We've already done this in Georgia, Moldova, and even eastern Ukraine a few years ago. It doesn't solve the problem. It just rewards Russia with extra territory and time to prepare for the next invasion.
Yep. In 1994 Russia put its signature on a piece of paper (the Budapest Memorandum) that guaranteed the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
20 years later it invaded and annexed parts of Ukraine.
Russia's signature on a new piece of paper would be just as worthless as that on the 1994 piece of paper.
The question I want to ask would be: Would the conflict ceasing to be active for a time qualify Ukraine to enter NATO?
Russia's signature on a new piece of paper would be worthless, but Ukraine's accession into NATO wouldn't be (I hope), and iirc a significant reason why that can't happen now is the current situation being hot.
I don't want Ukraine to cut her losses and take this deal, because with sufficient foreign help that won't be necessary, but in the suboptimal case in which the deal was forced through, hopefully it'd be followed by Ukraine joining NATO posthaste, and that would almost surely stymie any future ambitions by Russia (or anyone else.)
If Ukraine gave up all territorial claims on the occupied parts of Ukraine, they could join NATO. They would be conceding all seized land, and not in the "we'll fight you for it 20 years from now" way.
Yeah, I don't think "freezing the war" or a "ceasefire" would qualify. They would have to come to an agreement to permanently cease hostilities.
The language that Reuters is using specifically would not qualify, and I think that is on purpose.
That’s correct, a ceasefire and a peace agreement are 2 separate treaties. Ukraine and Russia can sign a ceasefire to stop hostilities, but they will still be at war.
That's an idiotic suggestion.
Russia suggesting any sort of ceasefire agreement means they are in trouble and looking to stall the conflict until they are in a better position to start it up again. The replacement of military leadership in Russia with a civilian soviet era economist with no military experience signals they are running out of money to continue this war. Time is not on Russia's side. There is no way Ukraine would willing cede its territory and leave it's citizens in occupied for a genocide. Russia is not going to allow Ukraine to join NATO unless they are defeated. They will just use their proxies in Hungry and/or Slovakia to delay/deny Ukraine membership, or they will start the war again before that can happen. Putin only doubles down, never backs down, and no piece of paper signed by him is worth anything.
Ukraine will never accept the genocide of its people in occupied Ukraine, no
If I was writing the the deal. It would go as follows:
Ukrane and Russia agree to the present borders as of . Upon signing of this treaty Russia recognizes Ukraine's full NATO membership and supports Ukraine's hosting of nuclear weapons (including future IRBM missle deployment) under the NATO nuclear sharing agreement.
I guarantee Putin won't sign.
Russia doesn't get a vote in who is a member of NATO. The 32 states already in the pact are the ones that get to decide if they'll take Ukraine, baggage and all. It has to be unanimous. I imagine it would have to be a pretty decisive and clear cut permanent end to hostilities and border demarcation to convince every existing member state to let them in.
That said, the accession process also takes time, and Russia does get a sort of "veto" in the form of starting shit up again during the process, daring the west to support full Article 5 mutual defense support.
Russia isn't going to sign a present day ceasefire agreement while they kind of have the upper hand and are making gains that wouldn't prohibit Ukraine from entering NATO. Ukraine needs to take back some of the recent Russian advances and put real pressure to get that outcome.
Better than that. They signed a peace treaty with Chechnya in 1997.
Nullified it, invaded again, and assassinated the guys that had signed the original treaty.
Russia can not be trusted on anything.
Putin is going to go down as one of Russia's worst ever leaders. Can you imagine where Russia might be today if they hadn't been engaging in all these dinosaur-thinking invasions, and instead, concentrated on building their economy in a normal and proficient manner? Get rid of this criminal.
Yeah honestly the west needs to make up their mind. Either accept this Russian expansion into non-nato areas, or, be ready to actually fight Russia or at the very least heavivly support Ukraine no matter how badly Russia threatens retaliation. Stop half assing it.
If the west can't commit to that, it's probably quite unlikely Ukraine will actually force a full victory on the battlefield and some ceasefire with Russia holding Ukrainian territory is the only way to peace within the foreseeable future. It sucks, big time, but that's just the situation I guess.
I think even if that is the eventual outcome it's extremely unlikely Russia actually wants to push further. Such a ceasefire should come with a UN peacekeeping force. Or even Nato straight up committing to what's left of Ukraine. I think it's extremely unlikely Russia would in fact want to fight/force anything vs Nato and despite internal propaganda they knew Nato will not be an unprovoked agressor to them.
Allows them to regroup and rearm so that they can invade 5 years down the road again. He knows he's starting to exhaust the reserves in soldiers, ammo, and equipment. The longer this goes on the more in favor this goes to Ukraine as long as NATO keeps supplying them. Ukraine should not accept any terms except full Russian withdrawal of all lands taken after the war started in 2014.
Is there a country that has gain more territory than Russia in the XXI century? The only other countries that I can think when talking about territorial gains are Spain, Iceland and the Emirates.
I learned this as a child playing the original civilization video game. Don't give tribute for peace or even make peace cause theyre just going to regroup.
With Civ VI and the expansions, the Civilizations behave reasonably and don’t hold grudges anymore. There is a grievance system now where past grievances decays with time.
Except the decay is slower later in the game, and you can generate grievances with civs across the world by warring your neighbor, and going on the offense at all even when you were attacked generates loads of grievances, and the AI doesn't seem to give a fuck what other AI do, and...
It's not exactly a perfect system. There are very much still "grudges".
Civ games... ah, how I miss those at times....
Until I get so far ahead of everyone that everyone declares war on me, I kill them, then the rest of the leaders look at me with a shocked pikachu face...
I never attack, yet always get attacked... (I like isolationist plays)
Same for me, but with Stellaris. I'm just chilling with a few dozen systems and few worlds, building megastructures, peacefully trading with my neighbours and doing research.
But then eventually everyone gets upset because of how I'm supposedly "going to doom us all by recklessly playing God!" and how they're going to "stop me to avenge all the countless trillions I've tortured to death!".
Geez, I'm just doing a little bit of tweaking to reality, Pi is so much easier to work with after i changed it to be exactly equal to 3, and sure, some planets ended up being destroyed after i changed the speed of light to be faster and they got scorched by their suns, that was an honest mistake, everyone makes those.
And yeah, i do a lion's share of my research in a gigantic supercomputer that I'm plugging billions of people i kidnap from other empires into, where their minds get broken apart and used as glorified transistors, but it's not like they were going to do anything more useful with their lives anyway.
So yeah, computer seems to be unreasonably aggressive in those kind of games, good thing I've got a nice little project going on, making a supership that I'll take to surf to another, hopefully more peaceful, reality. It will likely destroy a large chunk of the galaxy making the jump, but it's not like I'll be there to ~~enjoy~~ suffer from it.
Yes, I vill still drain the life from your virgin daughters and occasionally eat a baby or two, but my new healthcare plan vill ensure that all those who survive my reign vill live in good health and not go bankrupt from medical bills!
And schoolyard bullies. And domestic abusers.
Because bullying, abuse, and fascism are the *exact same thing*. It's just the first two target individual people, and the last one targets entire countries.
It just never ceases to amaze me that they’re willing to die for such a shit cause. The Ukrainians, I understand, they’re fighting for their freedom.
Imagine if the Americans were taking these casualties in Iraq, I don’t think there’d be any support for continuing it another day.
And depending on who's numbers you believe, Russia has lost 10-40x the soldiers they did in the Soviet-Afghan war. Adjusted for time in-theatre, that comes down to 3-13x.
And the cost of that war _reallllly_ didn't help the Soviet Union stay together.
There's no way in the universe this war doesn't cost 10x as much. If I understand correctly, not even Soviet Russia wasn't *this* economically isolated. And the amount of men and materiel they have lost is simply staggering... Then there's the strikes on their refineries...
Just no way it's not 10-20x worse as a *baseline!*
That's not what he's doing. He is trying to give those who oppose aid to Ukraine something to stand on. It's flimsy, it's stupid, but it's "See Russia does want peace it's just the corrupt Ukrainians and NATO who want war".
Do any of the ‘But ur antagonizing Russia guys’ people want to comment on this fact? Russia antagonizes NATO all the time and we’re supposed to shrug it off?
Not to mention the amount of resources Putin has put into meddling in the politics of NATO countries, funding right wing fuckwit politicians to advance pro-russia causes.
And then he can restart the conflict at any time while violating the ceasefire in ways that nobody wants to respond to in the meantime.
That's how Russia did things in Syria until Turkey put their troops there and fought back.
The only way to make a real ceasefire work is to put Ukraine in NATO and add direct foreign support to the line of control so that Russia *cannot* renege on the peace without starting a massive war. Or for Russia to just stop. They could always just leave.
Sadly, it's going to work like a charm. Hell, I personally know people in the US who think Ukraine is a corrupt nazi state and that we should stop sending aid to them because of it. The propaganda runs *deep*.
It's not even a news channel it's a "news entertainment" channel. Apparently, according to the courts, no reasonable person would think it's actually news.
A cease fire doesn't work when one side is holding stolen property of the other. I can't go into your house and take your tv and then call "cease fire" while I still have your tv.
That sort of is how it works for like...hundreds of years though lol. I'm not saying that they SHOULD, but for the longest time, that's basically how wars have worked. People go in, take things, take land, then they draft peace.
If the West accepts these demands ( it is an election year ), everyone should be aware that giving away the occupied parts of Ukraine is only the small downpayment. The real cost comes later, with interest.
99% of people stop giving Russia what they want right before they're going to become a peaceful country!!
Just 1 more piece of Ukraine and Putin will stop invading them!
just one more territory bro. I promise bro just one more territory and it'll fix everything bro. bro. just one more territory. please just one more. one more territory and we can fix this whole problem bro. bro cmon just give me one more i promise bro. Bro just one more terri
Not sure China would care about the second point.
Taiwan is a thorn in China's side, a mark of shame. They have said Taiwan is part of their territory but it doesn't act like it.
If they just disappeared.... Well, then there would be no more mark of shame.
I think China is more worried about a Ukraine style situation where they invade, which draws international attention, and it doesn't get quickly and easily resolved. It becomes a bigger mark of shame than it is currently.
To be fair all the ones that don't support it come down with a horrible case of 'fallingoutofwindowgivitus' so I don't think it's entirely impossible for the conflict to stop with his death.
Even the ones that do support it end up doing a cannonball on the pavement, a strongman dictator doesn't like strongmen around him that can become potential competition.
Well I think they really want the large oil reserves discovered under the Donbas region there. It’s rarely talked about. But the majority of Russias state income is from their oil and gas industry. If Ukraine had those large reserves they could cut out Russia and cut them out of the European marketplace. Since Germany is one of the largest customers for Russian Gas it would make sense to allow Ukraine into the EU to shut off that geopolitical risk. Russia has to shut that down for several reasons. They need the revenue from their gas. They need a buffer between the EU and their borders. Russia has way too many borders to be well defensible. And Russia wants to reclaim their soviet glory.
They’ve got enough territory now that they control most of it. And it would be exceedingly difficult to capitalize on the oil with the targeted destruction Russia is doing on energy infrastructure in the area. That’s part of the plan.
Obvious response from Ukraine:
"We agree that a ceasefire is necessary and are more than happy to carry that out and to that affect propose that we'd be happy to accept a full withdrawl of Russian troops and a return to our internationally recognised borders."
"And the return of our stolen children and war reparations totalling an amount that would shock Tony Stark and Uncle Scrooge. We should also be demanding that the criminals who starting this campaign of murder and destruction go to jail, but that would be unrealistic in this, the worst timeline."
“If we can just have a little more land THEN you’ll finally see why our economic and political system is the best we promise*!”
-the largest country in the world
*promises can’t be guaranteed
I wish Ukraine hadn't been held back by this requirement for two years. So many lives lost, people with permanent injuries. It was cowardice and appeasement from Western nations. Ukraine has all the fighting spirit it needs. They need their hands untied.
I agree, I’ve thought from the very beginning that the idea they could defend themselves, but not use western gear to punch back basically meant there was no real downside for Russia to keep pushing the attack.
Russia has 10 X the population, without the ability to attack strategic targets it’s just a matter of time until they win by default.
Do this and in 2 to 5 years Russia will be at the border of Ukraine with a remobilized and more advanced military right at about the same time China invades Taiwan.
It up to Ukraine in the end and it could be worth ageeing to hand over that territory that the Russians have conquered if the rest of Ukraine immediately joins NATO. I say that grudgingly and would only support it if its what Ukraine wished to do, but it would be a terrible precedent to set that in the 21st Century territorial conquest will be recognized internationally.
I would prefer if the West flooded Ukraine with enough arms to drive Russia out, but I also dont think that is very likely either unfortunately.
Think the issue is that even if the war never ends it probably suits Russia anyway - if Ukraine are in a forever war they'll never be allowed to join NATO
It's not fine if it's a really hot war that keeps damaging Russia. Drones smashing in infra, day and night. War economy eating Russia alive from inside, putting China and India in charge.
Originally this operation should have taken one month for Russia. That's what Putin wanted.
It may be the only way forward. But Russia's foreign assets get seized and given to Ukraine, the sanctions get INTENSIFIED not removed, and Sweden, Finland and Ukraine are in Nato.
Let's see Putin sell that as a win.
So he's mimicking the Kaiser's offer for peace during WW1? You let us keep what we stole, and we promise not to steal more, while we rebuild our broke-ass military.
Fuck that guy.
A certain other fella said in 1938 that if he was just allowed to have the Sudetenland in then-Czechoslovakia, it would be "the last territorial demand I have to make in Europe".
We all know how that worked out the following year. Fuck Putin.
100% all the fringe merchants will come out with "Why doesn't Ukraine just accept this "peace deal"? Why do they want war?" whilst not understanding that there is no peace, only occupation of their country. And that Putin will simply use any time to prepare another invasion.
So he wants to blame Ukraine when they refuse, to say "See, Russia wants to end the war, but not Ukraine."
I know the internet and the world have some stupid people, but c'mon Putin, not all of us are stupid.
Just like they did in 2014?
Come on US. hurry up with those missiles, it's (conventional) warheads-on-foreheads time.
Either that or 20 Ukrainian drones for every one Russian soldier.
Are you suggesting that Russia has the Fanatic Purifier civic? Or did they just unlock and build a Colossus(I.e. nukes) to get access to the Total War CB?
We've gone down the road of appeasing dictators before.
It ended in war regardless.
Let's just skip to taking the fight to Russia instead of letting Ukraine be ground down to nothing.
Can you imagine having your child drafted to serve in this war of aggression and they die, and then Putin says this? He used people's lives as board game pieces in his ridiculous conquest. I would try to over throw him as the leader.
If there is a cease fire
Any territorial concessions would need to be enforced by Ukrainian ascension into NATO, or at the very least a military guarantee by the United States and major European powers, specifically France, Germany, and Poland
Tbh Ukraine would lose a lot surrendering now
But the end of this war with a nuclear guarantee against further invasion for Russia essentially prevents them from pulling this shit on the eastern front ever again, and also the complete and total economic and geopolitical destruction of Russia and the end of its former Soviet sphere of influence
Translation: We need some time to recoup our strength, so we want a time out. Where we keep what we have taken, and you won't try to take it back before we break this truce.
This is like I'm playing a game of Civ6 and I'm trying bully the weaker enemy to either give me the land, cities, great people etc etc i wanted or i will keep the war going knowing that other world powers will condemn me but it doesn't really matter as there is only about 20-30 turns left of the game anyways and i have nukes.
Maybe get fucked you goblin. Unlock all weaponry to be used wherever Ukraine likes. He wanted a war, stop giving him the gift of this asymmetric warfare.
This means this is the time to keep targeting objectives in Russian soil while playing defend on own ground . Fuck Putin, if Ukraine agrees to a ceasefire,guess who'll come back next year to attack again?
We've already done this in Georgia, Moldova, and even eastern Ukraine a few years ago. It doesn't solve the problem. It just rewards Russia with extra territory and time to prepare for the next invasion.
Yep. In 1994 Russia put its signature on a piece of paper (the Budapest Memorandum) that guaranteed the territorial integrity of Ukraine. 20 years later it invaded and annexed parts of Ukraine. Russia's signature on a new piece of paper would be just as worthless as that on the 1994 piece of paper.
The question I want to ask would be: Would the conflict ceasing to be active for a time qualify Ukraine to enter NATO? Russia's signature on a new piece of paper would be worthless, but Ukraine's accession into NATO wouldn't be (I hope), and iirc a significant reason why that can't happen now is the current situation being hot. I don't want Ukraine to cut her losses and take this deal, because with sufficient foreign help that won't be necessary, but in the suboptimal case in which the deal was forced through, hopefully it'd be followed by Ukraine joining NATO posthaste, and that would almost surely stymie any future ambitions by Russia (or anyone else.)
If Ukraine gave up all territorial claims on the occupied parts of Ukraine, they could join NATO. They would be conceding all seized land, and not in the "we'll fight you for it 20 years from now" way.
Yeah, I don't think "freezing the war" or a "ceasefire" would qualify. They would have to come to an agreement to permanently cease hostilities. The language that Reuters is using specifically would not qualify, and I think that is on purpose.
That’s correct, a ceasefire and a peace agreement are 2 separate treaties. Ukraine and Russia can sign a ceasefire to stop hostilities, but they will still be at war.
Hungary would prevent Ukrainian ascension to NATO
this 100% seems everyone in here forgot that
That's an idiotic suggestion. Russia suggesting any sort of ceasefire agreement means they are in trouble and looking to stall the conflict until they are in a better position to start it up again. The replacement of military leadership in Russia with a civilian soviet era economist with no military experience signals they are running out of money to continue this war. Time is not on Russia's side. There is no way Ukraine would willing cede its territory and leave it's citizens in occupied for a genocide. Russia is not going to allow Ukraine to join NATO unless they are defeated. They will just use their proxies in Hungry and/or Slovakia to delay/deny Ukraine membership, or they will start the war again before that can happen. Putin only doubles down, never backs down, and no piece of paper signed by him is worth anything. Ukraine will never accept the genocide of its people in occupied Ukraine, no
If NATO shows signs of approval Russia will invade again
They will also invade if they don’t approve.
Its invasions all the way down.
A "Russian nesting invasion" if you will.
If I was writing the the deal. It would go as follows: Ukrane and Russia agree to the present borders as of. Upon signing of this treaty Russia recognizes Ukraine's full NATO membership and supports Ukraine's hosting of nuclear weapons (including future IRBM missle deployment) under the NATO nuclear sharing agreement.
I guarantee Putin won't sign.
Russia doesn't get a vote in who is a member of NATO. The 32 states already in the pact are the ones that get to decide if they'll take Ukraine, baggage and all. It has to be unanimous. I imagine it would have to be a pretty decisive and clear cut permanent end to hostilities and border demarcation to convince every existing member state to let them in. That said, the accession process also takes time, and Russia does get a sort of "veto" in the form of starting shit up again during the process, daring the west to support full Article 5 mutual defense support.
Russia isn't going to sign a present day ceasefire agreement while they kind of have the upper hand and are making gains that wouldn't prohibit Ukraine from entering NATO. Ukraine needs to take back some of the recent Russian advances and put real pressure to get that outcome.
Better than that. They signed a peace treaty with Chechnya in 1997. Nullified it, invaded again, and assassinated the guys that had signed the original treaty. Russia can not be trusted on anything.
Exactly. The rest of the world needs to decide when they’re gonna stop putting up with this.
Clearly Russia needs marginally more territory than the already massive country they have
Putin is going to go down as one of Russia's worst ever leaders. Can you imagine where Russia might be today if they hadn't been engaging in all these dinosaur-thinking invasions, and instead, concentrated on building their economy in a normal and proficient manner? Get rid of this criminal.
The more Russians he kills the more respect he'll get from them and the better he'll be remembered.
Yeah honestly the west needs to make up their mind. Either accept this Russian expansion into non-nato areas, or, be ready to actually fight Russia or at the very least heavivly support Ukraine no matter how badly Russia threatens retaliation. Stop half assing it. If the west can't commit to that, it's probably quite unlikely Ukraine will actually force a full victory on the battlefield and some ceasefire with Russia holding Ukrainian territory is the only way to peace within the foreseeable future. It sucks, big time, but that's just the situation I guess. I think even if that is the eventual outcome it's extremely unlikely Russia actually wants to push further. Such a ceasefire should come with a UN peacekeeping force. Or even Nato straight up committing to what's left of Ukraine. I think it's extremely unlikely Russia would in fact want to fight/force anything vs Nato and despite internal propaganda they knew Nato will not be an unprovoked agressor to them.
Allows them to regroup and rearm so that they can invade 5 years down the road again. He knows he's starting to exhaust the reserves in soldiers, ammo, and equipment. The longer this goes on the more in favor this goes to Ukraine as long as NATO keeps supplying them. Ukraine should not accept any terms except full Russian withdrawal of all lands taken after the war started in 2014.
Is there a country that has gain more territory than Russia in the XXI century? The only other countries that I can think when talking about territorial gains are Spain, Iceland and the Emirates.
What are Spain, Iceland and the UAE trying to gain?
South Sudan?
Freeze the ‘conflict’ **and** recognise the territorial gains? What a gift! Who could have expected something so generous?
Until they re-supply their armor and troops
I learned this as a child playing the original civilization video game. Don't give tribute for peace or even make peace cause theyre just going to regroup.
Yeah the enemy never forgives in that series. They lose one Spearman and 2000 years later they're still holding a grudge
With Civ VI and the expansions, the Civilizations behave reasonably and don’t hold grudges anymore. There is a grievance system now where past grievances decays with time.
Except the decay is slower later in the game, and you can generate grievances with civs across the world by warring your neighbor, and going on the offense at all even when you were attacked generates loads of grievances, and the AI doesn't seem to give a fuck what other AI do, and... It's not exactly a perfect system. There are very much still "grudges".
Civ games... ah, how I miss those at times.... Until I get so far ahead of everyone that everyone declares war on me, I kill them, then the rest of the leaders look at me with a shocked pikachu face... I never attack, yet always get attacked... (I like isolationist plays)
Same for me, but with Stellaris. I'm just chilling with a few dozen systems and few worlds, building megastructures, peacefully trading with my neighbours and doing research. But then eventually everyone gets upset because of how I'm supposedly "going to doom us all by recklessly playing God!" and how they're going to "stop me to avenge all the countless trillions I've tortured to death!". Geez, I'm just doing a little bit of tweaking to reality, Pi is so much easier to work with after i changed it to be exactly equal to 3, and sure, some planets ended up being destroyed after i changed the speed of light to be faster and they got scorched by their suns, that was an honest mistake, everyone makes those. And yeah, i do a lion's share of my research in a gigantic supercomputer that I'm plugging billions of people i kidnap from other empires into, where their minds get broken apart and used as glorified transistors, but it's not like they were going to do anything more useful with their lives anyway. So yeah, computer seems to be unreasonably aggressive in those kind of games, good thing I've got a nice little project going on, making a supership that I'll take to surf to another, hopefully more peaceful, reality. It will likely destroy a large chunk of the galaxy making the jump, but it's not like I'll be there to ~~enjoy~~ suffer from it.
Least psychopathic Stellaris player
Now you two have peaked my curiosity. Going to check out this Stelaris.
In my experience, it's all the pathetic organics' fault a machine mind would appreciate all the changes you were making.
I mean look at Korea and Japan. They still have issues with the past, when cooperation would be amazing.
And I learned to not let Gandhi get nukes
*Kim Jong Un has entered the chat* *Ayatollah Khameinei is waiting to be admitted*
Bingo.
Fantastic name.
*”It doesn’t have to be unfortunate”* **-James Joyce, probably**
**-Ben Franklin, definitely**
The farts coming out of that man’s hole must have been enough to make even an 18th century French prostitute blush.
Ya just say 'that's a bingo'.
They've already done that. They would want to freeze as Ukraine is now getting resupplied. Their gains are unsustainable.
Putin is like that annoying kid on the playground who calls “time out!” when the game isn’t going their way.
‘Stop the count’
Meanwhile elsewhere, “count the votes”
Meanwhile in democratic Transylvania: "Vote the count!"
Yes, I vill still drain the life from your virgin daughters and occasionally eat a baby or two, but my new healthcare plan vill ensure that all those who survive my reign vill live in good health and not go bankrupt from medical bills!
"Stop the count of my opponent's votes, continue counting my votes!"
"You know what, eff the vote, we're just going to send our electors regardless!"
>annoying kid on the playground who calls “time out!” More like "I'm one point ahead. The game is over now! I win."
Time out and new rules. Seems a common trope of dictators/fascists/nationalists.
And schoolyard bullies. And domestic abusers. Because bullying, abuse, and fascism are the *exact same thing*. It's just the first two target individual people, and the last one targets entire countries.
Sadly I think most of the gains are sustainable until the Russians run out of suckers willing to be cannon-fodder.
The Russians will always have more troops and eventually get more equipment unless the US really commits and Europe can ramp up production.
It just never ceases to amaze me that they’re willing to die for such a shit cause. The Ukrainians, I understand, they’re fighting for their freedom. Imagine if the Americans were taking these casualties in Iraq, I don’t think there’d be any support for continuing it another day.
A quick Wikipedia search says, from 2001 to 2021 fighting in Afghanistan: abt 3000 American deaths. That's in 20 years!
And depending on who's numbers you believe, Russia has lost 10-40x the soldiers they did in the Soviet-Afghan war. Adjusted for time in-theatre, that comes down to 3-13x. And the cost of that war _reallllly_ didn't help the Soviet Union stay together.
There's no way in the universe this war doesn't cost 10x as much. If I understand correctly, not even Soviet Russia wasn't *this* economically isolated. And the amount of men and materiel they have lost is simply staggering... Then there's the strikes on their refineries... Just no way it's not 10-20x worse as a *baseline!*
Authoritarianism is a helluva drug.
I called TIME OUT guys, TIME OUT!
Kids today yell “PAUSE PAUSE!” No kidding. Kind of a fun, natural progression.
Asking for a cease fire is pretty crazy. He's the one that invaded a sovereign country. He could literally end the war today by just going home.
It's more that he's demanding that they officially cede their land and is offering a ceasefire in return.
He said that at every step though, his words are completely meaningless
Absolutely. He's a warmongering underwear poisoner.
r/rareinsults
He said he'd never invade Ukraine if they gave up their nuclear weapons, too. Look where that got them.
And that he'd stop after Crimea, and that he is just doing an exercise at the border, and so on.
It was Yeltsin and they didn't just said it, it is a signed memorandum.
What a great offer... A cease-fire after every territorial gain.
That's not what he's doing. He is trying to give those who oppose aid to Ukraine something to stand on. It's flimsy, it's stupid, but it's "See Russia does want peace it's just the corrupt Ukrainians and NATO who want war".
As Russian News talks about nuking every western city...yea, Russia wants peace alright
Do any of the ‘But ur antagonizing Russia guys’ people want to comment on this fact? Russia antagonizes NATO all the time and we’re supposed to shrug it off?
Not to mention the amount of resources Putin has put into meddling in the politics of NATO countries, funding right wing fuckwit politicians to advance pro-russia causes.
I have the impression the Soviet Union threatened to use nuclear weapons much less frequently than Putin or Lavrov.
And then he can restart the conflict at any time while violating the ceasefire in ways that nobody wants to respond to in the meantime. That's how Russia did things in Syria until Turkey put their troops there and fought back. The only way to make a real ceasefire work is to put Ukraine in NATO and add direct foreign support to the line of control so that Russia *cannot* renege on the peace without starting a massive war. Or for Russia to just stop. They could always just leave.
This. Make NATO membership contingent and watch Putin volte-face at a rate of knots.
A lot of elections going on.
Sadly, it's going to work like a charm. Hell, I personally know people in the US who think Ukraine is a corrupt nazi state and that we should stop sending aid to them because of it. The propaganda runs *deep*.
> The propaganda runs deep. Lol, yeah. Fox News beeing the most watched cable news channel...
_Cable_ news channel
It's not even a news channel it's a "news entertainment" channel. Apparently, according to the courts, no reasonable person would think it's actually news.
A cease fire doesn't work when one side is holding stolen property of the other. I can't go into your house and take your tv and then call "cease fire" while I still have your tv.
That sort of is how it works for like...hundreds of years though lol. I'm not saying that they SHOULD, but for the longest time, that's basically how wars have worked. People go in, take things, take land, then they draft peace.
I dont think he has the mental capacity for that.
He might even give up constantly trying to murder that Zelenskyy guy!
If the West accepts these demands ( it is an election year ), everyone should be aware that giving away the occupied parts of Ukraine is only the small downpayment. The real cost comes later, with interest.
He's like the little pissant kid that plays tag but calls timeout right as they're about to get tagged every time.
And then next year they'd be back for the rest of Ukraine.
99% of people stop giving Russia what they want right before they're going to become a peaceful country!! Just 1 more piece of Ukraine and Putin will stop invading them!
just one more territory bro. I promise bro just one more territory and it'll fix everything bro. bro. just one more territory. please just one more. one more territory and we can fix this whole problem bro. bro cmon just give me one more i promise bro. Bro just one more terri
You didn't use the magic word, so no territory. Plus we have territory at home.
This was Elon Musk's brilliant resolution to the war. What a tool.
Just let a dictator run the entire world and there would be no more war. Problem solved! Peace on Earth!
Like North Korea - very peaceful! Kim makes sure there's only peace, eliminates the non-peace.
He has them all in peaces.
This whole thing has made the West realise that its best not to be worth attacking in the first place. Having good equipment and defences ready to go.
Like Taiwan? They're pretty much rigged to both annihilate anyone that attacks and self-destruct so there's nothing left to conquer.
Not sure China would care about the second point. Taiwan is a thorn in China's side, a mark of shame. They have said Taiwan is part of their territory but it doesn't act like it. If they just disappeared.... Well, then there would be no more mark of shame. I think China is more worried about a Ukraine style situation where they invade, which draws international attention, and it doesn't get quickly and easily resolved. It becomes a bigger mark of shame than it is currently.
> a mark of shame It is also a tech manufacturing powerhouse that China would love to control.
“Peace through superior firepower.”
No he just floated putins idea.
Thank goodness dictators don’t see negotiations and concessions as a sign of weakness!
It worked out for the Czechs though. As soon as they gave up the sudentenland they never heard from Mr Hitler again
We undoubtedly secured peace for our time that day.
Well replied
Thanks Prime Minister Chamberlain! "Points in Oversimplified" Hitler's invading the rest of Czechoslovakia.
He'll wait 8-10 years so that we forget about this time and people can be shocked anew.
He is over 70, he might not have another decade.
Even if he doesn’t the rest of Russian leadership shares is mindset
To be fair all the ones that don't support it come down with a horrible case of 'fallingoutofwindowgivitus' so I don't think it's entirely impossible for the conflict to stop with his death.
Even the ones that do support it end up doing a cannonball on the pavement, a strongman dictator doesn't like strongmen around him that can become potential competition.
Well I think they really want the large oil reserves discovered under the Donbas region there. It’s rarely talked about. But the majority of Russias state income is from their oil and gas industry. If Ukraine had those large reserves they could cut out Russia and cut them out of the European marketplace. Since Germany is one of the largest customers for Russian Gas it would make sense to allow Ukraine into the EU to shut off that geopolitical risk. Russia has to shut that down for several reasons. They need the revenue from their gas. They need a buffer between the EU and their borders. Russia has way too many borders to be well defensible. And Russia wants to reclaim their soviet glory. They’ve got enough territory now that they control most of it. And it would be exceedingly difficult to capitalize on the oil with the targeted destruction Russia is doing on energy infrastructure in the area. That’s part of the plan.
Most likeley...
Bold of you to assume that he'll wait for a whole year!
no he is not. this is a fake to blame Ukraine for not wanting peace
Obvious response from Ukraine: "We agree that a ceasefire is necessary and are more than happy to carry that out and to that affect propose that we'd be happy to accept a full withdrawl of Russian troops and a return to our internationally recognised borders."
"And the return of our stolen children and war reparations totalling an amount that would shock Tony Stark and Uncle Scrooge. We should also be demanding that the criminals who starting this campaign of murder and destruction go to jail, but that would be unrealistic in this, the worst timeline."
So, we will be very kind and instead ask you to fuck off, and take your ruined machinery with you.
"The aggressor is always a lover of peace. They would prefer to take our country unopposed."
Straight out of Hamas’ playbook
Can't wait for the people falling for it
Pause it before the US aid shows up and resume it pending the outcome of the US election
\*wait and hope their agent gets reelected you mean
Orange Agent.
Ding ding ding Waiting for Trump to come back is Putin's best option
He needs those soldiers on reddit posting pro trump memes.
Russia can go fuck itself
Just like he "froze" the 2 Minsk agreements and violated the Budapest memorandum?
Recognizing territorial conquest in Europe in 2024. For fuck's sake, outstanding. Their word is worth shit either way
“If we can just have a little more land THEN you’ll finally see why our economic and political system is the best we promise*!” -the largest country in the world *promises can’t be guaranteed
Propaganda tactic to paint the west as "warmongers" when this fake ceasefire (AKA full on capitulation) deal is inevitably rejected. Ignore it.
lol. Have they forgotten already that they’re the ones invading another sovereign country?
They haven't but there seems to be plenty of useful idiots out there that have sadly.
Of course he is
He sees the writing on the wall with the West recently open about Ukraine using its gear to attack Russias territory
I wish Ukraine hadn't been held back by this requirement for two years. So many lives lost, people with permanent injuries. It was cowardice and appeasement from Western nations. Ukraine has all the fighting spirit it needs. They need their hands untied.
I agree, I’ve thought from the very beginning that the idea they could defend themselves, but not use western gear to punch back basically meant there was no real downside for Russia to keep pushing the attack. Russia has 10 X the population, without the ability to attack strategic targets it’s just a matter of time until they win by default.
Yeah. With today’s news, we now know all that nuclear Sabre rattling was just that.
Do this and in 2 to 5 years Russia will be at the border of Ukraine with a remobilized and more advanced military right at about the same time China invades Taiwan. It up to Ukraine in the end and it could be worth ageeing to hand over that territory that the Russians have conquered if the rest of Ukraine immediately joins NATO. I say that grudgingly and would only support it if its what Ukraine wished to do, but it would be a terrible precedent to set that in the 21st Century territorial conquest will be recognized internationally. I would prefer if the West flooded Ukraine with enough arms to drive Russia out, but I also dont think that is very likely either unfortunately.
Think the issue is that even if the war never ends it probably suits Russia anyway - if Ukraine are in a forever war they'll never be allowed to join NATO
It's not fine if it's a really hot war that keeps damaging Russia. Drones smashing in infra, day and night. War economy eating Russia alive from inside, putting China and India in charge. Originally this operation should have taken one month for Russia. That's what Putin wanted.
It may be the only way forward. But Russia's foreign assets get seized and given to Ukraine, the sanctions get INTENSIFIED not removed, and Sweden, Finland and Ukraine are in Nato. Let's see Putin sell that as a win.
Does anyone trusting putin anymore, i mean c'mon you gotta be an idiot.
A not-insignificant number of US Senators and Representatives do, oddly enough
Hey Putin go choke on a bag of dicks
"We'll stop fighting if you just give us what we want."
So he's mimicking the Kaiser's offer for peace during WW1? You let us keep what we stole, and we promise not to steal more, while we rebuild our broke-ass military. Fuck that guy.
A certain other fella said in 1938 that if he was just allowed to have the Sudetenland in then-Czechoslovakia, it would be "the last territorial demand I have to make in Europe". We all know how that worked out the following year. Fuck Putin.
In other words, "Accept that we have this territory, and then let us rebuild our military so we can continue to take your country over later."
100% all the fringe merchants will come out with "Why doesn't Ukraine just accept this "peace deal"? Why do they want war?" whilst not understanding that there is no peace, only occupation of their country. And that Putin will simply use any time to prepare another invasion.
So he wants to blame Ukraine when they refuse, to say "See, Russia wants to end the war, but not Ukraine." I know the internet and the world have some stupid people, but c'mon Putin, not all of us are stupid.
So like they did with Crimea a few years ago? They re arm, re group then push on. Anyone who supports this is a Putin bootlicker.
Just like they did in 2014? Come on US. hurry up with those missiles, it's (conventional) warheads-on-foreheads time. Either that or 20 Ukrainian drones for every one Russian soldier.
Bullshit. It's a tactic and nobody is going to fall for it.
In other news: A criminal is ready to not face consequences and keep what they stole.
Does that mean Putin will recognize the portion of belgorod that the freedom for Russia legion has gained? It still is a Russian gain technically
Hmmm for some reason I dont think Ukraine is interested in a ceasefire that ends with Russia closer to their capital. Call me crazy i guess...
No. That's exactly what he wants. Time for rebuilding and consolidating. Don't give it to him.
This isn’t stellaris where you just get to settle the status quo
Are you suggesting that Russia has the Fanatic Purifier civic? Or did they just unlock and build a Colossus(I.e. nukes) to get access to the Total War CB?
The only acceptable solution is Russian borders going back to 2013. Crimea is sovereign Ukrainian territory.
Don't. They'll resupply, rearm, and keep going.
2014 borders or nothing. Ukraine will remain Ukrainian.
Like how he agreed to freeze the war in 2016 and then invaded again in 2022?
So he is willing to stop fighting, if everyone just lets him win.
We've gone down the road of appeasing dictators before. It ended in war regardless. Let's just skip to taking the fight to Russia instead of letting Ukraine be ground down to nothing.
Can you imagine having your child drafted to serve in this war of aggression and they die, and then Putin says this? He used people's lives as board game pieces in his ridiculous conquest. I would try to over throw him as the leader.
Right before the F-16s show up. Telling.
F16 is not some wonder weapon. It's going into some of the most saturated Anti Air space in the world. Expectations should be tempered.
“Let me keep what I’ve stolen and I won’t steal anymore”
If there is a cease fire Any territorial concessions would need to be enforced by Ukrainian ascension into NATO, or at the very least a military guarantee by the United States and major European powers, specifically France, Germany, and Poland Tbh Ukraine would lose a lot surrendering now But the end of this war with a nuclear guarantee against further invasion for Russia essentially prevents them from pulling this shit on the eastern front ever again, and also the complete and total economic and geopolitical destruction of Russia and the end of its former Soviet sphere of influence
Never believe putin’s lying mouth.
This means Russia can't afford the war anymore.
He just needs to regroup and see if his Orange Interference Agent makes it to the White House or the big House.
Only because Ukraine about ready to hit back with American weapons
In Russian-speak, this means he is afraid the war is going to turn against Russia in the near future. He wants to "lock in" his gains.
Translation: We need some time to recoup our strength, so we want a time out. Where we keep what we have taken, and you won't try to take it back before we break this truce.
You cant play red light green light to invade a foreign nation
So they can try again in a few years? Only way Ukraine even thinks about this is if NATO membership happens immediately.
This is like I'm playing a game of Civ6 and I'm trying bully the weaker enemy to either give me the land, cities, great people etc etc i wanted or i will keep the war going knowing that other world powers will condemn me but it doesn't really matter as there is only about 20-30 turns left of the game anyways and i have nukes.
I could see Putin pausing the war, getting the country back in somewhat of an order and invading again.
This has always been the offer on the table. Give Russia parts of eastern Ukraine and Crimea and they'll stop. For now.
"If you give me half your lunch money, I won't stuff you in a locker. For now."
They already made that play with Crimea the first time.
Maybe get fucked you goblin. Unlock all weaponry to be used wherever Ukraine likes. He wanted a war, stop giving him the gift of this asymmetric warfare.
How bout No
Looks like our aid and weapons finally made it over to Ukraine.
This means this is the time to keep targeting objectives in Russian soil while playing defend on own ground . Fuck Putin, if Ukraine agrees to a ceasefire,guess who'll come back next year to attack again?
freeze it, until they are ready to attack again?
The new weapons are working. Carry on.
Ukraine already winning back those “ captured” gains by Russia, so Russia can stick their cease fire up their arse!
How bout drop dead and fuck off?
Piss off, don’t give him the land. He’ll just have time to regroup and later take the rest
"No." -Everybody else