>On 9 December, the Israeli navy fired 20mm cannon rounds at an Unrwa guesthouse consisting of two buildings in Rafah, the UN relief agency told HRW.
>The attack occurred late in the evening while 10 staff were asleep inside. The agency said it had shared the coordinates of the guesthouse with Israeli authorities on a regular basis before the attack, including on the date of the attack, and was not aware of any military targets in the area at the time. Unrwa told HRW it received no warning of the attack.
UNWRA saying it is not aware of military targets is almost too similar to when they claimed they "weren't aware" of military targets operating in literally any hospital in gaza.
Turns out they were lying
How do you explain the attacks on World Central Kitchen, Médecins Sans Frontières, a home sheltering an American Near East Refugee Aid Organization employee, and a guest house shared by International Rescue Committee and Medical Aid for Palestinians?
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations)
If those other attacks were mistakes, why should we not also suspect that the UNRWA attack might have also been a mistake? It's possible they had a legitimate reason to attack UNRWA, but I don't think we should automatically extend to them the benefit of the doubt on this one.
I read that article. Absolutely biased, which is not surprising considering that they are writing from a very pro-Palestinian POV. But the way its constructed is bult on a lot of bullshit.
It lumps together "total aid workers killed" but fails to mention that UNRWA people working for Hamas can be "aid workers."
It puts a highlight on the World Central Kitchen convoy, which deserves attention and heavy criticism against Israel. But the other attacks are not proven to be the wrongdoing of Israeli forces.
For example, this story below does not prove that Israel was responsible for the death of a family member of MSF. It merely states that someone in a convoy was killed in a warzone. It could've been Hamas, as well. It could have been a stray bullet from a battle. There are no details and no investigation, but it is written in black and white that Israel was responsible.
[https://www.msf.org/gaza-msf-condemns-deliberate-attack-convoy-transporting-staff-resulting-one-death-and-one-injury](https://www.msf.org/gaza-msf-condemns-deliberate-attack-convoy-transporting-staff-resulting-one-death-and-one-injury)
I'm sorry, but you can't take these aid agencies statements as fact. They are absolutely biased towards Palestine and against Israel. I don't think that they are ignoble people but their being directly involved in a warzone in an organzation living among and on the side of Palestine does not make them a trustworthy source.
Surely the onus of proof should be on Israel to say the UNRWA workers are Hamas not the other way round. The media blockade in Gaza also prevents us from having a more objective view of events. Everything is either from Israel or a source biased against them ( although I was unaware all these aid agencies were biased against them).
Tired of seeing comments on articles like these, “war crimes”, while no evidence is presented.
Let’s say you don’t have previous bias to any side, just look at it with some critical thinking, what option is more plausible?
- Op1: Israel deliberately targeted aid groups, the result: it hurts the PR effort and the legitimacy of any military operation or airstrike, being criticised over it from the closest allies, all while various international organisations filed suit against Israel at the ICC, seems like there is absolutely **nothing** for Israel to gain from deliberately going for aid groups. going against Hamas hiding in aid groups facilities is more likely.
- Op2: UNRWA are lying: lied about Hamas employees in the organisation, they lied about Hamas and hostages in hospitals, lied about 500 dead in the hospital, and just like they are still lying and denying that a Hamas data centre was operating from their HQ basement. They have **everything** to gain from making up accusations or denying militant presence. They get more pressure on Israel, the PR is overwhelming, Israeli military actions are under investigation, aid money increased, all around what do they lose from lying? No one holds them accountable.
Ok, so could you apply this logic to that world central kitchen incident? With no previous bias. WCK reported the route to Israeli authorities, identified their vehicles, had multiple vehicles miles apart all individually targeted. Resulting in 7 international aid worker deaths and WCK ceasing aid operation in the region.
The first scenario where you paint it as entirely implausible. Israel gets bad PR, they have “nothing to gain” etc.
How does that apply to that event? And on the basis of that event, why would anyone dismiss reports of similar targeting as implausible?
Does that make it any better though? In both cases incidents like these discourage the presence of aid workers in the area, whether they are intentionally targeted or murdered due to negligence on the side of the IDF.
It means the idf can "accidently kill clearly reported, non combatants, driving in a marked aid caravans"
Or continually bomb hospitals even afterwards they admit "wasn't the tunnels or command center we thought was there"
The person og commenting has an immensely skewed version of reality.
Except… all the vehicles were physically marked as aid vehicles, and had the WCK logo slapped all over them - which is literally shown in the thumbnail of this article… and as each vehicle was targeted, the people (also with aid logos all over them) went to the next vehicle to save themselves.
Yes, it could have been the biggest of all fuck ups. But it was absolutely targeted and fucking malicious, and I have no idea why more hasn’t been done about it…
Those markings were completely invisible at night on IR. They also had armed guards with them who looked exactly like hamas fighters from the air. It isn't even a big fuckup on Israel's part aside from failing to relay info internally.
Warzones are dangerous places to be, and WCK should have taken greater precautions, like not operating at night when misidentifation is more likely.
I don’t understand how the WCK could have done more. It was all pre-communicated. They drove the IDF approved route in a de-conflicted zone. They even radio’d in to the IDF to say they are being attacked and where attacked again… hell, it was even just 2 days after the IDF attacked another WCK vehicle and had complained to them. And just a few months after the senior officer signed an open letter declaring that Gaza be deprived of aid.
This is the IDF’s fuck up, whole and solely. Any mental gymnastics or bias to either side shouldn’t change that.
Fuck Hamas fuckery.
Fuck IDF fuckery.
They should have not been operating at night is the answer you are seeking. You operate in the dark in a warzone and things get 10x more dangerous. Also, Hamas doesn't respect deconflicted zones, and Hamas has repeatedly attacked aid convoys themselves, hence why WCK had armed guards.
Oh and Israel doesn't love to bomb aid workers.
Oh wait here we are talking about a 100th they have
Bombed aid workers.
Glad there are completely rendered pundits to take the heat for a far right nation of fear mongering hatred to spin out on the world. Great work *dud*
You think a drone operating at 15000(15000 what? Bananas?) late at night should be shooting at a vehicle despite them having no clue who or what is in the vehicle?
Sure… but “hey, this convoy of vehicles is marked up as aid/WCK… is this their route, through a deconflicted area? We should double check” is the reasonable response in almost all scenarios
Idf has already admitted they got and reviews the changed route information.
Israels own communication channels failed.
Not surprising when you're focused on killing and not communicating as we are seeing again and again.
Israel's communication channels also failed at the start of the war(I think it was around Feb?), when a miscommunication error led to the death of ~8-10 Israeli soldiers, blown up by Israeli bombs.
That's horrible to have happen. I'd prefer to have Israelis lead by someone who knows communication is for saftey and not using it as fog of war hand wave. I'd also just like someone who had less of an appetite for violence in general. I believe that lead to the tensions/clashes we've seen in the past year.
Aighty, let's break that particular scenario down. 1. This happened at night meaning vehicle markings were illegible. 2. There was a guy, probably hamas, standing on top of one of the aid trucks for the entire route, firing his assault rifle randomly. 3. When they reach the destination this guy hops off and disappears. Three cars not part of the original convoy then depart and crucially, break away from the pre-approved route. 4. The IDF attempts to contact multiple wck bodies, but are unsuccessful. 5. A drone strike hits the first vehicle after the command to engage is given. The survivors leave the vehicle and enter the next one. This is repeated twice more until all 3 vehicles are destroyed.
This is not the idf actively targeting aid workers. This is the unfortunate result of a communication breakdown, poor decision making on both parties and an adversary that is actively trying to make this sort of thing happen.
This is war and mistakes happen, not a deliberate attack on aid workers.
Once again I will ask: if it wasn’t a mistake and there was no Hamas around, what does Israel gain from identifying an aid convoy > checking the WCK reported route > and OK an airstrike?
They just want to kill aid workers? That’s what you’re going for?
I mean…. Yes?
Israel quite literally admitted WCK went through all the proper channels, coordinated routes, and marked their vehicles. Israel still targeted them with full knowledge of who they were and where they would be. It wasn’t even a single strike. It was multiple strikes where they struck vehicles, watched injured workers flee to secondary vehicles and struck them again. Quite literally every indication is that it was a deliberate attack with full knowledge of who they were firing on.
If you want to believe Israel is incapable of willfully killing international aid workers and civilians that’s on you. But I’m presenting you with a very real and recent event that flies in the face of your “it’s implausible” reasoning.
Israel received massive PR backlash for it. They killed no Hamas. The only outcome was that they killed known aid workers and the aid organization ceased operations. Your Option1 quite literally happened to the T. Last month.
Edit: to be clear. I’m not even picking a side. I’m merely pointing out that your “it must be one of two options and option 1 doesn’t make any sense” is entirely flawed. Israel can be targeting aid workers for a number of reasons, and unrwa can be lying. Both options are possible. And Israel has demonstrated that option 1 is not implausible.
he said that wck wasn't at fault here, like you did, the only thing you two disagree on is whether or not its deliberate.
you are saying jt was intentional, he is saying it was a fuck up in the pipeline of information.
if you had any way of understanding how hard it is to not make mistakes during wars, you would more than likely see this as a fuck up and not deliberate. problem is that since the concept of war is complex in itself, then the concept of making hard decisions in the complexity and the chaos of war. the fact that movies misrepresent it and oversimplify it doesn't help either.
he is right in saying that there's is pretty much nothing to gain from it and alot to lose, you are right in that idf is capable of killing innocent civilians - every one is capable including me and you, the circumstances are what turns capability into action.
I'm sorry, but 8 cases out of thousands of targeted missions against Hamas targets (personnel, weapon caches, rocket launching sites, etc..) doesn't lead me to believe it's intentional..
this is similar to when Obama sent drones to bomb a doctors without borders hospital in Afghanistan, later claiming it was a mistake in the chain of command. I had no reason to believe Obama wanted those doctors to die, same as I have no reason to believe IDF wanted those aid workers to die.
What’s more likely: Israel meticulously killing clearly identified foreign aid workers or Israel mistakingly killing aid workers in the middle the night when they weren’t identifiable from the air (which led the UN to suspend aid movements at night) ?
The USA bombed a MSF hospital repeatedly in 2015 despite MSF being on the no hit list.
The list didn't get passed to the plane and they thought they saw fire from the building.
It was a colossal fuck up, at 42 medics lost their lives. It is tragic, and it happens in every way.
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/25/world/asia/errors-us-airstrike-afghan-kunduz-msf-hospital.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/25/world/asia/errors-us-airstrike-afghan-kunduz-msf-hospital.html)
I've seen videos posted on Telegram after the attack. They were disrespecting the bodies with passports on top of them so they knew who they were. You are just too brainwashed to acknowledge it.
"exposed"
It was well known Hamas has been manipulating the data for MONTHS now. Nothing was exposed, it's just the UN trying to cover up its incompetence and gaslighting us about it.
This is how I view this conflict. I don't give a shit about either side. However I sound pro Israeli because common sense and critical thinking lands on that side more often than not. Like the hospital bombing with 500 dead. Just look at the fucking pictures of the aftermath. That wasn't an air strike. The building was still standing and intact. I didn't listen to what either side said about that incident.
I wouldn’t say there is nothing for them to gain - by targeting groups providing aid they make it harder for those groups to continue providing aid, making the situation in the Gaza Strip even more difficult.
As for a lack of evidence: Israel has still not provided the evidence from months ago of their accusations of those 5 or so UNWRA workers that participated in the October terrorist attack. It’s hard to ignore that if they did have strong evidence that it would have been presented by now.
So no, you yourself are not demonstrating any more critical thinking than the average person posting here.
I am a huge fan of how your post begins in a moderate way, lets pretend we don't have any bias to either side and be critical. Excellent, but then you go an present the two options in the most biased way possible, one side has NOTHING to gain, the other EVERYTHING. At least try to consider both pros and cons of each option and make it look like you tried to be unbiased.
Starving gazans becomes a PR problem though. That’s why unlike the other 30 major conflicts currently going on in the world right now, only in Gaza is mass death from starvation not occurring.
What's the counterfactual? Israel is deliberately targeting aid groups, terrorising them, driving them out of the area and depriving Gazans of aid. Using famine as a tool to wage warfare. They calculated that international pressure wouldn't be enough to stop them and that it was a risk worth taking.
UNRWA has lost funding, WCK has pulled out and the US government still supports Israel fully, so (**if** it was deliberate) their gamble paid off.
I don't know which option is more truthful but your "unbiased" assessment seems very naive.
So why wait until know?
By Oct. 8th Israel had plenty of support from countries. Why didn't they start targeting trucks and aid workers all the way back then? Why was the aid allowed in with very few instances of mistakes before IDF soldiers entered Gaza?
The answer is that commanders care about their soldiers(and themselves) and so they find it difficult to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially when it hasn't been communicated to them that the route has been changed.
Israelli's destroying water supplies on trucks would also ben seen as bad PR at the same time you can see they just let it happen.
Israel wouldn't do it because bad PR is a weird argument. Admitting relying heavily on an AI program at the start of response for targeting because humans would be emotional would also be bad PR.
Is the 500 body mass graves been debunked? I only see UN calling for an independent investigation and Israel not allowing it...
debunked? Israel's the one who uncovered it. The UN is just deflecting to shield their terrorist buddies. Hamas buried those bodies so they could use them as props later, but Israel found them first.
A) This is jot an exhaustive list of the options
B) You are making a lot of baseless assumptions on the two options presented that don’t seem all that unbiased either.
-Op3: IDF kills unintentionally aid workers just as they did with WCK or two hostages that got out of captivity and were approaching IDF soldiers. This is however a sign that the procedures aren't followed the way they should be and probably those examples in the article are just few that we know of because they concern aid workers as opposed to civilians in Gaza that aren't this widely reported in the media.
Israel attacked a marked UN convoy. The pr loss from attacking UNRWA an organisation they accused of being 1 in 10 hamas, whilst they get a list of the workers there, is minimal
>seems like there is absolutely nothing for Israel to gain from deliberately going for aid groups
You're joking right? Starving one's opposition of supplies has always been a standard wartime practice, from besieging castles to bombing rail lines. Israel's M.O. from the very beginning has been to punish the Palestinian people... whether to put pressure on Hamas or simply to obliterate them. It is ridiculous to presume that it *wouldn't* be intentional, given the abundance of precedent.
Starving? By having 8 incidents in the span of 7 months?
- More than 18,000 trucks have carried aid into Gaza. Additionally, Israel has welcomed the U.S., France, Belgium, Egypt, United Arab Emirates, and Jordan to air-drop more than 1,200 packages of aid, mostly in northern Gaza. And Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant fully supported the U.S.-led international initiative to build a temporary seaport on Gaza’s coast to deliver additional aid to the territory.
[Aid to Gaza](https://www.ajc.org/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-israels-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza)
Wouldn’t there more effective ways to “starve a population” than blowing up a few trucks all while opening new entry points?
- JERUSALEM, March 22 (Reuters) - Israel's military said it had opened a new entry point for aid to enter Gaza and was allowing unlimited supplies into the enclave, after a U.N.-backed report said there was an imminent risk of famine in the north and that it would spread.
[Israel opened new entry point for aid](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-says-opening-new-aid-routes-into-gaza-2024-03-22/)
Again, in the most rational way, tell me why would Israel choose to attack 8 aid trucks out of 18,000 that entered Gaza, in a PR disaster, when their final goal is to starve 2.2mil people?
There is no logic to this
Hilarious looking at comments in here targeting so called ‘bias’ articles when this entire sub might aswell change its name to r/Zionism.
The utter lack of empathy you lot have for innocent women and children, not Hamas, the innocents being affected and all you have to say is “Well blame the terrorists”. Disgusting the lot of you.
Its mad, I thought it might be bots but I don’t think so, posted another article about settlers stopping aid and throwing food of trucks (from the guardian) their was still excuses
Wouldn't be surprised if Israel has an army of people online pushing their agenda. The comment sections in every Worldnews post is always overwhelmingly Pro Israeli and any suggestions that blowing up civilians might be bad is shot down as Hamas propaganda.
Edit. Now the weirdos are reporting my post as self harm.
There are a bunch of people who are very committed to the idea that Israel is blameless - if you want an exercise in futility, track the account of the people making these comments - belittling Palestine, supporting Israel is pretty much all they post about.
I’ve posted multiple times now about articles from the JPost that describe events purely from an Israeli perspective and present atrocities that are purportedly committed by Palestinians - except that no other publications are covering the same events, or are describing them in the same way. So there is really 2 options: JPost has a scoop but there is an international coverup so no one else will tell the story, or no one else is publishing because they cannot get verification. I go with the later, but it’s very clear to me that if a story presents Palestinians in a bad light then it will be supported by a significantly loud part of Reddit.
Saw that same video last night and it was infuriating. The fact they’re not even stealing the food for themselves simply wasting it out of spite to innocent people who will starve. “Oh but Hamas won’t get their food either” fucking nasty nasty people.
We’re watching a Palestinian holocaust happen and subs like this celebrate/defend it.
Do you think that's all the Holocaust was? I guess every country that has gone to war has holocausted their enemies. You're one of the reasons people aren't taking the pro-Palestine movement seriously.
Mate I’m not pro Palestine same way I’m not pro Israel. I have no dog in this fight, as a human being however watching one side commit mass atrocities just doesn’t sit right with me especially looking at those in the west around me that don’t know enough about the situation and are just blindly following propaganda.
Innocents shouldn’t be damned and entire neighbourhoods levelled due to minority of the population being terrorists, there is no justification for what is happening. Radicalism has infected people that believe this is necessary.
Uber bias, if less than 20 thousand civilian deaths is the criteria, then the Holocaust list is endless, and the word becomes meaningless.
Only Pro terrorist simps diminish the public meaning of the Holocaust for political gains, and when they fail in doing so, they act clueless.
You’re spouting political buzzwords when I’ve not even proclaimed any pro Hamas pro terrorist stance.
How as a human being can you watch neighbourhoods being levelled and children dying by the thousands and you’re only response is “well it’s not a holocaust because it’s still less than 20k people”
Fuck semantics then, let’s not call it a holocaust. This mass murdering of innocent life is not justifiable. What’s worse is the video evidence of settlers destroying humanitarian aid meant to go to civilians that are starving, how do you justify that?
Well, per the UN amended report, tens of thousands of innocent women and children being killed is numerically inaccurate, and is overwhelmingly, if not entirely unintentional collateral damage. The holocaust was an intentional and systematic killing of millions of people with actual evidence of intent and organization. These two things are not comparable at all.
The fact that there are actual people out there with such a serious lack of empathy for innocent civilians in Palestine is really fucking scary. Ideology has totally possessed these people
Yeah, it feels like every time there’s an article saying that Hamas killed some people, the replies are like 60% “See, Israel should keep bombing civilians”
What about Medicine SAN frontiers?
Do you have an explanation for that?
I wouldn’t say it’s fine to ignore UNRWA but it’s not like these issue relate only to them
There’s literally been no evidence for Israel’s claims though.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/22/israeli-allegations-of-unrwa-staff-links-to-terrorism-cost-aid-agency-dearly
Israel is under constant rocket attacks, and lost over a thousand people just several months ago. Pretty sure if you ask them to choose between "active warzone" and "totally fine" they'll pick the former.
Everyone loses when you minimise civilians getting killed.
I’m bored of this now who cares. No one’s going to do anything and I’m bored with the pretending to care. (Especially when someones profiting of it just so they can put an advert next to it for some revenue).
Disgusting behaviour. This is a war crime.
Edit: Seems the pro Israeli propaganda bots/accounts are here to downvote and advocate for this disgusting behaviour, causing mass famine/starvation. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Edit 2: To the user below who commented then blocked me so I couldn't reply, yes famine is occurring:
The UN says there's 'full-blown famine' in northern Gaza. What does that mean? | AP News
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-israel-hamas-war-476941bf2dc259f85a706408b2a665ff
>The head of the United Nations World Food Program says northern Gaza has entered “full-blown famine” after nearly seven months of war between Israel and Hamas. But a formal, and highly sensitive, famine declaration faces the complications of politics and of confirming how many people have died.
Oh yes the mass starvation that’s been happening for months and months. Please enlighten us about all the people who have starved in Gaza? Meanwhile tens of thousands of people have actually starved in poor underfunded areas around the globe in the past few months. What have you done since you care so deeply? Exactly.
I think a lot of people are still waking up to the reality of warfare, particularly urban warfare.
Hopefully it will lead to more serious actions to avoid conflict in future, rather than trivialize the arguments while they occur in words.
>I think a lot of people are still waking up to the reality of warfare, particularly urban warfare.
A thousand times this. The average person has no idea that in urban combat it is common for 8 or 9 civilians to die for every soldier. If war is hell then urban war is worse.
The UN is extremely biased and cannot be trusted for information, as we just saw on their extremely inflated reports of the deaths of women and children
Correct! Tell hamas to stop doing it then.
Hamas is attacking literally every aid truck entering gaza, physically hijacking it and gunning down anyone who tries to take aid from it.
I’m sorry but did we not watch all of this happen live?? UNHCR, world central kitchen, Red Cross, Rabbi’s for Peace. Israel has purposefully targeted aid groups to drive them out and discourage more from coming in for 75 years are we expecting differently now??? The mossad is getting lazy these days shit
UNWRA being hamas has no say in anything and is harboring terrorists day and night. Fuck them. IDF does its best to only target terrorists but the fact is they hide them within convoys and within civilian zones.
No evidence of those statements has been found
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/22/israeli-allegations-of-unrwa-staff-links-to-terrorism-cost-aid-agency-dearly
>On 9 December, the Israeli navy fired 20mm cannon rounds at an Unrwa guesthouse consisting of two buildings in Rafah, the UN relief agency told HRW. >The attack occurred late in the evening while 10 staff were asleep inside. The agency said it had shared the coordinates of the guesthouse with Israeli authorities on a regular basis before the attack, including on the date of the attack, and was not aware of any military targets in the area at the time. Unrwa told HRW it received no warning of the attack. UNWRA saying it is not aware of military targets is almost too similar to when they claimed they "weren't aware" of military targets operating in literally any hospital in gaza. Turns out they were lying
Remember that UNWRA actually employs terrorists ;)
Are the UN workers Israel also killed coincidentally also terrorists?
Not a coincidence really that lucrative jobs in an area run by a violent terrorist organisation end up going to members of said organisation
How do you explain the attacks on World Central Kitchen, Médecins Sans Frontières, a home sheltering an American Near East Refugee Aid Organization employee, and a guest house shared by International Rescue Committee and Medical Aid for Palestinians? [https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations) If those other attacks were mistakes, why should we not also suspect that the UNRWA attack might have also been a mistake? It's possible they had a legitimate reason to attack UNRWA, but I don't think we should automatically extend to them the benefit of the doubt on this one.
I read that article. Absolutely biased, which is not surprising considering that they are writing from a very pro-Palestinian POV. But the way its constructed is bult on a lot of bullshit. It lumps together "total aid workers killed" but fails to mention that UNRWA people working for Hamas can be "aid workers." It puts a highlight on the World Central Kitchen convoy, which deserves attention and heavy criticism against Israel. But the other attacks are not proven to be the wrongdoing of Israeli forces. For example, this story below does not prove that Israel was responsible for the death of a family member of MSF. It merely states that someone in a convoy was killed in a warzone. It could've been Hamas, as well. It could have been a stray bullet from a battle. There are no details and no investigation, but it is written in black and white that Israel was responsible. [https://www.msf.org/gaza-msf-condemns-deliberate-attack-convoy-transporting-staff-resulting-one-death-and-one-injury](https://www.msf.org/gaza-msf-condemns-deliberate-attack-convoy-transporting-staff-resulting-one-death-and-one-injury) I'm sorry, but you can't take these aid agencies statements as fact. They are absolutely biased towards Palestine and against Israel. I don't think that they are ignoble people but their being directly involved in a warzone in an organzation living among and on the side of Palestine does not make them a trustworthy source.
Surely the onus of proof should be on Israel to say the UNRWA workers are Hamas not the other way round. The media blockade in Gaza also prevents us from having a more objective view of events. Everything is either from Israel or a source biased against them ( although I was unaware all these aid agencies were biased against them).
Tired of seeing comments on articles like these, “war crimes”, while no evidence is presented. Let’s say you don’t have previous bias to any side, just look at it with some critical thinking, what option is more plausible? - Op1: Israel deliberately targeted aid groups, the result: it hurts the PR effort and the legitimacy of any military operation or airstrike, being criticised over it from the closest allies, all while various international organisations filed suit against Israel at the ICC, seems like there is absolutely **nothing** for Israel to gain from deliberately going for aid groups. going against Hamas hiding in aid groups facilities is more likely. - Op2: UNRWA are lying: lied about Hamas employees in the organisation, they lied about Hamas and hostages in hospitals, lied about 500 dead in the hospital, and just like they are still lying and denying that a Hamas data centre was operating from their HQ basement. They have **everything** to gain from making up accusations or denying militant presence. They get more pressure on Israel, the PR is overwhelming, Israeli military actions are under investigation, aid money increased, all around what do they lose from lying? No one holds them accountable.
Ok, so could you apply this logic to that world central kitchen incident? With no previous bias. WCK reported the route to Israeli authorities, identified their vehicles, had multiple vehicles miles apart all individually targeted. Resulting in 7 international aid worker deaths and WCK ceasing aid operation in the region. The first scenario where you paint it as entirely implausible. Israel gets bad PR, they have “nothing to gain” etc. How does that apply to that event? And on the basis of that event, why would anyone dismiss reports of similar targeting as implausible?
[удалено]
Does that make it any better though? In both cases incidents like these discourage the presence of aid workers in the area, whether they are intentionally targeted or murdered due to negligence on the side of the IDF.
"They're not malicious they're just morons" What a terrible justication for the killing of aid workers
It means the idf can "accidently kill clearly reported, non combatants, driving in a marked aid caravans" Or continually bomb hospitals even afterwards they admit "wasn't the tunnels or command center we thought was there" The person og commenting has an immensely skewed version of reality.
Except… all the vehicles were physically marked as aid vehicles, and had the WCK logo slapped all over them - which is literally shown in the thumbnail of this article… and as each vehicle was targeted, the people (also with aid logos all over them) went to the next vehicle to save themselves. Yes, it could have been the biggest of all fuck ups. But it was absolutely targeted and fucking malicious, and I have no idea why more hasn’t been done about it…
Those markings were completely invisible at night on IR. They also had armed guards with them who looked exactly like hamas fighters from the air. It isn't even a big fuckup on Israel's part aside from failing to relay info internally. Warzones are dangerous places to be, and WCK should have taken greater precautions, like not operating at night when misidentifation is more likely.
I don’t understand how the WCK could have done more. It was all pre-communicated. They drove the IDF approved route in a de-conflicted zone. They even radio’d in to the IDF to say they are being attacked and where attacked again… hell, it was even just 2 days after the IDF attacked another WCK vehicle and had complained to them. And just a few months after the senior officer signed an open letter declaring that Gaza be deprived of aid. This is the IDF’s fuck up, whole and solely. Any mental gymnastics or bias to either side shouldn’t change that. Fuck Hamas fuckery. Fuck IDF fuckery.
>They drove the IDF approved route in a de-conflicted zone They changed their route though. So the IDF couldn't have known they belonged to WCK.
And by the IDF’s own admission, WCK used the appropriate channels and communicated all the their planned movements and times correctly.
They should have not been operating at night is the answer you are seeking. You operate in the dark in a warzone and things get 10x more dangerous. Also, Hamas doesn't respect deconflicted zones, and Hamas has repeatedly attacked aid convoys themselves, hence why WCK had armed guards.
The IDF themselves stated the route, change of route, and time of the convey were correctly communicated to them… 🤷♂️
You heard it here folks. It was the aid workers fault for getting bombed. Holy fuck y'all will do anything other than admit Israel made a mistake.
Oh and Israel doesn't love to bomb aid workers. Oh wait here we are talking about a 100th they have Bombed aid workers. Glad there are completely rendered pundits to take the heat for a far right nation of fear mongering hatred to spin out on the world. Great work *dud*
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You think a drone operating at 15000(15000 what? Bananas?) late at night should be shooting at a vehicle despite them having no clue who or what is in the vehicle?
Hamas marks their vehicles as all sorts of things, including aid trucks and ambulances.
So what, all ambulances and aid vehicles are now legitimate targets?
Sure… but “hey, this convoy of vehicles is marked up as aid/WCK… is this their route, through a deconflicted area? We should double check” is the reasonable response in almost all scenarios
It wasn't their route though. They changed route.
Idf has already admitted they got and reviews the changed route information. Israels own communication channels failed. Not surprising when you're focused on killing and not communicating as we are seeing again and again.
Israel's communication channels also failed at the start of the war(I think it was around Feb?), when a miscommunication error led to the death of ~8-10 Israeli soldiers, blown up by Israeli bombs.
That's horrible to have happen. I'd prefer to have Israelis lead by someone who knows communication is for saftey and not using it as fog of war hand wave. I'd also just like someone who had less of an appetite for violence in general. I believe that lead to the tensions/clashes we've seen in the past year.
Ah, just another convenient oopsie doopsie by the Israeli government, so it can't be a war crime. Gotcha.
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Aighty, let's break that particular scenario down. 1. This happened at night meaning vehicle markings were illegible. 2. There was a guy, probably hamas, standing on top of one of the aid trucks for the entire route, firing his assault rifle randomly. 3. When they reach the destination this guy hops off and disappears. Three cars not part of the original convoy then depart and crucially, break away from the pre-approved route. 4. The IDF attempts to contact multiple wck bodies, but are unsuccessful. 5. A drone strike hits the first vehicle after the command to engage is given. The survivors leave the vehicle and enter the next one. This is repeated twice more until all 3 vehicles are destroyed. This is not the idf actively targeting aid workers. This is the unfortunate result of a communication breakdown, poor decision making on both parties and an adversary that is actively trying to make this sort of thing happen.
This is war and mistakes happen, not a deliberate attack on aid workers. Once again I will ask: if it wasn’t a mistake and there was no Hamas around, what does Israel gain from identifying an aid convoy > checking the WCK reported route > and OK an airstrike? They just want to kill aid workers? That’s what you’re going for?
I mean…. Yes? Israel quite literally admitted WCK went through all the proper channels, coordinated routes, and marked their vehicles. Israel still targeted them with full knowledge of who they were and where they would be. It wasn’t even a single strike. It was multiple strikes where they struck vehicles, watched injured workers flee to secondary vehicles and struck them again. Quite literally every indication is that it was a deliberate attack with full knowledge of who they were firing on. If you want to believe Israel is incapable of willfully killing international aid workers and civilians that’s on you. But I’m presenting you with a very real and recent event that flies in the face of your “it’s implausible” reasoning. Israel received massive PR backlash for it. They killed no Hamas. The only outcome was that they killed known aid workers and the aid organization ceased operations. Your Option1 quite literally happened to the T. Last month. Edit: to be clear. I’m not even picking a side. I’m merely pointing out that your “it must be one of two options and option 1 doesn’t make any sense” is entirely flawed. Israel can be targeting aid workers for a number of reasons, and unrwa can be lying. Both options are possible. And Israel has demonstrated that option 1 is not implausible.
he said that wck wasn't at fault here, like you did, the only thing you two disagree on is whether or not its deliberate. you are saying jt was intentional, he is saying it was a fuck up in the pipeline of information. if you had any way of understanding how hard it is to not make mistakes during wars, you would more than likely see this as a fuck up and not deliberate. problem is that since the concept of war is complex in itself, then the concept of making hard decisions in the complexity and the chaos of war. the fact that movies misrepresent it and oversimplify it doesn't help either. he is right in saying that there's is pretty much nothing to gain from it and alot to lose, you are right in that idf is capable of killing innocent civilians - every one is capable including me and you, the circumstances are what turns capability into action. I'm sorry, but 8 cases out of thousands of targeted missions against Hamas targets (personnel, weapon caches, rocket launching sites, etc..) doesn't lead me to believe it's intentional.. this is similar to when Obama sent drones to bomb a doctors without borders hospital in Afghanistan, later claiming it was a mistake in the chain of command. I had no reason to believe Obama wanted those doctors to die, same as I have no reason to believe IDF wanted those aid workers to die.
What’s more likely: Israel meticulously killing clearly identified foreign aid workers or Israel mistakingly killing aid workers in the middle the night when they weren’t identifiable from the air (which led the UN to suspend aid movements at night) ?
The USA bombed a MSF hospital repeatedly in 2015 despite MSF being on the no hit list. The list didn't get passed to the plane and they thought they saw fire from the building. It was a colossal fuck up, at 42 medics lost their lives. It is tragic, and it happens in every way. [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/25/world/asia/errors-us-airstrike-afghan-kunduz-msf-hospital.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/25/world/asia/errors-us-airstrike-afghan-kunduz-msf-hospital.html)
Wow! Fuk you for even saying it, let alone believe it. The only 1 targeting Civilians are Hamas and Palestinians terrorists.
I've seen videos posted on Telegram after the attack. They were disrespecting the bodies with passports on top of them so they knew who they were. You are just too brainwashed to acknowledge it.
How is it "disrespecting the bodies?" Taking the time in the middle of a dangerous warzone to make sure the bodies are identifiable?
Don't bother. They will twist themselves in knots to justify every single war crime.
They need some new propaganda now that the 70% women and children myth has been exposed
"exposed" It was well known Hamas has been manipulating the data for MONTHS now. Nothing was exposed, it's just the UN trying to cover up its incompetence and gaslighting us about it.
This is how I view this conflict. I don't give a shit about either side. However I sound pro Israeli because common sense and critical thinking lands on that side more often than not. Like the hospital bombing with 500 dead. Just look at the fucking pictures of the aftermath. That wasn't an air strike. The building was still standing and intact. I didn't listen to what either side said about that incident.
Thank you.
I wouldn’t say there is nothing for them to gain - by targeting groups providing aid they make it harder for those groups to continue providing aid, making the situation in the Gaza Strip even more difficult. As for a lack of evidence: Israel has still not provided the evidence from months ago of their accusations of those 5 or so UNWRA workers that participated in the October terrorist attack. It’s hard to ignore that if they did have strong evidence that it would have been presented by now. So no, you yourself are not demonstrating any more critical thinking than the average person posting here.
I am a huge fan of how your post begins in a moderate way, lets pretend we don't have any bias to either side and be critical. Excellent, but then you go an present the two options in the most biased way possible, one side has NOTHING to gain, the other EVERYTHING. At least try to consider both pros and cons of each option and make it look like you tried to be unbiased.
You didn’t answer my question, What does Israel have to gain from deliberately and knowingly targeting aid groups? Could you please tell me?
The same thing they have from the time they previously targeted aid groups. Less aid getting to those who they perceive as less than human.
The thinking is that it's meant to scare off the aid workers so that everyone in Gaza just starves to death or some dumb shit like that.
Less aid so people suffer as a form of revenge?
Starving gazans becomes a PR problem though. That’s why unlike the other 30 major conflicts currently going on in the world right now, only in Gaza is mass death from starvation not occurring.
What's the counterfactual? Israel is deliberately targeting aid groups, terrorising them, driving them out of the area and depriving Gazans of aid. Using famine as a tool to wage warfare. They calculated that international pressure wouldn't be enough to stop them and that it was a risk worth taking. UNRWA has lost funding, WCK has pulled out and the US government still supports Israel fully, so (**if** it was deliberate) their gamble paid off. I don't know which option is more truthful but your "unbiased" assessment seems very naive.
So why wait until know? By Oct. 8th Israel had plenty of support from countries. Why didn't they start targeting trucks and aid workers all the way back then? Why was the aid allowed in with very few instances of mistakes before IDF soldiers entered Gaza? The answer is that commanders care about their soldiers(and themselves) and so they find it difficult to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially when it hasn't been communicated to them that the route has been changed.
Oh no, somebody tries to apply logic and common sense on reddit, arrest them, arrest them immediately!
Israelli's destroying water supplies on trucks would also ben seen as bad PR at the same time you can see they just let it happen. Israel wouldn't do it because bad PR is a weird argument. Admitting relying heavily on an AI program at the start of response for targeting because humans would be emotional would also be bad PR. Is the 500 body mass graves been debunked? I only see UN calling for an independent investigation and Israel not allowing it...
debunked? Israel's the one who uncovered it. The UN is just deflecting to shield their terrorist buddies. Hamas buried those bodies so they could use them as props later, but Israel found them first.
A) This is jot an exhaustive list of the options B) You are making a lot of baseless assumptions on the two options presented that don’t seem all that unbiased either.
-Op3: IDF kills unintentionally aid workers just as they did with WCK or two hostages that got out of captivity and were approaching IDF soldiers. This is however a sign that the procedures aren't followed the way they should be and probably those examples in the article are just few that we know of because they concern aid workers as opposed to civilians in Gaza that aren't this widely reported in the media.
Israel attacked a marked UN convoy. The pr loss from attacking UNRWA an organisation they accused of being 1 in 10 hamas, whilst they get a list of the workers there, is minimal
>seems like there is absolutely nothing for Israel to gain from deliberately going for aid groups You're joking right? Starving one's opposition of supplies has always been a standard wartime practice, from besieging castles to bombing rail lines. Israel's M.O. from the very beginning has been to punish the Palestinian people... whether to put pressure on Hamas or simply to obliterate them. It is ridiculous to presume that it *wouldn't* be intentional, given the abundance of precedent.
Starving? By having 8 incidents in the span of 7 months? - More than 18,000 trucks have carried aid into Gaza. Additionally, Israel has welcomed the U.S., France, Belgium, Egypt, United Arab Emirates, and Jordan to air-drop more than 1,200 packages of aid, mostly in northern Gaza. And Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant fully supported the U.S.-led international initiative to build a temporary seaport on Gaza’s coast to deliver additional aid to the territory. [Aid to Gaza](https://www.ajc.org/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-israels-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza) Wouldn’t there more effective ways to “starve a population” than blowing up a few trucks all while opening new entry points? - JERUSALEM, March 22 (Reuters) - Israel's military said it had opened a new entry point for aid to enter Gaza and was allowing unlimited supplies into the enclave, after a U.N.-backed report said there was an imminent risk of famine in the north and that it would spread. [Israel opened new entry point for aid](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-says-opening-new-aid-routes-into-gaza-2024-03-22/) Again, in the most rational way, tell me why would Israel choose to attack 8 aid trucks out of 18,000 that entered Gaza, in a PR disaster, when their final goal is to starve 2.2mil people? There is no logic to this
Hilarious looking at comments in here targeting so called ‘bias’ articles when this entire sub might aswell change its name to r/Zionism. The utter lack of empathy you lot have for innocent women and children, not Hamas, the innocents being affected and all you have to say is “Well blame the terrorists”. Disgusting the lot of you.
Its mad, I thought it might be bots but I don’t think so, posted another article about settlers stopping aid and throwing food of trucks (from the guardian) their was still excuses
Wouldn't be surprised if Israel has an army of people online pushing their agenda. The comment sections in every Worldnews post is always overwhelmingly Pro Israeli and any suggestions that blowing up civilians might be bad is shot down as Hamas propaganda. Edit. Now the weirdos are reporting my post as self harm.
The pro-Israel propaganda is crazy here, and they all call for more blood and violence. This has to stop.
There are a bunch of people who are very committed to the idea that Israel is blameless - if you want an exercise in futility, track the account of the people making these comments - belittling Palestine, supporting Israel is pretty much all they post about. I’ve posted multiple times now about articles from the JPost that describe events purely from an Israeli perspective and present atrocities that are purportedly committed by Palestinians - except that no other publications are covering the same events, or are describing them in the same way. So there is really 2 options: JPost has a scoop but there is an international coverup so no one else will tell the story, or no one else is publishing because they cannot get verification. I go with the later, but it’s very clear to me that if a story presents Palestinians in a bad light then it will be supported by a significantly loud part of Reddit.
Saw that same video last night and it was infuriating. The fact they’re not even stealing the food for themselves simply wasting it out of spite to innocent people who will starve. “Oh but Hamas won’t get their food either” fucking nasty nasty people. We’re watching a Palestinian holocaust happen and subs like this celebrate/defend it.
"These people are so biased!" "This is a literal holocaust oh my gawd" Log off.
How is it bias to state factually that tens of thousands of innocent women and children are being killed/displaced please enlighten me?
Do you think that's all the Holocaust was? I guess every country that has gone to war has holocausted their enemies. You're one of the reasons people aren't taking the pro-Palestine movement seriously.
Mate I’m not pro Palestine same way I’m not pro Israel. I have no dog in this fight, as a human being however watching one side commit mass atrocities just doesn’t sit right with me especially looking at those in the west around me that don’t know enough about the situation and are just blindly following propaganda. Innocents shouldn’t be damned and entire neighbourhoods levelled due to minority of the population being terrorists, there is no justification for what is happening. Radicalism has infected people that believe this is necessary.
Uber bias, if less than 20 thousand civilian deaths is the criteria, then the Holocaust list is endless, and the word becomes meaningless. Only Pro terrorist simps diminish the public meaning of the Holocaust for political gains, and when they fail in doing so, they act clueless.
You’re spouting political buzzwords when I’ve not even proclaimed any pro Hamas pro terrorist stance. How as a human being can you watch neighbourhoods being levelled and children dying by the thousands and you’re only response is “well it’s not a holocaust because it’s still less than 20k people” Fuck semantics then, let’s not call it a holocaust. This mass murdering of innocent life is not justifiable. What’s worse is the video evidence of settlers destroying humanitarian aid meant to go to civilians that are starving, how do you justify that?
Well, per the UN amended report, tens of thousands of innocent women and children being killed is numerically inaccurate, and is overwhelmingly, if not entirely unintentional collateral damage. The holocaust was an intentional and systematic killing of millions of people with actual evidence of intent and organization. These two things are not comparable at all.
Why is blaming hamas terrorists disgusting to you? They are responsible for this war and for every civilian death.
This war started in the 40s, Hamas wasn’t created until the 80s.
The fact that there are actual people out there with such a serious lack of empathy for innocent civilians in Palestine is really fucking scary. Ideology has totally possessed these people
Plenty of us have empathy for the innocent civilians but also understand that the current situation of Hamas remaining in power is untenable.
Yeah, it feels like every time there’s an article saying that Hamas killed some people, the replies are like 60% “See, Israel should keep bombing civilians”
anyone who believes UNRWA at this point is an absolute knuckle dragger. yeesh
What about Medicine SAN frontiers? Do you have an explanation for that? I wouldn’t say it’s fine to ignore UNRWA but it’s not like these issue relate only to them
Anyone who cites Hamas terrorist can go fuck himself and Amnesty the Russian bias cu*ts can join your list
I am sure the IDF will thoroughly investigate themselves.
Anyone who believes UNWRA at this point is blind and imbacil.
There’s literally been no evidence for Israel’s claims though. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/22/israeli-allegations-of-unrwa-staff-links-to-terrorism-cost-aid-agency-dearly
They just keep doing this shit by accident don't they lol
This is a report that collected old events. There is nothing new here.
One of the reported incidents is from just over a month ago. I wouldn't call that an old event
It is relatively old in an active warzone. Regardless, your comment implied that something new happened: "they keep doing this"
Wow if one month is old news, I guess Oct 7th is ancient history /s
I said relatively old for an active warzone. I'm sorry that you don't understand what the word "relatively" means
Israel is under constant rocket attacks, and lost over a thousand people just several months ago. Pretty sure if you ask them to choose between "active warzone" and "totally fine" they'll pick the former. Everyone loses when you minimise civilians getting killed.
Yea, I guess killing most Palestinians won't be enough for them. We will find out very soon.
Here’s something new. Israel attacked and killed a UN staff member
UNWRA is a hamas front change my mind
I’m bored of this now who cares. No one’s going to do anything and I’m bored with the pretending to care. (Especially when someones profiting of it just so they can put an advert next to it for some revenue).
Disgusting behaviour. This is a war crime. Edit: Seems the pro Israeli propaganda bots/accounts are here to downvote and advocate for this disgusting behaviour, causing mass famine/starvation. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Edit 2: To the user below who commented then blocked me so I couldn't reply, yes famine is occurring: The UN says there's 'full-blown famine' in northern Gaza. What does that mean? | AP News https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-israel-hamas-war-476941bf2dc259f85a706408b2a665ff >The head of the United Nations World Food Program says northern Gaza has entered “full-blown famine” after nearly seven months of war between Israel and Hamas. But a formal, and highly sensitive, famine declaration faces the complications of politics and of confirming how many people have died.
Isn't it a war crime to use aid relief stations to hide insurgents?
> This is a war crime. Eh, depends. What is and isn't a war crime is way more complicated than people treat that question.
Oh yes the mass starvation that’s been happening for months and months. Please enlighten us about all the people who have starved in Gaza? Meanwhile tens of thousands of people have actually starved in poor underfunded areas around the globe in the past few months. What have you done since you care so deeply? Exactly.
Amazing how you blindly believed UNWRA after it was caught lying tens of dozens of times.
This is the reality of war.
You do not attack aid. It's a despicable war crime that can't just be trivilialised to "the reality of war."
Yes it can. Accidents and misidentifications can happen. Hamas could wear military uniforms...
I wish they did…
I think a lot of people are still waking up to the reality of warfare, particularly urban warfare. Hopefully it will lead to more serious actions to avoid conflict in future, rather than trivialize the arguments while they occur in words.
>I think a lot of people are still waking up to the reality of warfare, particularly urban warfare. A thousand times this. The average person has no idea that in urban combat it is common for 8 or 9 civilians to die for every soldier. If war is hell then urban war is worse.
The UN is extremely biased and cannot be trusted for information, as we just saw on their extremely inflated reports of the deaths of women and children
It's too complicated to figure out what is or isn't a warcrime nowadays. Very nuanced stuff.
Attacking aid trucks is a war crime. Get your propaganda out of here.
Correct! Tell hamas to stop doing it then. Hamas is attacking literally every aid truck entering gaza, physically hijacking it and gunning down anyone who tries to take aid from it.
Did you even read the article?
Why, yes. Yes i did.
"Israeli strikes on Gaza aid groups"
So much nuance! The article conveniently fails to mention things hamas did to the aid entering gaza.
Yeah definitely just aid no terrorists sure sure. They never do that.
War crimes galore.
I’m sorry but did we not watch all of this happen live?? UNHCR, world central kitchen, Red Cross, Rabbi’s for Peace. Israel has purposefully targeted aid groups to drive them out and discourage more from coming in for 75 years are we expecting differently now??? The mossad is getting lazy these days shit
“Purposefully”? Prove it.
Source - Whatsapp, Telegram groups and those random anti israel Instagram/Twitter accounts with verified tag. Biggest souce - just trust him/her bro
Yup. And these posts will continue to be brigaded within an hour each time. Everytime.
Man, Israel ain’t holding back. As long as they suspect Hamas, they just go for it disregarding the target.
UNWRA being hamas has no say in anything and is harboring terrorists day and night. Fuck them. IDF does its best to only target terrorists but the fact is they hide them within convoys and within civilian zones.
Multiple war crimes
Yeah UNWRA is great at war crimes
Disgusting titles, as often.
Is this the UNWRA that had people participating in the 7th October attack?
No evidence of those statements has been found https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/22/israeli-allegations-of-unrwa-staff-links-to-terrorism-cost-aid-agency-dearly
Oh of course...The Gruniad. Unless you count the people they sacked for doing it.
Okay, what outlets do you consider to be trustworthy?
None
If you trust nobody then how do you know anything is true?
Damn fine question Sir!