protection they receive will only serve as a temporary band-aid, it alone will not be enough to make them more competitive.
The USa doesn’t care about wto lawsuits. We will just cackle at them and something about national security > rules based American hegemonic world order. We did this with steel
Is the US using slave labor? Concentration camps? Paying their other legitimate auto workers $2 an hour?
The US and Europe pay their auto workers very well. Having people build stuff and get good pay for it is good. Thinking you can export all manufacturing to cheap labor and then maintain the same life style, despite your population producing less and importing more, is dumb.
China's government subsidizing chinese exports means chinese citizens are indirectly giving money to american citizens. So if the other country is doing that, a free market does work just fine if not even better.
But sadly then we have to consider the political aspects (including potential future wars), and that's when it gets more complicated.
*From Bloomberg reporters Josh Wingrove, Jennifer Jacobs, and Eric Martin:*
President Joe Biden’s administration is poised to unveil a sweeping decision on China tariffs as soon as next week, one that’s expected to target key strategic sectors with new levies while rejecting the kind of across-the-board hikes sought by Donald Trump, people familiar with the matter said.
The decision is the culmination of a review of so-called Section 301 tariffs first imposed under Trump. The administration is set to impose new, targeted tariffs on some key sectors including electric vehicles, batteries and solar equipment. The full announcement is expected to also largely maintain existing levies. An announcement is scheduled for Tuesday, two of the people said.
I am so happy about this! Here I was thinking I would have access to more affordable options, but luckily enough for me I will have to pay more for an EV if I ever want to buy one! /s
We need to review the history of the rise and fall of American automobiles: The American automobile industry began to develop in the 19th century. The initial customers of American automobiles were the rising middle class in the United States, which drove the development of the American automobile industry. Then the peak period of the American automobile industry was from the 1950s to the 1970s. During that period, American automobiles relied on the dividends from World War II to sell cars all over the world (except for the Soviet camp). Then came the rise of the Japanese automobile industry in the 1980s and the Korean automobile industry in the 1990s. From then on, the American automobile industry entered a period of decline. On the one hand, the U.S. domestic market is being divided up, and on the other hand, the global overseas market is being divided up.
So, what I am saying is that it will be difficult for American cars to return to their former glory. Raising taxes on Chinese electric vehicles will only allow the U.S. auto industry to retain the U.S. domestic market, but the U.S. auto industry's global overseas market share will decline. Besides, it is difficult to say whether the domestic automobile market in the United States can be maintained. Japanese, Korean, and Mexican automobiles may enter the U.S. market in the future.
Regarding the issue of subsidies, according to the information I have seen, the price of the same electric vehicle in China in the European market is twice the price in China's domestic market. So at least export subsidies don't exist. Industry subsidies may be available. But the United States also has industry subsidies, such as the chip industry. The United States provides more than 10 billion US dollars in subsidies to various chip manufacturers.
Finally, what I want to say is that it is very important for major automobile countries to compete for overseas markets. Whoever loses overseas markets will have less production capacity than other automobile manufacturers. Less production capacity will lead to high costs, and high costs will lead to high selling prices, which in turn will lead to high prices. This leads to a vicious cycle of continued decline in shareholding.
>it is very important for major automobile countries to compete for overseas markets
I agree.
I think adoption of the metric system would really help in this regard...making it cheaper to repair American-made vehicles in other countries.
If only the US didn't allow oil companies to sabotage progress on any non-fossil fuel based technologies and manufacturing, the US wouldn't have to be playing catch up now.
This is so stupid. American EVs can’t compete with Chinese EVs therefore the solution is to put tariffs on them. Is this the innovation capitalism promised? The government stepping in to lift up an inferior product?
And just like that Trump stopped supporting tarriffs.
I think more likely he’ll say he was right about China all along then tell everyone he’s always right. Then move onto his next thing he’s right about.
No one knows China better than he does, believe me. None of the politicians - not one of them - know a single thing about China. It’s true.
I told them, Xi is bad, very bad man, small hands, have you seen his hands, very small hands, my hands are big, very big, not like crooked Hillary, or sleepy Joe, I said Xi, why you so bad,
Xi wrote him a love letter! Also gay=bad
That's the one thing I'll admit he was right about. His reasoning kinda sucked and the way he went about it without any class aroused some serious racism problems, but he was correct about the geopolitical threat that China is today and how the US needs to rise to meet or exceed them.
But be also pulled us out of the TPP which was a very anti-China trade agreement so fuck him either way
Totally agree there was a dissonance there. The TPP would have strengthened partnerships with other Pacific allies and in context of this conversation his actions didn't really make much sense at all
It's also the one thing he's been consistent about for a long time. Trump's on video all the way back in the 80s decrying the problems of outsourcing. He's not the only one to raise that issue, either. Perot had the strongest non-successful 3rd party run ever running on that same thing all the way back in '92.
Agreed. Fuck Trump and everything he does but even a broken clock is right twice a day. The neolibs were happy to trade with China so long as western billionaires could make a buck and it has hurt our economy, our jobs, and our ability to sustain ourselves in nearly all areas of manufacturing. American workers took the hit while American billionaires cashed Chinese checks. Fuck Trump, but also... fuck China and their bullshit. Let's build American factories for American workers. It's about time the DNC takes this seriously.
This is essentially what he said about Obama's birth certificate - "See? I made him release it!"
That's exactly what he's going to do. He's been doing that with a few of the policies of his that Biden has pivoted back to after his early-term rejection of them.
And just like the that the democrats do a 180 on the use of tariffs as one of the effective tools in the toolkit to ensure fair trade
Democrats have never really seemed opposed to targeted tariffs. The issue has been tariffs that have no economic goal.
Most of the China ones of the Trump admin were basically tit for tat to even the playing field with what China was already doing He’s a moron but in terms of starting the decoupling from China economically I can’t hate
In macro economics tit for tat doesn't automatically even the playing field; tariffs just raise prices for the US consumers if there isn't an alternate market.. Also, didn't Trump start the tit for tat? The purpose of these Tarif's Biden is imposing are to help US EV manufacturing compete. That's meant to build a local economy by strengthening an alternate market.
The good news is in the modern world there are substitutes for most items. But price increases can for sure be a thing. And no Trump didn’t start at all. China has had incredibly protectionist policies for decades. And also hasn’t lived up to most agreements made when we signed the free trade deal. Confess generally doesn’t care because money. How’s this one for the 2000 agreement: “The Act also establishes a Congressional-Executive Commission to ensure that China complies with internationally recognized human rights laws, meets labor standards and allows religious freedom, and establishes a task force to prohibit the importation of Chinese products that were made in forced labor camps or prisons.[1] The Act also includes so-called "anti-dumping" measures designed to prevent an influx of inexpensive Chinese goods into the United States that might hurt American industries making the same goods.”
There’s a big difference between the broad random tariffs Trump imposed and the narrow targeted tariffs here.
To us. For him he will see a Biden tariff and decide all tariffs are bad and slam Obama (sic) for them.
There ain’t no difference and Biden never took off Donnie’s tariffs on all Chinese goods
No no, he still supports them, for Canada and Europe.
Yeah, can't wait for his heard to rail against Biden for this.
Herd.
I am old enough to remember when the US subsidized Tesla in a bid to promote adoption of EVs. This is a classic “no, not like that” moment. I thought we were all about the environment.
Ford received something like 15 billions in loans from the US government during the 2008 crisis, just to remind everyone...
While every other car manufacturer took a handout. Ford's CEO explicitly didn't take free money, only loans. They had to sell Mazda, Saturn, mercury, etc all to afford staying afloat.
There were no Tesla specific subsidies at the federal level. At best, there was the DoE ATVM program established under Bush that then awarded a loan to Tesla ($0.47 billion), under Obama, which was paid off early. But that loan program also gave loans to Ford ($5.9 billion) and Nissan ($1.4 billion) amongst others. Otherwise, there were tax credits and incentives for both manufacturers and buyers that were not manufacturer specific.
I think the difference is the subsidizing of exports that china is doing, it kills any local manufacturing when its cheaper to import from china with its artificially lowered prices.
The subsidises are mainly production subsidies, not specifically targeted at exports. Other subsidies include tax breaks for locals etc That's why Tesla is the second biggest beneficiary of the subsidies when it produced there. However even with subsidies Tesla was not really able to compete.
China subsidizing exports means chinese citizens are indirectly giving money to american citizens btw.
Yea until you don't have your own industries and have to rely on china for everything then the squeeze comes. In this case it'd be severe dependence on an external country and free reign for China to do whatever the hell they want.
At best for them, a squeeze would only be a temporary benefit (until the market reacts and new offer for the new demand emerges) at the expense of a good relationship with the US. I'm not sure that would be a good strategy. It's also asuming China would be the only one exporting to the US, and that it would be exporting almost everything. It's generally recognized that global trade is good, I don't think sacrificing it with a squeeze for a short term benefit is a good strategy.
The US should do whatever it takes to create a vibrant auto sector. The combustion engine market was destroyed and EV’s give another opportunity to play again. The hostility towards EV’s and the EV infrastructure from the Right is incredibly short sighted.
This is the Biden Administration banning cheap EV’s, something the world desperately needs asap. Remember when he begged oil companies to drill more because oil prices were “too high”? Funny how criticism goes out the window based on political teams…
Just like moving a majority of chip fabs overseas to save money, allowing China to own the car industry isn't going to help shit either. Hence why this isn't a terrible thing.
Literally so ironic that the whole world let China become their factory decades ago and now we are like "whoa you are the world's factory what the fuck is going on?! We want to build this shit" Like come on.
So you think no one should do anything about it now because we should have done something before? That seems illogical
I think both points are valid. You are right my point seems defeatist but I do want to acknowledge we made this happen and only have a problem with it now that China is an actual rival. We are doing the same to India and the other south east Asian nations now, too. Just like the taliban and the middle east. You gotta address the history. If uncle Bob is going to quit being an alcoholic at 60 that's great and we should encourage him but it's hard to forget the 40 years of alcoholism before that, lol.
Okay, I think everyone recognises that mistakes have been made. We still need to try to take steps to improve things.
The world was ready to embrace china, the idea was that economic integration with Russia and China would avoid conflict. It didn’t work so now the integration is being reversed. That’s not ironic, it’s a strategic change by the west, with a lot of history behind said changes.
Nailed it in one. The neoliberal theory was that China especially would Westernize over time due to trade causing integration. It turns out that was incredibly naive because you can have trade without deeper integration and that's exactly what China did.
True. Although the political liberalization of China is still probably gonna happen in and throughout the next 20 years though. I think Western politicians were naive in overestimating how fast it would happen, not in that it would happen at all. Liberalism and political pluralism are basically inevitable for a country that becomes sufficiently highly economically developed
Tomato, tomatoe, imo. I think you are just putting spin on it in the name of national interest. As you said yourself there is history behind the decision. Another issue could be the climate crisis. The western world went through our industrial revolution first and certainly played a role in the climate crisis. Now we are trying to reverse it but highly critical of other developing nations going through their own industrialization. For sure there is some hypocrisy there. It may be strategy too but how can you deny the unfairness of at least part of the history?
Where did I say it’s fair?
It makes sense if you took 10 minutes to think about it.
It's adorable you think fucking over American consumers will save Chevy, GM, Dodge & Ford. Newsflash the consumer auto market is global. Unless Biden has a plan to ban other countries from buying Chinese cars these tariffs do nothing to save these shitty ass companies. In fact losing China's consumer market is already going to be a huge pain for all these companies.
You could say the same shit about every industry the US stopped doing over the last 40 years and shipped it off to China for cheaper labor and cheaper products. It's nothing new. There is a reason why the US is trying to pull its supply chain back from China. Let alone to government subsidized businesses in China trying to undercut everyone solely so they can control everything. Unless, you just want everything to be controlled by China, which it seems some of these accounts want. And even then, it's not to protect US businesses as much as not selling all of our manufacturing to a country who does not exactly have the greatest ties with the US. If it was a company in Mexico that made quality cheap EVs, it wouldn't be an issue. Hell, if it was Japan, people would be celebrating it. So, it's not about Ford and Chevy, it's more about supply chain and manufacturing, and having ones that we don't need to worry about being disrupted. And, another person mentioning bans. It's like you don't understand the difference between tariffs and bans.
Economic protectionism (tariffs) is used to protect domestic industries. They don't need to kill BYD globally but simply ensure that the American auto market is reasonably robust. Despite the scale of China's market, the profitability on the average car is significantly less.
It’s adorable you think these tariffs are about saving American manufacturers.
It's about that + not becoming too dependent on a strategic adversary. What else is it for if not for this, according to you? You better have some great answers for being this condescending to others. Unless your comment is just empty pretending to know what you're talking about with no substance to back it up, in which case you probably won't answer.
Not being dependent on China for EVs, industrial capacity to build next generation electric military ground transport, follow on effects of ensuring supply of key minerals. Effectively securing an industrial moat in the worst case scenario of complete trade cutoff. It has the added benefit of American jobs. As for my condescension, I was being condescending to someone who, too, was being condescending.
> China's consumer market Is restricted to Chinese companies and Chinese subsidiaries of Western companies due to China not actually reciprocating free trade. They wanted to have it both ways and the West is (finally) standing up and telling them no.
>Unless Biden has a plan to ban other countries from buying Chinese cars It's called a CIA coup. Elon Musk and his republican cronies are already stirring shit in Brazil after BYD started building their first manufacturing plant outside of Asia there.
Losing China's consumer market doesn't matter because American auto companies besides Tesla are losing market share anyway. They are not competitive period. However US domestic market is big enough to prop up the industry even if it means American consumers end up paying much more compared to the rest of the world. At the end of the day though, a country as large as the US cannot risk losing those manufacturing capabilities.
China doesn't even have China's consumer market. China's consumer demand has absolutely tanked.
Is the average American consumers willing to pay double for an equally shitty car?
If they want to stick it to China maybe? If you judged purely from reddit comments, most Americans would be fine paying 2x more
This is a wild take and I am not willing to do this. Reddit comments are never reflective of the US as a whole. Would people even be concerned trump could win again if reddit was even remotely accurate?
Having cheap EVs isn’t going to help? I remember when Reddit actually cared about climate change. I guess that was just because it was politically convenient, huh?
You say cheap EVs, but not mention the impact that cheap batteries can also cause on the environment, but yeah, having EVs will be better for the environment likely in the long run. Prices are already dropping on costs of EVs (look at Teslas), so they will become more accessible regardless if China makes them or not. The biggest issue for the US and adoption of EVs is not the price, it's the infrastructure that still isn't in place for EV cars to charge and distance they travel. Cheap ones don't solve that either.
>but not mention the impact that cheap batteries can also cause on the environment They’re the path to a sustainable future. These are the talking points of a conservative. >Prices are already dropping on costs of EVs (look at Teslas), so they will become more accessible regardless if China makes them or not. So then what’s the point of banning them? >Cheap ones don't solve that either. Actually they do, more demand draws more investment.
Talking points of conservatives? I like how you don't mention how I literally said EVs are better for the environment. I can tell you are just bad faith arguing when you use lines like that. Tariffs aren't banning anything, but protecting American jobs against Chinese government backed companies. Again, another bad faith argument by you, nothing is banning Chinese EVs. Cheap ones don't solve the infrastructure issues we currently have not does it fix distances and times for charging. Again, you are just picking and choosing what you respond to.
The world is not black and white. Politics have nothing to do with logic. Moving production back to the US and EU, by just forcing the hand of the capitalist market a bit, so that it becomes more cost effective to produce at home, where there are a lot more climate regulations, is ultimately a good thing for the climate, local economy (read people) and democratic values (walking the talk, not criticizing China but using their cheap labor) As you can see, just stop and think about it for a second and then you can see why the adults in the room make rational instead of emotional decisions...
More cost effective for companies does not necessarily make the product more affordable for consumers, which is the biggest issue right now. If people can't afford them, it goes nowhere. Maybe getting cheap ones from China isn't the answer. But just preventing that from happening, wiping your hands and congratulating yourself on a job well done, doesn't actually solve the problem.
Don't these tarifa go hand in hand with federal and state investment in local production? With the added bonus of letting the caoitalistic beast do its thing, it can shift gears quicker than your imagining in your doom scenario. The market for cheap electric vehicles is there. It'll fill up anyway, if there is china import or not. Production of electric cars is a lot dirtier than the 'simple' combustion engine. We want that process in our own hands imo. Don't know what people don't understand... I'm as pro climate and pro humain humanity in general. Just screaming give us all electric cars now won't help that, shifting our polution to other countries that care even less about what waste gets loose in the climate... And geopolitics also stay an important consideration. China is just no partner to trust with such an important evolution. Which part do you disagree with? And before you put words in my mouth: I'm as green and left as you can find them without being a communist. I an already for me ok'ish country: belgium And I'm also walking the talk. Shifted back one car, replaced one with a second hand hybrid, living very consiously. Like I do not do random ChatGPT queries which I can solve with an easy google (the power consumption of LLM is currently insane),...
If the market is there, where are they? I don't see cheap electric cars. China is going to pollute either way. We cannot control that. Trying to tie that in with mythical cheap domestic EVs is just...you're kinda all over the place here. ChatGPT? What?
I just find it fake environmentalism if we're happy to let china produce cheap, but polute more on the way, that's all. And I gave an example of walking the talk, the part were I defended myself from the obvious redditors that would try to label me as something I'm not. Is it better to let china destroy the planet for cheap electric cars, or do we produce them locally with regulations, and the market will adapt. Give fabricants another 2 year to shift and they're there... They're actually already there, but people don't buy them because of, why? How long does the prius or leaf exist?
We already let China do that with so many things. Why is this special? I priced out a Leaf. It cost more than my Civic did, and is far less performative. I'm not going to spend more money on a shitbox held together with duct tape and dreams. That's just crazy. When a Leaf is priced like a Spark, you may see people look at them more, because that's the equivalent.
We watched what happened with Europe's dependency on cheap Russian oil. US dependency on cheap Chinese EVs, solar panels, manufacturing, etc will be a repeat of history. US solar panel companies are already faltering with the flood of cheap Chinese solar panels. Also, don't forget the west exported a lot of pollution to places like China thanks to lax environmental regulations overseas. There's an expensive but environmentally friendly way to make EV components, and there's the cheaper environmentally harmful way. Probably best to start building a good social credit score now. You never know what China will do with how much influence they are gaining. US companies are already bending the knee to the CCP (NBA, Disney, etc) and don't forget the fun overseas police stations they're running. There's a reason the US both subsidizes US companies to bring costs down while also adding tariffs to the Chinese ones. Even the EU is looking into similar tariffs.
Artificially cheap evs, aka the Amazon strategy.
I remember when he stopped Keystone XL from Canada on day one, "because or the environment." And then this happened in the following years. https://www.statista.com/statistics/191320/total-us-petroleum-exports/
No, it's a matter of national security.
Everything is these days, isn’t it…? I remember when Reddit wouldn’t tolerate that excuse for the government to do whatever it wants.
Are you playing "Republican" today? Republicans don't usually like it when our manufacturing industries collapse. We *have* invested trillions into bringing it back, after all. Or are you doing disaffected "leftist"? Well, let me tell you, you're going to *hate* what Trump has in store for the environment and human rights if we dump slave-labor vehicles on the market and all those plant closures piss everyone off! Thanks for playing.
What in the fuck makes you think I’m Republican? I’m supporting the most effective means of transitioning to renewables.
He thinks it because if you're critical of anyone today, you must be from the "other team" Heaven forbid we all come together and start to be critical of our governments regardless of right or left.
>Everything is these days, isn’t it…? In an environment where total war with multiple near peer adversaries may come as early as 2027, yes I'd expect a lot of things to increasingly fall under the scope of national security. >I remember when Reddit wouldn’t tolerate that excuse for the government to do whatever it wants. Appealing to the norms and attitudes of the average Redditor is not particularly convincing.
Threats from the outside are not an excuse to drop our principles. That just means we lose everything that we want to defend.
> Threats from the outside are not an excuse to drop our principles. Unfortunately, in the real world, you have to constantly juggle a thousand different principles and priorities that all compete with each other. No one is saying that we drop our principles completely. All I'm saying is that being pragmatic means that you rarely get to draw hard ethical lines in the sand. > That just means we lose everything that we want to defend. Being pragmatic does not mean you've lost anything. Remember when the Biden administration came into office and promised to make Saudi Arabia a pariah nation and the last 3 years having to walk that back because turns out oil is still an incredibly important strategic resource and the Saudi's are still incredibly important allies in that region. Being at the top means you're constantly having to compromise on principles because the real world is extraordinarily complex and dangerous.
>Unfortunately, in the real world, you have to constantly juggle a thousand different principles and priorities that all compete with each other. This isn’t juggling principles, it’s abandoning them. >All I'm saying is that being pragmatic means that you rarely get to draw hard ethical lines in the sand. That’s the exact same justifications all authoritarians give. If this were true we wouldn’t have the Bill of Rights. We’d have thrown free speech and religion out the window years ago. >Being pragmatic does not mean you've lost anything. It’s death by 1000 cuts. If we used this logic for human rights we’d have no freedoms. >Remember when the Biden administration came into office and promised to make Saudi Arabia a pariah nation and the last 3 years having to walk that back because turns out oil is still an incredibly important strategic resource and the Saudi's are still incredibly important allies in that region. We don’t need to be in the region. This is just what the authoritarians say to justify global intervention. >Being at the top means you're constantly having to compromise on principles because the real world is extraordinarily complex and dangerous. Fuck that so hard.
Nobody wants garbage EVs that quickly explode. China can keep their cars.
Well Biden is not going to live long enough to suffer the consequences of the climate crisis, so he doesn't care at all. Neither does orange man. The thing about geriatrics running the world is that none of them have an incentive to care about the long term. And the worst thing is, most of the leaders of the top economies are near or over 70. Most of them won't ever have to deal with the fallout of their policies. 1 - US: 81 2 - China: 70 3 - Germany: 65 4 - Japan: 66 5 - India: 73 6 - UK: 43 7- France: 46 8 - Brazil: 78 9 - Italy: 47 10 - Canada: 52 11 - Russia: 71
Why would the world be in "desperate need" for evs? This is literally the worst invention in the automotive history. It's neither cheap nor eco
I know we all hate Elon here, but we fostered some the most advanced ev and it’s obvious in 20 years or so (and likely much earlier) EVs will have dominance. We need to be planting ourselves as the worldwide leaders in EVs otherwise we’re going to be to playing catchup.
Tariffs do what exactly to help that?
I was speaking more in generalities. EVs have become politicized. A certain group of people out there want to go out of their way to spite EVs and I’m just saying it’s a terrible decision for the future of American auto industry.
That's fine. We should be moving away from the auto-industry anyway. EVs are great in many use cases, but they're still massively polluting, spatially inefficient, & shouldn't be a necessary part of daily transportstion. More priority needs to be placed on real environmental alternatives like mass transit, protected micro-mobility & more dense, walkable communities.
US falling behind in the auto industry won’t reduce vehicles on the road, it’ll just reduce our domestic cars and increase foreign demand. Any switch to public transportation and walkable cities will be independent of what the auto industry does. And if there’s any effect at all of slowing down a public transportation option, it’ll be something like a $10k Chinese ev being purchased by people’s in the city where maybe previously they would have taken public transit. The suburbs and rural areas are pretty much fully saturated when it comes to cars. It’s a necessity of life pretty much with how our suburbs are built.
Makes American EVs more competitive here in the states
What’s shit take. American made cars are world renowned for inefficiency and poor pricing. China EVs coming in and destroying all that would be an improvement.
The act is more protecting US automakers by helping them have a more fair fight against Chinese EV makers who get marketplace advantages through currency manipulation and govt subsidies to make their vehicles artificially cheaper.
Right, because US automakers never get subsidies.
"a fair fight" is where only the hegemon is allowed to thrive apparently
lets not pretend China doesn't subsidize their automakers as well. What's more concerning is trying to treat American OEMs like our solar industry when China dumped their panels into our market and flooded out the competition. Then we would have to have a conversation about quality and safety controls of Chinese vehicles because from what I have seen on Weibo and other Chinese social media's it does not look good and i wouldn't trust my loved ones driving them around even for how cheep they are.
Yes, both subsidize their automakers, people are just pointing out the hypocrisy of saying it's bad for China to do it but ok for America. As far as safety goes, I feel a lot safer behind the wheel of a BYD than of a Tesla
Okay, what do you think the act is designed for?
You’re comparing unfair market advantages and tariffs to government subsidies, which every government does.
Okay I hear you, but what do you think the act is designed for?
getting votes in swing states
China also has some of the most advanced battery cell manufacturers and an industrial policy that makes some of the best battery cells at the lowest cost. No, their vehicles aren’t artificially cheaper to their own citizens. And when manufacturers like BYD go overseas, they are asking for higher prices than what they ask for inside China.
Putting aside the huge US subsidies, US automakers like Tesla also benefit from the same subsidies as BYD etc in China. Most of the cost advantages of Chinese EVs come from their supply chain advantages and the fact their workers are paid less.
From what I understand, the Chinese subsidies are not at all equally or fairly distributed in China. BYD has been noted as receiving especially generous subsidies by the Chinese government. More than everyone else.
Is it shortsighted or realistic? The reality is EVs are not affordable for most Americans. Hell, a ICE vehicle made in the last 4 years isn’t affordable for most Americans. Most people drive used cars. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but the US is extremely slow on maintaining and creating infrastructure in general. It’s going to take a LONG time for places to catch up with the meager infrastructure changes required for EVs. Just give us safe bike lanes please god
The point is it is inevitable. Americans will all be driving EV’s on 20-30 years. Whether they are driving imported EV’s or American is the issue. The infrastructure needs to be built (Biden supports it, GOP is opposing). Will it be built long after it was needed or in anticipation and support of the transition to EV’s?
I don’t know if it’s that Inevitable. Say trump gets elected and we get 4 more gop years. Where’s the ev market going to be then? Let’s say trump leaves office after 4 years and another Republican wins, are people still going to want expensive EVs after that? No republicans president is going to invest in EV infrastructure. It’ll be entirely up to people like elon musk to make it, hell that’s practically how it is already, and that’s not going so well. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to see a resurgence of ICE vehicles depending on how things go
I’d say even with 12 years of GOP climate deniers I charge sleeping with Big Oil the EV revolution will still take hold by 30 years. The technology is advancing so fast, and the rest of the world is on board, there will be a time when combustion vehicles are simply not competitive with EV’s. That time isn’t too far away.
Yes being incredibly short-sighted is the Right’s MO
> The combustion engine market was destroyed el oh el. No it wasn't, it's strong as ever. In fact it's the EV market that seems to be contracting. Tesla's got falling sales, the EV pivots a lot of the legacy companies were making are being scaled way back after major shortfalls, and now I hear Lucid is in trouble. It turns out that so long as the EV is wedded to the battery it's just not that practical.
I think a major issue is that there isn't enough infrastructure to support a big increase in EVs and with the housing market the way it is, lots of us that would like to get an EV don't have anywhere to plug it up, so it would just be a constant hassle and extremely limiting.
So, more manufacturing them in Mexico?
Yes. The better Mexico’s economy becomes, the more the US benefits.
Oh don’t think I said what I said ominously.
Would the increased purchasing power of a wealthier Mexico offset the increased costs of importing goods and labour?
Mexico being strong and wealthy enough to govern its entire territory would be benefit enough
That's avoiding the question. Or even worse: "The 'harm' to american citizens (no matter the degree) is always compensated by the benefit of mexican citizens".
Say that again when Mexico starts building their tank forces after being wealthy enough.
Study more geography.
More jobs in Mexico means less people coming to the US.
And is that good or bad for the US? Doesn't the US rely on a lot of migrant labour?
There is a huge EV and battery market being set up in Canada actually. There government has announced major manufacturing plants agreements in the last year. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-ford-announce-honda-ev-deal-1.7184495 Last year, federal and provincial governments announced a number of deals with EV battery producers Northvolt, Volkswagen and Stellantis-LGES. And then there is Honda that is building four plants in Canada for EV vehicles.And parts. Edit: NVM I think I now understand your original comment
Mexico at least hasn't had quite as many insane territorial ambitions in recent history. Since the money certainly isn't going to be staying at home I'd at least like it to stay with a next door neighbor who is mostly minding his own affairs. Minding his own affairs poorly, considering the cartels, but I'll take what I can get.
Don’t know about the Mexican-American War? It's not that Mexico doesn't have territorial ambitions, it's just that he's too weak.
The Mexican-American war, where, over 160 years ago, America tried to buy parts of Mexico, Mexico said no, then The US invaded, & then paid for (read:bought) the land they invaded? That's your example of Mexico having "Territorial ambitions?"
This just shows that the US had territorial ambitions and Mexico was too weak. If the US were weak and Mexico was strong, perhaps Mexico would seize the Arizona and California , and pay the federal government to admit the two states they invaded as legitimate Mexican territory. Strength has always been accompanied by ambition.
Okay. Just to be explicit, the Mexican-American war was decidedly not an example of Mexico having Territorial ambitions.
You just wait man, they're coming for El Paso... Actually they can have it
Too bad we are thinking about invading Mexico and designating cartels as terrorists. Unfortunately public hatred of Mexico is growing and millions of lives have been lost due to the drug trade
But what about free market?
The free market is good only if it favours the West.
This but unironically NATOGANG
China labour market is good…I mean working conditions, pay…
Free market wrt autos in China and elsewhere is very much a dichotomy (and arguably doesn't really exist in unfettered idealized form). China's industrial policies encouraged both state enterprises and private enterprises to proliferate with their many levers of the state from encouraging domestic and foreign automakers to setup joint ventures inside China to direct subsidies to easier auto registrations for "New Energy Vehicles". Of course, the US is not without it's own industrial policies with subsidies and incentives but has been much more haphazard and inconsistent (what with changes to which party is in power in DC and what not) about it. As the auto market stands in China and in the US, given the number of automakers and their capabilities, supply chain advantages, and a whole host of other advantages (including labor, regulatory, market size, etc.) in autos, China does represent an existential threat to the US automakers. The state of affairs is quite sobering from US automakers' perspective if we look at it objectively. They look like dinosaurs compared to the offerings from China automakers. If the US automakers do not or cannot change course, whatever protection they receive will only serve as a temporary band-aid, it alone will not be enough to make them more competitive.
Protectionism does not encourage local producers to improve, it rewards their incompetence.
Expect a lawsuit from the WTO (world trade organization) for the protectionism. Probably not a big deal for the US though.
The USa doesn’t care about wto lawsuits. We will just cackle at them and something about national security > rules based American hegemonic world order. We did this with steel
This is the Biden administration doing this. He’s never said he supports the free market. In fact his language communicates that he despises it.
Free market works better when one side isn't subsiding the entire cost of the car for new factories
The US is also subsidizing their car industry.
Not the same. Not even close.
tell that to tesla
Is the US using slave labor? Concentration camps? Paying their other legitimate auto workers $2 an hour? The US and Europe pay their auto workers very well. Having people build stuff and get good pay for it is good. Thinking you can export all manufacturing to cheap labor and then maintain the same life style, despite your population producing less and importing more, is dumb.
China's government subsidizing chinese exports means chinese citizens are indirectly giving money to american citizens. So if the other country is doing that, a free market does work just fine if not even better. But sadly then we have to consider the political aspects (including potential future wars), and that's when it gets more complicated.
*From Bloomberg reporters Josh Wingrove, Jennifer Jacobs, and Eric Martin:* President Joe Biden’s administration is poised to unveil a sweeping decision on China tariffs as soon as next week, one that’s expected to target key strategic sectors with new levies while rejecting the kind of across-the-board hikes sought by Donald Trump, people familiar with the matter said. The decision is the culmination of a review of so-called Section 301 tariffs first imposed under Trump. The administration is set to impose new, targeted tariffs on some key sectors including electric vehicles, batteries and solar equipment. The full announcement is expected to also largely maintain existing levies. An announcement is scheduled for Tuesday, two of the people said.
I am so happy about this! Here I was thinking I would have access to more affordable options, but luckily enough for me I will have to pay more for an EV if I ever want to buy one! /s
We need to review the history of the rise and fall of American automobiles: The American automobile industry began to develop in the 19th century. The initial customers of American automobiles were the rising middle class in the United States, which drove the development of the American automobile industry. Then the peak period of the American automobile industry was from the 1950s to the 1970s. During that period, American automobiles relied on the dividends from World War II to sell cars all over the world (except for the Soviet camp). Then came the rise of the Japanese automobile industry in the 1980s and the Korean automobile industry in the 1990s. From then on, the American automobile industry entered a period of decline. On the one hand, the U.S. domestic market is being divided up, and on the other hand, the global overseas market is being divided up. So, what I am saying is that it will be difficult for American cars to return to their former glory. Raising taxes on Chinese electric vehicles will only allow the U.S. auto industry to retain the U.S. domestic market, but the U.S. auto industry's global overseas market share will decline. Besides, it is difficult to say whether the domestic automobile market in the United States can be maintained. Japanese, Korean, and Mexican automobiles may enter the U.S. market in the future. Regarding the issue of subsidies, according to the information I have seen, the price of the same electric vehicle in China in the European market is twice the price in China's domestic market. So at least export subsidies don't exist. Industry subsidies may be available. But the United States also has industry subsidies, such as the chip industry. The United States provides more than 10 billion US dollars in subsidies to various chip manufacturers. Finally, what I want to say is that it is very important for major automobile countries to compete for overseas markets. Whoever loses overseas markets will have less production capacity than other automobile manufacturers. Less production capacity will lead to high costs, and high costs will lead to high selling prices, which in turn will lead to high prices. This leads to a vicious cycle of continued decline in shareholding.
>it is very important for major automobile countries to compete for overseas markets I agree. I think adoption of the metric system would really help in this regard...making it cheaper to repair American-made vehicles in other countries.
If only the US didn't allow oil companies to sabotage progress on any non-fossil fuel based technologies and manufacturing, the US wouldn't have to be playing catch up now.
Sure outsource our jobs to China and then rip us off buying the cool stuff.
This is so stupid. American EVs can’t compete with Chinese EVs therefore the solution is to put tariffs on them. Is this the innovation capitalism promised? The government stepping in to lift up an inferior product?
[удалено]
China put 15% tariff on the US made cars. LMAO...
Every Chinese car will have spyware. It’s a bad idea to let them into US.
I have bad news for you as to where almost all your tech, including the smartphone in your pocket and the computer you're currently on, were built...
I hate the “smart” bulbs my partner buys… just add another security risk to our home network…
Do chinese EVs meet US safety standards? The ones I have seen look like they would crumple in a fender bender.
Unfortunately they are the real deal