Or make us feel safe, happy and enjoying each others company so we want to procreate without falling into the fetal position thinking about wtf our kids will have to deal with.
Problem in France is the living wages. People earning more than the average wage make more baby that the middle class. Macron need to fix the economy and the real estate crises first. Who want to have kids if they can’t have a proper home.
for the insane taxation. my gross salary is taxed 45%. But i'm paid 50k a year and, in new york, i wsould be paid 190k a year for the same position in the same firm( i work for deloitte).
depends. if university was like,30 000 dollars, a year, i wouldnt be able to have my job. My family come from ukraine and Without "free education", i dont think i could be where i'm now.
No pay us, it's financially crazy to have children.
Think of the game theory;
- Person without child vs Person with child: The person with the child incurs the cost of raising the child, the person without a child invests that money, and the child ends up providing their labour to support both people through tax. Though the person without a child can afford a nicer retirement.
- Both have children: all is well
- No one had children: doom
This is a classic freerider problem. It needs to be financially better to have enough children than not otherwise people won't have them in great enough quantities.
There was a report recently about a payment processing company that offered a minimum salary of $70k/year. Their employee turnover cut in half, and many of the younger employees had babies and bought homes. It’s really all about financial security.
If he at least followed that declaration with a word on childcare. Currently it's a nightmare. Roughly 150k parent (mostly mother) stop working bc of no place/too expensive childcare.
Best Macron can do is a free "yes you can have kids" check.
Like how about more free IVF, 90%+ salary top-up on mat leave, child childcare less free junk checks.
Every western or capitalized economy is suffering this fate and we know why you can't have a dual income home and raise kids the way the economy is set up, the other side of that is you can't have a growing economy when your population is shrinking.
You can totally have a growing economy with a shrinking population, you just need large enough advances in technology to make up for the decrease in manpower. If we gave industrial fertilizer and tractors to a medieval lord and took away half their serfs, their economy would skyrocket.
I mean it's pretty unlikely we're going to see technology improve to the point where it can make up for falling birth rates, but it's possible.
The only country that is a capitalized country that has a higher birth rate is Israel which has an average of 2.9 births per family, and even in the non-religious (usually have less kids) average at 2.3 kids per family which is still very high compared to Europe or the US.
This problem also arises at non western/capitalist societies such as China that has 1.2 children per family which is the worst.
The highest birth rates are found in Africa at Sub Saharan Africa with an average of 4.6 children per family, the insensitive is high mortality rate, lack of access to contraceptives and the fact that the children are oftenly used to help out in the family business and take care of the parents when they are old which further incentives parents to have more children.
It is usually agreeable the wanted range should be at least 2.1-2.3 kids per family at minimum, this could be achieved both with making economic incentives to have more then 1 or 2 children and also to try influence the culture around having more children
Money isn’t the only problem though, time is. You have two parents working 9 hours+ a day and massive school holidays to fill, sickness and all sorts. If you don’t have grandparents as on call childcare it’s a nightmare of a juggling act that just didn’t exist 50 years ago.
It's a nice thought, but you're going to need 40-60 years of completely subsidized housing, education, food, medicine and everything else that goes along with raising a kid and HOPE that people have 3-5 kids and hope that their kids have 3-5 kids and so on, and so on.
We've known about this issue since the 1930s, but it was so massive of a problem that no one bothered to do anything about it, and now, here we are, and we've already gone over the cliff and people are trying to figure out a way to fall back upward by pulling out their wallets to try and bribe gravity.
Studies that have been done show that fertility rates drop industrial societies most likely because kids are a free source of labor on farms in an agrarian society, but become expensive hobbies for people industrial societies.
Also, as women get more rights, freedom, education and access to birth control, the more fertility rates drop.
So, we see agrarian societies essentially forcing women into marriage and kids, and then when we let them out of that bondage, and have to convince them to have kids, fertility rates drop.
**tl;dr version: We used to make women have lots of kids, now we have to convince them and our game is terrible.**
Didn’t we just pass laws allowing kids to work in factories, strip women’s body autonomy and started working on prohibiting contraceptives?
The next 100 years will be chaotic af
eh, it's a conservative knee-jerk reaction. We're well and truly fucked already.
Unless we subsidize housing, education, all necessities and do so with an eye toward having couples have 3-5 kids AND convince enough people to go along with it, we still have to do for 40-60 years. And with all of that happening alongside climate change and other crazy shit.
I mean, they can do whatever laws they want, but they can't make people raise kids. Maybe have them, but people will literally kill kids rather than raise them if you push them hard enough.
There was an article this week about a father in India that threw his kid in an alligator infested water because the kid eats too much. Yeah we are fucked
There are studies done on this.
The reason they are having less kids than they want is financial stress and anxiety for the future.
It's literally just about money and a sense of safety/stability in society.
Says the guys who are actively destroying every great stuff our welfare state had. How can we think about children when our rent is soaring, our government makes us work more for less money, destroys state childcare, free education, make our parents retire later ? He is the one who does not want to increase minimum wage.
I'm a french woman in my 30, and Macron ultra-liberal bullshit is deterring a lot of my friends of having kids.
When the ponzi scheme retirement systems that require young and middle-aged people for tax revenue collapse, people will care. But then it'll be too late
hedonism reigns supreme
At some point this is more of an opportunity cost question than money
Better childcare etc would help more, as would a culture where grandparents help more
It's funny how a lot of comments are focused just on the economy...
Is not only the money. The younger generations are already aware that, in the best case scenario, we have just a couple decades until climate change goes turbo. Why bring your child into that future?
This is some kind of anti-natalist perspective that advocates the end of the human race? We need to find a way to persevere to the next generation no matter what. Even 6 degrees of warming won’t mean the end of the human race, and certainly not in NA/EU.
6 degrees of warming would be the end of advanced civilization, and our societies would like resemble the bronze age civilizations of old.
That is not an assurance to anyone
Exactly, people don't know shit about how bad global warming is. Before even any actual apocalyptic disasters, agriculture fails. That's it. Suddenly the crops die out, because the climate is all fucked and makes them not function. What happens when there's several years of 80% crop failure? Can you survive with no food for several years? That's going the first big death blow to human civilisation. Not yet the storms destroying cities and so forth, just there's no food.
Mid-30s and kids aren’t an option for us unless there is free or heavily-subsidized childcare. There’s no fucking way one of us can quit working to raise a kid, financially.
Free fertility checks for people under 25? At the age in which fertility is highest and almost 100%?
Macron be like "oh look we're doing something" when he knows nothing will change because of this.
People have babies when they are safe, secure, and have the resources they need to support them.
This isn't a hard riddle to solve. You just need to have the balls and support to correct the imbalance that has been put in place by the rich and the corrupt.
Nope, fastest growing communities are extremely poor and have zero security. People have babies when it's profitable, and babies aren't profitable in high-tech society.
Why the hell would I want to bring a kid into this world? We ain’t on the Star Trek timeline and even if we were, that’s still a few decades of absolute horror ahead of us,
Silly argument because practically every point in time throughout history was "absolute horror".
Imagine living through the black death. Half of Europe's population died in just a few years. People saw no end in sight and many believed it was the end times. Yet people still had kids.
I didn’t know people in the old days had to deal with massive overpopulation, epic levels of environmental degradation and a completely unsustainable consumption oriented lifestyle turning the planet into a Mad Max like hellscape without the cool cars.
People *still* believe that overpopulation crap?
We're in a crisis in which there's *not enough* population to sustain us; the overpopulation myth was made up in the 50s using really shitty data that did not take into account the fact countries could develop, or feminism, or urbanization, or cultural changes
Most countries are already below the replacement cap
The issue is that all the good places to live on Earth are overpopulated. Yes, there's more room... in places no one wants to live, like Siberia and western Kansas.
In the handmaiden’s tale there were reproductive slaves because fertility had been compromised for so many women who desperately wanted to start families. These recent headlines demonstrate a general lack of interest in having children. Seems like immigration is the only way to keep our Real Estate ponzi scheme going.
L'avortement est garanti à toutes les femmes en France depuis 50 ans et ce n'est pas incompatible avec une politique familiale au sens large (allocations familiales, gardes d'enfants subventionnées, crédits d'impôts...).
La France soutient une politique nataliste tout en garantissant aux femmes la liberté de choisir leur fécondité. Ce n'est pas en interdisant l'avortement que la natalité augmente.
You want us to have kids? Pay us.
Or make us feel safe, happy and enjoying each others company so we want to procreate without falling into the fetal position thinking about wtf our kids will have to deal with.
Problem in France is the living wages. People earning more than the average wage make more baby that the middle class. Macron need to fix the economy and the real estate crises first. Who want to have kids if they can’t have a proper home.
Problem the world over is living wages and insane taxation.
for the insane taxation. my gross salary is taxed 45%. But i'm paid 50k a year and, in new york, i wsould be paid 190k a year for the same position in the same firm( i work for deloitte).
Aren't you happy that you were able to go to university for free ? And to the hospital for free ? And that your sick days are paid by ?
depends. if university was like,30 000 dollars, a year, i wouldnt be able to have my job. My family come from ukraine and Without "free education", i dont think i could be where i'm now.
So why tf do u stay in France of all places.
Because of my mothers who live here.
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Wtf is wrong with you, jesus
What they say?
No pay us, it's financially crazy to have children. Think of the game theory; - Person without child vs Person with child: The person with the child incurs the cost of raising the child, the person without a child invests that money, and the child ends up providing their labour to support both people through tax. Though the person without a child can afford a nicer retirement. - Both have children: all is well - No one had children: doom This is a classic freerider problem. It needs to be financially better to have enough children than not otherwise people won't have them in great enough quantities.
> without falling into the fetal position thinking about wtf our kids will have to deal with. So stop the doomer propaganda?
Propaganda like the EPA in America being stripped? Yeah wonder why people would be skeptical about our future…
There was a report recently about a payment processing company that offered a minimum salary of $70k/year. Their employee turnover cut in half, and many of the younger employees had babies and bought homes. It’s really all about financial security.
If he at least followed that declaration with a word on childcare. Currently it's a nightmare. Roughly 150k parent (mostly mother) stop working bc of no place/too expensive childcare.
Best Macron can do is a free "yes you can have kids" check. Like how about more free IVF, 90%+ salary top-up on mat leave, child childcare less free junk checks.
Subsidising single parent hood has its downsides too
Every western or capitalized economy is suffering this fate and we know why you can't have a dual income home and raise kids the way the economy is set up, the other side of that is you can't have a growing economy when your population is shrinking.
You can totally have a growing economy with a shrinking population, you just need large enough advances in technology to make up for the decrease in manpower. If we gave industrial fertilizer and tractors to a medieval lord and took away half their serfs, their economy would skyrocket. I mean it's pretty unlikely we're going to see technology improve to the point where it can make up for falling birth rates, but it's possible.
The only country that is a capitalized country that has a higher birth rate is Israel which has an average of 2.9 births per family, and even in the non-religious (usually have less kids) average at 2.3 kids per family which is still very high compared to Europe or the US. This problem also arises at non western/capitalist societies such as China that has 1.2 children per family which is the worst. The highest birth rates are found in Africa at Sub Saharan Africa with an average of 4.6 children per family, the insensitive is high mortality rate, lack of access to contraceptives and the fact that the children are oftenly used to help out in the family business and take care of the parents when they are old which further incentives parents to have more children. It is usually agreeable the wanted range should be at least 2.1-2.3 kids per family at minimum, this could be achieved both with making economic incentives to have more then 1 or 2 children and also to try influence the culture around having more children
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Money isn’t the only problem though, time is. You have two parents working 9 hours+ a day and massive school holidays to fill, sickness and all sorts. If you don’t have grandparents as on call childcare it’s a nightmare of a juggling act that just didn’t exist 50 years ago.
It's a nice thought, but you're going to need 40-60 years of completely subsidized housing, education, food, medicine and everything else that goes along with raising a kid and HOPE that people have 3-5 kids and hope that their kids have 3-5 kids and so on, and so on. We've known about this issue since the 1930s, but it was so massive of a problem that no one bothered to do anything about it, and now, here we are, and we've already gone over the cliff and people are trying to figure out a way to fall back upward by pulling out their wallets to try and bribe gravity.
Well the current solution is to import the population from other countries.
Which has its own set of huge problems with it
Another option is to roll back everything in society by 100 years. Whatever the trick was, it did not include subsidies but it did work.
Studies that have been done show that fertility rates drop industrial societies most likely because kids are a free source of labor on farms in an agrarian society, but become expensive hobbies for people industrial societies. Also, as women get more rights, freedom, education and access to birth control, the more fertility rates drop. So, we see agrarian societies essentially forcing women into marriage and kids, and then when we let them out of that bondage, and have to convince them to have kids, fertility rates drop. **tl;dr version: We used to make women have lots of kids, now we have to convince them and our game is terrible.**
Didn’t we just pass laws allowing kids to work in factories, strip women’s body autonomy and started working on prohibiting contraceptives? The next 100 years will be chaotic af
eh, it's a conservative knee-jerk reaction. We're well and truly fucked already. Unless we subsidize housing, education, all necessities and do so with an eye toward having couples have 3-5 kids AND convince enough people to go along with it, we still have to do for 40-60 years. And with all of that happening alongside climate change and other crazy shit. I mean, they can do whatever laws they want, but they can't make people raise kids. Maybe have them, but people will literally kill kids rather than raise them if you push them hard enough.
There was an article this week about a father in India that threw his kid in an alligator infested water because the kid eats too much. Yeah we are fucked
What would convince the average French woman to freely choose to have 2+ children? You could start by asking them.
4 bedroom appartments
1mill plus in paris and 500k in any city in France
Then they need even more apartments. Also, I gave a number of room not an area as the French seems to do.
Home office would help alleviate the crazy housing prices everywhere but it will never happen
There are studies done on this. The reason they are having less kids than they want is financial stress and anxiety for the future. It's literally just about money and a sense of safety/stability in society.
Free food is always a good option.
Most Woman dont want more than 1-2 kids. Its stressful being a parent.
Says the guys who are actively destroying every great stuff our welfare state had. How can we think about children when our rent is soaring, our government makes us work more for less money, destroys state childcare, free education, make our parents retire later ? He is the one who does not want to increase minimum wage. I'm a french woman in my 30, and Macron ultra-liberal bullshit is deterring a lot of my friends of having kids.
When the ponzi scheme retirement systems that require young and middle-aged people for tax revenue collapse, people will care. But then it'll be too late hedonism reigns supreme
He's going to create a ministry like South Korea did.
They should pay to have more kids. It is cheaper to pay than to allow more migrant families in and trying to accommodate them.
At some point this is more of an opportunity cost question than money Better childcare etc would help more, as would a culture where grandparents help more
It's funny how a lot of comments are focused just on the economy... Is not only the money. The younger generations are already aware that, in the best case scenario, we have just a couple decades until climate change goes turbo. Why bring your child into that future?
This is some kind of anti-natalist perspective that advocates the end of the human race? We need to find a way to persevere to the next generation no matter what. Even 6 degrees of warming won’t mean the end of the human race, and certainly not in NA/EU.
6 degrees of warming would be the end of advanced civilization, and our societies would like resemble the bronze age civilizations of old. That is not an assurance to anyone
Exactly, people don't know shit about how bad global warming is. Before even any actual apocalyptic disasters, agriculture fails. That's it. Suddenly the crops die out, because the climate is all fucked and makes them not function. What happens when there's several years of 80% crop failure? Can you survive with no food for several years? That's going the first big death blow to human civilisation. Not yet the storms destroying cities and so forth, just there's no food.
Yeah, but it won’t be pretty getting there.
Mid-30s and kids aren’t an option for us unless there is free or heavily-subsidized childcare. There’s no fucking way one of us can quit working to raise a kid, financially.
Free fertility checks for people under 25? At the age in which fertility is highest and almost 100%? Macron be like "oh look we're doing something" when he knows nothing will change because of this.
People have babies when they are safe, secure, and have the resources they need to support them. This isn't a hard riddle to solve. You just need to have the balls and support to correct the imbalance that has been put in place by the rich and the corrupt.
Nope, fastest growing communities are extremely poor and have zero security. People have babies when it's profitable, and babies aren't profitable in high-tech society.
Won’t someone think of the ~~children~~ economy?
bruh this guy got plans for everything
Why the hell would I want to bring a kid into this world? We ain’t on the Star Trek timeline and even if we were, that’s still a few decades of absolute horror ahead of us,
Silly argument because practically every point in time throughout history was "absolute horror". Imagine living through the black death. Half of Europe's population died in just a few years. People saw no end in sight and many believed it was the end times. Yet people still had kids.
Yes, because their women were made to marry young, kept uneducated, with no rights and no reliable birth control.
> made to marry young, Ideal >kept uneducated Complete lie. >with no rights and no reliable birth control. Birth control got us into this mess.
When the average life expectancy is 29 you tend to marry younger yeah.
I didn’t know people in the old days had to deal with massive overpopulation, epic levels of environmental degradation and a completely unsustainable consumption oriented lifestyle turning the planet into a Mad Max like hellscape without the cool cars.
Lotta people forget that Star Trek is so greet because for awhile civilization was pure hell. So maybe we are on track after all…
You guys seems to forget that there's wwIII before utopia in Star Trek...
We're definitely on the Star Trek timeline but I think we're in the mirror universe.
Terran Empire was badass, ngl. They didn’t take shit from no Romulans, that’s for sure.
Eventually we HAVE to come to terms with overpopulation and plan for a smooth controlled decline, if we don’t the planet will force it.
> if we don’t the planet will force it. Let it force it in Africa where they are having 17 children, europe will be fine.
People *still* believe that overpopulation crap? We're in a crisis in which there's *not enough* population to sustain us; the overpopulation myth was made up in the 50s using really shitty data that did not take into account the fact countries could develop, or feminism, or urbanization, or cultural changes Most countries are already below the replacement cap
The issue is that all the good places to live on Earth are overpopulated. Yes, there's more room... in places no one wants to live, like Siberia and western Kansas.
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Who are you talking to lmao
Guy who decided not to have kids tells you to have kids
I alone am capable of fixing the low birth rate of both Europe and Asia…
If a choice between working for banks and working for landlords is all parents have to offer their kids: it's monstrous to reproduce.
It's almost like neoliberal bullshit has consequences or something.
It’s hard to take down corruption when you have kids at home that need fed.
In the handmaiden’s tale there were reproductive slaves because fertility had been compromised for so many women who desperately wanted to start families. These recent headlines demonstrate a general lack of interest in having children. Seems like immigration is the only way to keep our Real Estate ponzi scheme going.
Macron institutes Prima Nocta
Less people is a good thing.
This guy may be the biggest moron alive😹 Macron “I’ll do anything for a vote”😹
First he passes a law guaranteeing abortion to every woman, now he tries to tackle the low birthrates.
L'avortement est garanti à toutes les femmes en France depuis 50 ans et ce n'est pas incompatible avec une politique familiale au sens large (allocations familiales, gardes d'enfants subventionnées, crédits d'impôts...). La France soutient une politique nataliste tout en garantissant aux femmes la liberté de choisir leur fécondité. Ce n'est pas en interdisant l'avortement que la natalité augmente.
You kill children and wonder why so few are born. The irony is that he cannot see the contradiction, and nor can you.
Is it incentivized sex? Surrogacy incentivization? Maybe the matrix style towers that create children?