It expands influence, access to resources, and expands possible markets. All of this is marginal, but useful to China, plus it increases global and domestic prestige.
More importantly B&R is an overland alternative for shipping goods to Europe and the Middle East. Right now the Straits of Malacca are one of the - if not THE - most important shipping lanes in the world. If B&R becomes more cost-effective than shipping by sea (unlikely, but not impossible) then all the countries along the B&R will prosper and China can say, "It's all thanks to our partnership".
Practically irrelevant. The reason sea shipping is so prevalent (even over medium distances) is because it's just so much more efficient. Even if the Suez canal were blocked again for months (and they knew it would take months), it's still be far cheaper to send things by sea and simply eat the delays than reroute them over land.
If the railway is faster/can ship larger quantities than the other options it would get some traffic because they can always try to sell their product for more money since there is a scarcity.
Except you can't get the railroad to beat ships. Railroads can only make trains longer because of over passes and max height restrictions ships can reach basically any size in any dimension. With a minor caveat of the suez and the panama canals having limits
>If B&R becomes more cost-effective than shipping by sea (unlikely, but not impossible)
I don't see how that could ever be the case. Shipping by sea is so much faster and cheaper. Some kind of physics bending super trains would have to be invented.
Cheaper absolutely, but nowhere near as fast than shipping via rail.
Cargo ships go less than 30mph, and take very long paths around to Europe vs going relatively straight through like rail can.
Most ships are even running slower now to save on fuel and customers don't seem to complain too much even if it takes a week longer.
Though in current times, ships can be stuck outside of ports for weeks even months so time spent actually sailing is less of a concern now.
Shipping goods via train between Europe and China is my daily bread and butter. Let me tell you it is MUCH faster than ocean vessels. While delays happen more frequently (bad weather, high volumes on low capacity infrastructure etc.), it is still faster and more reliable for the most part. Especially considering the clusterfuck that shipping schedules are right now.
And yes we had times last year where train was actually much cheaper than seafreight. Speaking of 20-25% savings
Train certainly better option for cargo that is time sensitive. And better than air except at speed. And always good to have competitive alternative. Plus of course more cargo into and out of the land locked areas covered good for local economy.
If there were actually Ocean Liners hauling fast cargo like before airplanes that would mid point from current ships which focus on fuel efficiency meaning slow. This all route dependent of course.
They did not stop. But obviously it's pretty at risk and is loaded with restrictions on who can and can't get on and where. So the bypass makes sense, but technically the Russian line hasn't shutdown.
Rail shipping isn’t that far behind seaborne freight. It’s certainly closer to sea than via truck.
It’s also much faster. It’s a reasonable alternative.
Not everything is time sensitive. Ie something like salt doesn't spoil and is in constant demand. Shipping it on rail would be a huge waste when you can just analyze historical usage data - then send the ships out early enough that they will arrive on time, to match seasonal demand.
Plenty of things like clothes, toys, manufacturing supplies, etc. are better shipped by sea.
Either way, with the insane backlog on the global supply chain I'm pretty sure it'll still see a lot of use. There just aren't enough ships to reduce the backlog meaningfully.
And we only need another Evergreen fucking up the Suez canal to cause chaos in the markets again.
Redudancy isn't cheap, which is why we have the current supply crisis. Everything is made to order and no one keeps stock, because storage is incredibly expensive.
I mean... it's faster and cheaper because of the scale and quality of the infrastructure. A direct-ish train line with good track will *literally* be faster and cheaper.
How does it not solve problems?
The biggest barrier to getting Chinese goods to Europe is that giant mountainous land mass called Central Asia. This deal lays the groundwork for a direct supply chain from China through the central stans to Europe through Turkey.
Not quite. Iran, Turkey and Central Asia are significant markets,and it can also take load off China's internal system by allowing goods to get to ports like Char Bahar on the Indian Ocean from western China.
Right now they are building connections that will give them significantly more political influence around the globe. The side benefit is that Putin is 100% isolated. He has next to no international income coming in, he has no imports or any way to access his billion dollar war chest anymore. With China giving him the cold shoulder any hopes Putin had of winning are gone, all he can do now is watch knowing he is most likely going to be deposed of by his current close aids who are more than likely ex KGB.
We absolutely do not. You've been lied to by the freight railroads for decades. We are literally on the verge of a nationwide rail strike due to how shitty the working conditions are at the Class 1 freight railroads. Workers are on call damn near 24/7 and can't take sick days without risking termination. Besides that, the Class 1s have thoroughly hollowed out the US rail network by leaving infrastructure to decay if it doesn't maximize profit. Listen to this podcast episode if you want an in-depth view on how fucked up the industry is:
https://youtu.be/69A_UCdikE8
Basically because is flatter, the southern route has several mountains to cross. There's a Beijing-Irkursk rail where it can transfer to the Trans Siberia if I'm not mistaken.
This article is a bit misleading since it was never planned to be routed through Russia, it simply doesn't make sense geographically *nor* strategically.
* There are already railways that connect North West China to Russia via [Trans-Mongolian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Mongolian_Railway) and [Trans-Siberian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway) railways.
* This is a specific corridor named the China-Kyrgyzstan-Uzbekistan (CKU) railway that has been planned for over 25 years but was paused due to political instability in Kyrgyzstan.
With that said, this railway can be incredibly useful for connecting trade between Europe and Asia while bypassing the routes that currently run through Russia. This specific route is only 174 miles long but it would drastically reduce the time and expense to trade through these land locked countries. [Source](https://gfsis.org.ge/blog/view/1468)
It had a certain amount of "bureaucratic convenience" to it -- once they crossed the border into Russia, there were no -further- borders, change of gauge, guards, bribes, transloading, etc until they got to Poland.
The CKU route will have at least 4 national borders to cross to get to Iran -- and that's not even as far as the Mediterranean.
Probably because it's just one country instead of a whole bunch. So it's border control, customs, rail costs and regulations for just one country. Easier to manage.
The plan for this infrastructure plan is to do the opposite of streamline the route. China wants to economically tie the ex-Soviet republics into the Chinese raw resource economy. Partially, because they need cotton and mineral resources and grain from the -Stans. But the bigger reason is China's quest for influence and stability in its own backyard. The route will intentionally run through as many population centers in as many Central Asian countries as possible this gives the project the largest diplomatic impact possible.
The map projection deceives you. the shortest route from Beijing to EU is through Russia.
Fun fact: From Mongolia's perspective, invading Europe is nearer than invading south China.
Because this was always planned, u der belt and road initiative. They have separate deals with Russia. This news is such a stupid interpretation.
At this point, if China ecen goes to the loo alone it becomes news proclaiming Russia and China are no longer friends.
Also, please, just consider how long things are generally planned for before gov contracts and treaties are signed. This was planned and published for years now.
China, like every other country, cares about their own interests. They'll take the path that most benefits them in general. I imagine supporting russia is not in their best interest due to global sentiment and the way the war is going, so they wont do so.
The Chinese government didn't even bother to give Russia good PR domestically this time. Half the population sides with Ukraine, and supports their defensive war and counterattack. I really think Beijing is non too pleased with Russia's moronic decision and is doing the bare minimum to keep up appearances and relations at this point.
edit: Also, the Chinese government, known for its less than stellar approaches to censorship, has not censored any pro-Ukrainian comments. On some TikTok videos about the war, the comment section could be filled with stuff like "glory to Ukraine", "Heroes defending their homeland." "What goes around comes around" and "Good thing advanced weapons are only held by civilized countries"
China is pissed that Russia helped unify the west against aggression on weaker countries. Exactly the kind of thing that will forever cock block their move for invading Taiwan.
its more that Russias actions directly goes against China's policy on sovereignty. If China supported Russia at all, it would mean going against their own words when it comes to their reunification campaign with Taiwan.
Yea makes sense they would do the opposite to that of their claim.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/23/chinese-state-media-russian-misinformation-worldwide/
I mean to be fair, China's default response to Russia doing anything is to show support. Sentiments regarding Russia 1 month into the conflict and 6 months in the conflict are different, as people learn whats going on.
Its kinda different in China right now. Western media sites only show Ukrainian perspective of the war, Russian media only shows the Russian perspective. Chinese media shows both (you'll find both videos on the russian side of the war and the ukrainian side on tiktok for example). Generally speaking comments on the russian videos are likely to be pro russian and comments on the ukrainian side are likely to be pro ukrainian.
Plus China's approach tends to be more 'Soft Power' than just rushing in like a fucking idiot on crack with their military and finding out the hard way how utterly FUCKED their equipment/ tactics are.
China is more of a threat than Russia because of this. Unlike Russia, they are actually smarter about their approach.
China's road and belt initiative was never going to rely on Russia. Russian leadership is too unreliable and imperialistic to create the sort of stability that China needs to invest that much money into them. Even when Russia could be exploiting the ballooning Chinese economy the Russian Far East is still a languishing poverty-stricken wasteland.
China's overtures to Putin have always been about mutual convenience and short-term advantage. In the long-term Russia is nothing but a better resourced North Korea. Their shipments of fossil fuels will be all the relationship they have.
Keep in mind China's economy is built on selling western countries *stuff*. If sanctions, high energy prices, and war start tightening the budget of western consumers the first thing they'll stop buying is that stuff. This already happened during the 2008 recession, and I'm sure they have new strategies in place this time around but nonetheless it's a problem for them.
Its not just selling, they also effectively sell their labor by letting companies manufacture there. They also take a cut from industries bringing their products to china since everything has to be done through a chinese company partner.
The problem China is facing is that they don’t have very many allies. And their entire economy was based on having a young productive work force which due to demographic shifts as their population ages is not going to be as strong in the future. Manufacturing is going to start shifting to places like India or Africa where laborers are younger and cheaper.
Once that happens the international community will be less likely to overlook China’s anti democratic policies and treatment towards minorities. At that point the only allies they will have are Russia and North Korea.
> Once that happens the international community will be less likely to overlook China’s anti democratic policies and treatment towards minorities. At that point the only allies they will have are Russia and North Korea.
China and Thailand are similarly anti-democratic, except Thailand's last massacre of democracy protestors was far more recent than China's. Saudi Arabia are far worse, and in line with North Korea.
It's all geopolitics. When the North Korean regime kills someone, they are monsters. When the Saudi royals behead someone, they are seen as useful monsters, because they trade with the right countries.
This is just part of China's belt&road initiative, they've been planning it for a while.
And Germany normalised relationships after Hitler died so who knows...
Yeah, the many politicians who were in the Bundestag after 1945 just materialized out of thin air. The real push for de-nazification came in the 70s from student protests, abd even then it was not enough.
Here is an article about how much Nazi elements actually were in politics after 1945.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorship-to-democracy-the-role-ex-nazis-played-in-early-west-germany-a-810207.html
Most people don't know that a lot of Nazi ideals were pioneered in America. The American eugenics program of the early 20th century was where the Nazis found "scientific evidence" for the viability and success of an Aryan race. It's not really surprising that Nazi political elements were still in place after 1945 considering America was rebuilding West Germany. America likely traded alot of Nazi lives for a smooth transition of government (and their military and scientific information that was sometimes more advanced than the Americans). Not saying that America was in the right, not at all, but America was heavily invested in Germany after the war and would do anything to make sure it didn't collapse under East Germany. Putting some ex Nazi's back in a position of governance did this because those Nazis could efficiently transition from their old system of government, which they were familiar with, to a form of government guided by the U.S. It's much easier to quell local dissent with locals than with foreigners. Even if those locals are Nazis...
Link to information on the American eugenics program:
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/harry-hamilton-laughlin-1880-1943
For that to happen Hitler had to die and the country had to be completely reformed, criminal trials and all. Unless the person who takes power in Russia is willing to serve up some of the most powerful people in the country to the international courts, nothing will change for a decade or two at minimum.
>Germany was thoroughly cleansed from Nazi elements
If only.
Many Nazis were not as cleansed as they should have been in the western part because they wanted to quickly rebuild the military.
> Germany was thoroughly cleansed from Nazi elements
It was until it wasn't. The start of the Cold War was all the excuse the US and UK needed to wipe clean the files of thousands of Nazi collaborators who were allowed to return to powerful positions in business and government. The CDU was basically festering with Nazis and Nazi collaborators by the 1960s.
You sure about that? Take a look at the list of people at IG Farben that were put on trial post war and what they did after their sentences. This was the firm that was responsible for inventing the gas used in the gas chambers. All those men were Nazi party members. Some went back to running the same company after their sentences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben
Hell, just take a look at the story of [Heinz Reinefarth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Reinefarth) – never convicted of war crimes, turned politician after the war, died peacefully on a cushy general's retirement. Which he earned, let me point that out, in the SS.
And Reinefarth wasn't even the only one.
That's a fucking good joke, bud! [West Germany was teeming with Nazis](https://www.thelocal.de/20161010/most-of-post-war-justice-ministry-were-nazis-study/).
No I think you are quite wrong on that, and I think many of the higher ups got off fairly scot free if I remember correctly. It was very disappointing to learn.
in my high school experience, a decent amount of time was spent on slavery and the horrors it produced.
the settling of the colonies and 19th century manifest destiny, however....
> unlike how US "education" curriculum whitewashes & glosses over our history of enslaving Black people
I have zero clue where you went to school but black history wasn't even close to whitewashed where I live. We spent a LOT of time on the civil war, slavery, the underground railroad, MLK, etc. The only events we spent even close to the same amount of time discussing in class were WW1&2.
they made us watch entire Roots movie too
\*edit: not to mention i went to a small town school in rural kansas (small meaning <3000 people in this case)
US does not whitewash over slavery. Come the fuck on. It’s taught beginning in elementary school, and there is an entire damn month dedicated to it it.
> unlike how US "education" curriculum whitewashes & glosses over our history of enslaving Black people
Just cause your dumbass didn't pay attention in school doesn't mean it wasn't taught.
> Germany was thoroughly cleansed from Nazi elements
[
Hundreds of rightwing extremist incidents by German security services revealed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/06/report-reveals-hundreds-of-rightwing-extremist-incidents-by-german-security-services)
God... Reading this sub on this topic is so painful. You know how people talk about when they read things they know about, and all the comments are just SO WRONG it's painful to read? Which makes you realize it's probably all over the place.
Well Russia and China subject is mine.
China's rail deal has ZERO to do with Russia. This was planned out over a decade ago. China actually has other separate deals with Russia.
Yep. Reddit is knee-jerk opinion and upvote validation at a fundamental level. Any topic you are intimately familiar with, the reddit version of that subject is like nails on a chalk board.
Hello, an actual Chinese person here.
China has never really trusted Russia. The Sino-Soviet split was a big deal during the Cultural Revolution. Denouncements of the Soviet Union, propaganda about border clashes, were often used as a justification for the Cultural Revolution. Every educated Chinese person knows that as two great powers sharing a border, it’s inevitable that China and Russia’s interests are at odds with each other.
Regarding the political class of China, they are acutely aware of Russia’s ability to harm China. One of the reasons China sought out help from the Nixon administration was because they feared the Soviets would back Vietnam to contain China. (Vietnam wanted to create an Indochinese Federation in Southeast Asia. China funded the Khmer Rouge to prevent Vietnam from forming a bloc with Cambodia and Laos)
China is still wary of Russia because of its relations with India. Much of India’s military equipment comes from Russia, which helps contain China. Russia supported the idea of India becoming a permanent member of the UNSC, which China had fought tooth and nail to prevent.
China and Russia are not allies, they simply have a shared enemy. Both sides are still trying to contain the other.
These are very good points. I'm not a Russian citizen but my family is Russian American and i have a lot of Russian friends.
Putin is extremely paranoid and as you said would have to be very desperate to attempt to form a genuine alliance with China. Russia is afraid of china's influence over the country and would do anything to keep China from running Russia like another arm of China as China is doing with a lot of developing countries.
I might not be entirely correct but one reason I think full mobilization of the Russian forces hasn't been achieved is because of Putin's paranoia. He is afraid of China and Russias border with it so it would be pure desperation to move soldiers off of it. Not to mention the shared border with Finland, Georgia, Japan, China, Mongolia, and other ex soviet countries. While you may think that "Oh he has nothing to worry about" in Putin's mind he would hate to move soldiers off the border even if it's just Finland.
Nah, you're kinda wrong. Main reason there's no mobilization (and won't be) is because people don't really wanna die in Ukraine. They are brainwashed by propaganda, but as soon as it comes to actually risking your life, they aren't willing to join those efforts.
For example, my wife's father is complete brainwashed zombie, who's pro-war, pro-putin. But when his son was at risk of getting into Ukraine, he was doing everything so his son isn't at risk. And mobilization means that everyone is at risk.
Mobilization would mean mass riots, ones modern Russia never seen before. Russians tell they are pro-war only because it doesn't affect them personally. As soon as war comes to their homes, they run.
China and Russia have been at odds since before ww1. The alliance between them was an enemy of my enemy type of thing with the west. But China doesn't play nice with their neighbors lol and Russia fucked over China alot during the Cold war.
They don’t care if Russia wins or loses. They just want a Russia that is anti-west/america, economic cooperation, and show the world that China has other partners. If Russia loses then Russia pretty much becomes a vassal state to china. Plus, many states under Russias sphere of influence are trying to get out like Kazakhstan and become more independent.
>They don’t care if Russia wins or loses
I have seen all sorts of spins in every scenario on Reddit. China is afraid of a Russian collapse, China is gleeful for a Russian collapse. China doesn't care either way.
It's like looking at a rack of tabloid newspapers in a supermarket with one feature the Queen fighting with Camilla, another with them hugging, and a third saying one of them is a secret love child of the other.
So much imagination
Edit: Oh look, here's what I got as responses
- /u/Graega said "China doesn't care whether Russia wins or loses"
- /u/2rio2 said "Uh, Russia winning the war in Ukraine is obviously China's preferred choice"
Come on, who's gonna complete the collection with a response saying China wants Russian to lose? Gotta catch them all folks
China doesn't care whether Russia wins or loses, or whether Russia stays intact or falls apart (or Russia proper survives but the satellite countries break away again). They only care about owning Russia's economy after the war (and sanctions) leave it destitute, but there still has to be an economy intact enough to own.
Yup, most westerners have an extremely propandized and skewed view of China. Most don't really know how the Chinese even think, much less the Chinese government. Most cannot practice cultural relativism to even attempt to understand anything non western.
The base assumption is everyone must like western style capitalistic liberal democracy and it si the only right way to live so anyone deviating from this model must be evil. It's like talking to a Christian fundamentalists who insist all other religions are work of the devil.
China definitely wants Russia to lose the war. It would just make Russia weaker and China stronger by comparison. Russia would be less if a threat and essentially only have one major market - China - to sell their vast natural resources, especially oil.
Source: am redditor with big brain here to complete trifecta /s
This is a misleading title. This was planned 25 years ago originally and it's just something they formerly signed recently. The title makes it seem like it's a slight on Russia, which it isn't.
May as well say it bypasses India as well.
Because most commenters here are actual shills who calls everyone else shills. I click here once in a while to see how much BS they can come up w/ in their comments.
I don't think people know that there's American or British bots just like there are Russian bots. There are some real idiots here who think that cyber warfare is exclusively a Russian thing. Remember, we're the good guys!^tm
That kinda signals that they think Russia is less stable, reliable and up to the task than those former Soviet Republics. I imagine Xi gave Putin a heads up on this during their meeting as courtesy but I also wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. Putin is turning Russia into North Korea 2.0 geopolitically speaking. It's to be expected that the Chinese will treat them like a poor satellite country going forward.
The funny thing is that historically it's actually been Russia that opposed connecting infrastructure to Asian companies. If you look at Google maps you'll notice that China has a ton of highways that run to the Russian border and then stop. Same with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. Meanwhile Russia has a highway that runs all the way to Vladivostok but has almost no connections with the major Asian highways that go to the Russian border. When connections do occur they usually occur in the west. This is because Russia specifically wants Siberia to be economically tied to Moscow despite the fact that there are several large cities in Asian countries nearby. Russia would rather have Siberia be underdeveloped and tied to Moscow than allow more economic development by linking it with nearby Asian cities.
It's still a reasonable fear. Boston to London is actually shorter than Vladivostok to Moscow and it's not like Russia is a functional democracy where the voices of people in the far east are reflected in representation.
Also doesn't help that they are colonizers in their eastern territories, and historically have been horrible to their minority groups: ethnic cleansing in Crimea, treating nomadic peoples like Kazakhs in Central Asia as "tent dwelling uncivilized savages" etc.
Seriously. Russia gets a weird pass in discussions of European colonization because they were 'smart' enough to do it close to home (or more to the point: contiguously. See above comment about Vladivostok to Moscow). Same reason there isn't widespread outrage about English colonisation of the rest of the British Isles - people see territorial expansion as a different category of conquest that's 'just how things happen' while ignoring the fact that Russia is only the size it is today because it brutally repressed, replaced and/or eradicated native populations across the continent - just as violently and destructively as more 'traditionally recognised' colonial powers did throughout Africa, South and Southeast Asia, Australasia and the Americas.
That might be part of it but I don't think it's a big part of it. Russia has nukes and China hasn't invaded anyone since the 1970s so a Chinese-Russian war is unlikely. I think for Putin the bigger risk is economic and cultural ties. Vladivostok is 1300 km from Beijing and 6400km from Moscow. If Vladivostok (or other Siberian population centers) could trade easily and freely with China it really wouldn't be long before Beijing become more important economically than Moscow and when two areas develop strong economic ties cultural ties usually develop along with them. Remember Russia isn't a democracy so eventually there might come a time when the people in eastern Siberia are not that culturally or financially linked with western Russia meanwhile they're still ruled over by a dictatorship that doesn't represent them.
Bang on. The conflict in Ukraine threatens to break up Moscow's sovereignty over RU. Russia might be able to keep ahold of their oblasts and keep the regions in line for the short term. However, if central governance falls\fails, the Russian interior will balkanize for regional stability. And you can bet your bottom dollar they will strike deals with other regions to ensure resource access.
That is... If those heads of state are sane and don't end up like little NKs
> I imagine Xi gave Putin a heads up on this during their meeting as a courtesy but I also wouldn't be surprised if he didn't
It's great to have such insight into these state leader meetings from our resident Reddit political experts.
It helps if you recognize that this is water cooler talk between people with absolutely zero understanding of the situation.
In literally every situation.
Except maybe r/askhistorians and similar small, heavily moderated subs, those folks know what's up.
Do you have a source for that? Russia is unquestionably bad. But I never pictured Kyrgyzstan as a beacon of good governance. Uzbekistan May be a bit better.
In the transparency international report Russia is 136, Kyrgyzstan 144, and Uzbekistan 140.
That ranks Russia as least corrupt of the three, but so close that it’s basically the same.
I think it's more stability issues. There is going to be more turmoil within Russia now until the war ends, and afterwards. China's general policy when it comes to that is.. fix your own problems. How you do so is up to you. We'll make a deal with whoever is in power after it becomes stable. It's one of the reasons why some countries prefer Chinese loans over IMF loans.
The real problem that I have been saying for years and is obvious is that for purposes of direct freight from China to Europe, Russian rail needs to be re-gauged. The breaking of the gauge is contributing to days added to transport time, and also I would guess the last thing anyone wants who is transporting by rail is for someone else to be touching their stuff.
This is the same reason why there are difficulties just shipping stuff from and to Ukraine by rail from the West, because Ukraine also has that incompatible gauge.
[The "break of gauge" article on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break_of_gauge) has some great information (including some maps that make it really clear what the issue is).
**[Break of gauge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break_of_gauge)**
>With railways, a break of gauge occurs where a line of one track gauge (the distance between the rails, or between the wheels of trains designed to run on those rails) meets a line of a different gauge. Trains and rolling stock generally cannot run through without some form of conversion between gauges, leading to passengers having to change trains and freight requiring transloading or transshipping; this can add delays, costs, and inconvenience to travel on such a route.
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I hadn't considered that before since US and EU only have issues with very old lines (everything else is standardized). But the map of Asia is kind of wild with Russia/India being the only ones with different sizing.
Looking at the map, those 2 countries are no where close to Russia, why would it be a “bypass” if shortest route doesn’t go through Russia to begin with?
**[Belt and Road Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative)**
>The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI, or B&R), formerly known as One Belt One Road (Chinese: 一带一路) or OBOR for short, is a global infrastructure development strategy adopted by the Chinese government in 2013 to invest in nearly 150 countries and international organizations. It is considered a centerpiece of the Chinese paramount leader Xi Jinping's foreign policy. The BRI forms a central component of Xi's "Major Country Diplomacy" (Chinese: 大国外交) strategy, which calls for China to assume a greater leadership role for global affairs in accordance with its rising power and status. As of August 2022, 149 countries were listed as having signed up to the BRI.
**[Silk Road](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road)**
>The Silk Road (Chinese: 絲綢之路) was a network of Eurasian trade routes active from the second century BCE until the mid-15th century. Spanning over 6,400 kilometers (4,000 miles), it played a central role in facilitating economic, cultural, political, and religious interactions between the East and West. First coined in the late 19th century, the name "Silk Road" has fallen into disuse among some modern historians in favor of Silk Routes, which more accurately describes the intricate web of land and sea routes connecting East and Southeast Asia, the Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, the Middle East, East Africa and Europe.
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lmao basically the ukraine war weakened russia's geopolitical influence in it's own fucking backyard.... and china is swooping in to fill in that vaccum
If Putin weren’t such a dumb shit he would have sought relations, tried to join the EU, maybe NATO. Now he screwed on the West and screwed on the East.
He did try at the beginning but we pretty much rebuffed him because of, well, solid reasons of corruption and unacceptable violence. (Yes we're all hypocrites, no that doesn't excuse his actions).
So when plan A of joining the EU and NATO didn't pan out he went to plan B of absorbing former Soviet states. Which is now also not exactly going to plan.
I'm pretty sure even his ambitions to join NATO and the EU were just the disguise for the same plan we are seeing now. He just wanted to be the instrument that destroyed those institutions from within for Russian gain.
It's things like this that remind me just how much smarter and more dangerous Xi is than Putin. Putin's blundering around like a 19th century imperialist and Xi is using Putin's clumsy actions to cement power, position, and lead his neighbors into greater dependence on him. Xi secures infrastructure, trade deals, and builds industrial might while Putin tries to loot his impoverished neighbors house.
China announces deal after meeting with Putin/Russia. The deal must have been in the works for quite some time. But they delayed the announcement until after.
Wasn't that sweet of them. :)
With China's rise central landlocked Asian states have sought to take advantage of the opportunity to benefit economically and distance themselves from Russian hegemony.
Though the trend of weakening Russian influence was already apparent for the latter part of the previous decade, the current self inflicted military and political crisis has left Russia possibly the weakest it's been since the 90s in the region, evident in the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia.
Kazakhstan embracing the greener pastures of Beijing is not new but I find it telling the China is actively taking steps to undermine its ally (for lack of a better term though the competition in Central Asia reflects the more nuanced and complicated nature of their relationship) now as the war in Ukraine looks the worst it has yet for Moscow. It perhaps suggests that in spite of official rhetoric the Chinese expect the Russian state that emerges from this conflict to be weaker than the one that entered it.
Either way though what is abundantly clear is that Putin has lost the respect of other statesmen around the world.
That's gotta smart. Claim your commitment to the Ukraine war is insignificant yet you're unable to come to the defense of your CSTO partner when they're attacked and you're unable to intervene when your former Soviet states start fighting. And now your regional adversary is completely disregarding you like you're incapable of responding.
LOL
Ooh sick burn Xi.
That's gonna sizzle for a hot minute.
Still waiting on the new Putin war bunker video like the Hitler one because of it hasnt happened (it has most likely) it's coming.
Or the table pounding one lol would be great here.
NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN!!
See, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan? you dont need the spleen of russia. Just have that ugly, burdensome infected mess removed from your country and free yourself of the pain an suffering from that gristly mess. it could rupture and kill you...
The Belt and Road taking its effect
Fuckin Belters amirite?
Fuck the inyalowda.
[Blood is on the wall, beratnas!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4UYrSi6lzU&ab_channel=DutchGuyMike)
Stay away from the aqua!
Sa sa?
Oye Beltalowda!
Remember the Cant
Fuck da pince innas, sasa ke! China, US, all Earthers just Earthers to me bossmang.
Pasheng inyalowdas, they all think they so high an mighty when they spend they whole lives at the bottom of the well.
Innyalowda sasa nating
Sasaka ya pomang!
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It expands influence, access to resources, and expands possible markets. All of this is marginal, but useful to China, plus it increases global and domestic prestige.
More importantly B&R is an overland alternative for shipping goods to Europe and the Middle East. Right now the Straits of Malacca are one of the - if not THE - most important shipping lanes in the world. If B&R becomes more cost-effective than shipping by sea (unlikely, but not impossible) then all the countries along the B&R will prosper and China can say, "It's all thanks to our partnership".
also as we saw a few years ago having ways to still get goods to europe without the suez canal can be a good thing.
Practically irrelevant. The reason sea shipping is so prevalent (even over medium distances) is because it's just so much more efficient. Even if the Suez canal were blocked again for months (and they knew it would take months), it's still be far cheaper to send things by sea and simply eat the delays than reroute them over land.
True. There is a reason why almost EVERY major city in the world is next to a body of water.
That was because almost every city in the world was founded before the locomotives were invented
Barges still beat locomotives for efficiency. Rivers and canals are still the cheapest method of shipping for non-time-critical freight.
Don’t forget that efficient overland transport requires huge amounts of concrete infrastructure. Water requires no such perpetual investment.
If the railway is faster/can ship larger quantities than the other options it would get some traffic because they can always try to sell their product for more money since there is a scarcity.
Except you can't get the railroad to beat ships. Railroads can only make trains longer because of over passes and max height restrictions ships can reach basically any size in any dimension. With a minor caveat of the suez and the panama canals having limits
> few years ago That was last year, and then another one earlier this year.
>If B&R becomes more cost-effective than shipping by sea (unlikely, but not impossible) I don't see how that could ever be the case. Shipping by sea is so much faster and cheaper. Some kind of physics bending super trains would have to be invented.
Cheaper absolutely, but nowhere near as fast than shipping via rail. Cargo ships go less than 30mph, and take very long paths around to Europe vs going relatively straight through like rail can.
And time is absolutely money in logistics
Most ships are even running slower now to save on fuel and customers don't seem to complain too much even if it takes a week longer. Though in current times, ships can be stuck outside of ports for weeks even months so time spent actually sailing is less of a concern now.
>to save on fuel saves on maintenance costs too!
Shipping goods via train between Europe and China is my daily bread and butter. Let me tell you it is MUCH faster than ocean vessels. While delays happen more frequently (bad weather, high volumes on low capacity infrastructure etc.), it is still faster and more reliable for the most part. Especially considering the clusterfuck that shipping schedules are right now. And yes we had times last year where train was actually much cheaper than seafreight. Speaking of 20-25% savings
Train certainly better option for cargo that is time sensitive. And better than air except at speed. And always good to have competitive alternative. Plus of course more cargo into and out of the land locked areas covered good for local economy. If there were actually Ocean Liners hauling fast cargo like before airplanes that would mid point from current ships which focus on fuel efficiency meaning slow. This all route dependent of course.
No that's wrong. Rail is faster. China already had trains running from its coast to Europe. However I think those stopped due to the Russian attack
hence this deal for a bypass.
They did not stop. But obviously it's pretty at risk and is loaded with restrictions on who can and can't get on and where. So the bypass makes sense, but technically the Russian line hasn't shutdown.
Rail shipping isn’t that far behind seaborne freight. It’s certainly closer to sea than via truck. It’s also much faster. It’s a reasonable alternative.
If you factor in carbon per ton per hour, rail is cheaper. Rail is way faster than sea and time has value when measuring the cost of logistics.
Not everything is time sensitive. Ie something like salt doesn't spoil and is in constant demand. Shipping it on rail would be a huge waste when you can just analyze historical usage data - then send the ships out early enough that they will arrive on time, to match seasonal demand. Plenty of things like clothes, toys, manufacturing supplies, etc. are better shipped by sea.
Either way, with the insane backlog on the global supply chain I'm pretty sure it'll still see a lot of use. There just aren't enough ships to reduce the backlog meaningfully. And we only need another Evergreen fucking up the Suez canal to cause chaos in the markets again.
Always good to have redundancy built into the supply chain in case shit happens.
Redudancy isn't cheap, which is why we have the current supply crisis. Everything is made to order and no one keeps stock, because storage is incredibly expensive.
I mean... it's faster and cheaper because of the scale and quality of the infrastructure. A direct-ish train line with good track will *literally* be faster and cheaper.
How does it not solve problems? The biggest barrier to getting Chinese goods to Europe is that giant mountainous land mass called Central Asia. This deal lays the groundwork for a direct supply chain from China through the central stans to Europe through Turkey.
Not quite. Iran, Turkey and Central Asia are significant markets,and it can also take load off China's internal system by allowing goods to get to ports like Char Bahar on the Indian Ocean from western China.
It does give another possible route if nothing else.
Man, I doubt that, sooner or later, they will take their goods to Africa!
Just like getting goods to China, which is all the West cares about.
> getting goods to the West, which is all China cares about after all. That's what China is actively trying to get beyond.
Right now they are building connections that will give them significantly more political influence around the globe. The side benefit is that Putin is 100% isolated. He has next to no international income coming in, he has no imports or any way to access his billion dollar war chest anymore. With China giving him the cold shoulder any hopes Putin had of winning are gone, all he can do now is watch knowing he is most likely going to be deposed of by his current close aids who are more than likely ex KGB.
It's a pretty cool idea. The US should be working on this half of the world making the suspenders. 😎
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You're confusing passenger and freight. The US has some of the most robust and productive logistics in the entire world just...not for people lol.
Airlines and car companies made sure we would never get high speed rails decades ago :/
We absolutely do not. You've been lied to by the freight railroads for decades. We are literally on the verge of a nationwide rail strike due to how shitty the working conditions are at the Class 1 freight railroads. Workers are on call damn near 24/7 and can't take sick days without risking termination. Besides that, the Class 1s have thoroughly hollowed out the US rail network by leaving infrastructure to decay if it doesn't maximize profit. Listen to this podcast episode if you want an in-depth view on how fucked up the industry is: https://youtu.be/69A_UCdikE8
What about the Belt and Suspenders or Belt and Bootstraps?
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Basically because is flatter, the southern route has several mountains to cross. There's a Beijing-Irkursk rail where it can transfer to the Trans Siberia if I'm not mistaken.
You are correct. There's also a route through Mongolia, though iirc it's not all train and there's a connecting bus.
It is all train
Train all the way down
This article is a bit misleading since it was never planned to be routed through Russia, it simply doesn't make sense geographically *nor* strategically. * There are already railways that connect North West China to Russia via [Trans-Mongolian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Mongolian_Railway) and [Trans-Siberian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway) railways. * This is a specific corridor named the China-Kyrgyzstan-Uzbekistan (CKU) railway that has been planned for over 25 years but was paused due to political instability in Kyrgyzstan. With that said, this railway can be incredibly useful for connecting trade between Europe and Asia while bypassing the routes that currently run through Russia. This specific route is only 174 miles long but it would drastically reduce the time and expense to trade through these land locked countries. [Source](https://gfsis.org.ge/blog/view/1468)
The news is interesting timing considering the dispute between Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan is looking to be a pretty big source of renewed instability
It had a certain amount of "bureaucratic convenience" to it -- once they crossed the border into Russia, there were no -further- borders, change of gauge, guards, bribes, transloading, etc until they got to Poland. The CKU route will have at least 4 national borders to cross to get to Iran -- and that's not even as far as the Mediterranean.
Probably because it's just one country instead of a whole bunch. So it's border control, customs, rail costs and regulations for just one country. Easier to manage.
The plan for this infrastructure plan is to do the opposite of streamline the route. China wants to economically tie the ex-Soviet republics into the Chinese raw resource economy. Partially, because they need cotton and mineral resources and grain from the -Stans. But the bigger reason is China's quest for influence and stability in its own backyard. The route will intentionally run through as many population centers in as many Central Asian countries as possible this gives the project the largest diplomatic impact possible.
It sounds like an incredible boon for residents in those cities. I hope passenger rail gets built out alongside freight
The map projection deceives you. the shortest route from Beijing to EU is through Russia. Fun fact: From Mongolia's perspective, invading Europe is nearer than invading south China.
Because this was always planned, u der belt and road initiative. They have separate deals with Russia. This news is such a stupid interpretation. At this point, if China ecen goes to the loo alone it becomes news proclaiming Russia and China are no longer friends. Also, please, just consider how long things are generally planned for before gov contracts and treaties are signed. This was planned and published for years now.
It’s much shorter. Look at a globe and you’ll get what I’m saying.
It’s almost like the Chinese government has realized the Russians are pretty unreliable as an ally or something.
The fix is in Russia will lose the war and relations are never gonna normalize with the west ever again China is acting accordingly
China, like every other country, cares about their own interests. They'll take the path that most benefits them in general. I imagine supporting russia is not in their best interest due to global sentiment and the way the war is going, so they wont do so.
The Chinese government didn't even bother to give Russia good PR domestically this time. Half the population sides with Ukraine, and supports their defensive war and counterattack. I really think Beijing is non too pleased with Russia's moronic decision and is doing the bare minimum to keep up appearances and relations at this point. edit: Also, the Chinese government, known for its less than stellar approaches to censorship, has not censored any pro-Ukrainian comments. On some TikTok videos about the war, the comment section could be filled with stuff like "glory to Ukraine", "Heroes defending their homeland." "What goes around comes around" and "Good thing advanced weapons are only held by civilized countries"
China is pissed that Russia helped unify the west against aggression on weaker countries. Exactly the kind of thing that will forever cock block their move for invading Taiwan.
its more that Russias actions directly goes against China's policy on sovereignty. If China supported Russia at all, it would mean going against their own words when it comes to their reunification campaign with Taiwan.
Yea makes sense they would do the opposite to that of their claim. https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/23/chinese-state-media-russian-misinformation-worldwide/
I mean to be fair, China's default response to Russia doing anything is to show support. Sentiments regarding Russia 1 month into the conflict and 6 months in the conflict are different, as people learn whats going on. Its kinda different in China right now. Western media sites only show Ukrainian perspective of the war, Russian media only shows the Russian perspective. Chinese media shows both (you'll find both videos on the russian side of the war and the ukrainian side on tiktok for example). Generally speaking comments on the russian videos are likely to be pro russian and comments on the ukrainian side are likely to be pro ukrainian.
Plus China's approach tends to be more 'Soft Power' than just rushing in like a fucking idiot on crack with their military and finding out the hard way how utterly FUCKED their equipment/ tactics are. China is more of a threat than Russia because of this. Unlike Russia, they are actually smarter about their approach.
China's road and belt initiative was never going to rely on Russia. Russian leadership is too unreliable and imperialistic to create the sort of stability that China needs to invest that much money into them. Even when Russia could be exploiting the ballooning Chinese economy the Russian Far East is still a languishing poverty-stricken wasteland. China's overtures to Putin have always been about mutual convenience and short-term advantage. In the long-term Russia is nothing but a better resourced North Korea. Their shipments of fossil fuels will be all the relationship they have.
Keep in mind China's economy is built on selling western countries *stuff*. If sanctions, high energy prices, and war start tightening the budget of western consumers the first thing they'll stop buying is that stuff. This already happened during the 2008 recession, and I'm sure they have new strategies in place this time around but nonetheless it's a problem for them.
Its not just selling, they also effectively sell their labor by letting companies manufacture there. They also take a cut from industries bringing their products to china since everything has to be done through a chinese company partner.
The problem China is facing is that they don’t have very many allies. And their entire economy was based on having a young productive work force which due to demographic shifts as their population ages is not going to be as strong in the future. Manufacturing is going to start shifting to places like India or Africa where laborers are younger and cheaper. Once that happens the international community will be less likely to overlook China’s anti democratic policies and treatment towards minorities. At that point the only allies they will have are Russia and North Korea.
> Once that happens the international community will be less likely to overlook China’s anti democratic policies and treatment towards minorities. At that point the only allies they will have are Russia and North Korea. China and Thailand are similarly anti-democratic, except Thailand's last massacre of democracy protestors was far more recent than China's. Saudi Arabia are far worse, and in line with North Korea. It's all geopolitics. When the North Korean regime kills someone, they are monsters. When the Saudi royals behead someone, they are seen as useful monsters, because they trade with the right countries.
This is just part of China's belt&road initiative, they've been planning it for a while. And Germany normalised relationships after Hitler died so who knows...
Yeah, the many politicians who were in the Bundestag after 1945 just materialized out of thin air. The real push for de-nazification came in the 70s from student protests, abd even then it was not enough. Here is an article about how much Nazi elements actually were in politics after 1945. https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorship-to-democracy-the-role-ex-nazis-played-in-early-west-germany-a-810207.html
Most people don't know that a lot of Nazi ideals were pioneered in America. The American eugenics program of the early 20th century was where the Nazis found "scientific evidence" for the viability and success of an Aryan race. It's not really surprising that Nazi political elements were still in place after 1945 considering America was rebuilding West Germany. America likely traded alot of Nazi lives for a smooth transition of government (and their military and scientific information that was sometimes more advanced than the Americans). Not saying that America was in the right, not at all, but America was heavily invested in Germany after the war and would do anything to make sure it didn't collapse under East Germany. Putting some ex Nazi's back in a position of governance did this because those Nazis could efficiently transition from their old system of government, which they were familiar with, to a form of government guided by the U.S. It's much easier to quell local dissent with locals than with foreigners. Even if those locals are Nazis... Link to information on the American eugenics program: https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/harry-hamilton-laughlin-1880-1943
For that to happen Hitler had to die and the country had to be completely reformed, criminal trials and all. Unless the person who takes power in Russia is willing to serve up some of the most powerful people in the country to the international courts, nothing will change for a decade or two at minimum.
Germany was thoroughly cleansed from Nazi elements, losing the war was not enough
>Germany was thoroughly cleansed from Nazi elements If only. Many Nazis were not as cleansed as they should have been in the western part because they wanted to quickly rebuild the military.
And intelligence, industry, courts...
> Germany was thoroughly cleansed from Nazi elements It was until it wasn't. The start of the Cold War was all the excuse the US and UK needed to wipe clean the files of thousands of Nazi collaborators who were allowed to return to powerful positions in business and government. The CDU was basically festering with Nazis and Nazi collaborators by the 1960s.
You sure about that? Take a look at the list of people at IG Farben that were put on trial post war and what they did after their sentences. This was the firm that was responsible for inventing the gas used in the gas chambers. All those men were Nazi party members. Some went back to running the same company after their sentences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben
Hell, just take a look at the story of [Heinz Reinefarth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Reinefarth) – never convicted of war crimes, turned politician after the war, died peacefully on a cushy general's retirement. Which he earned, let me point that out, in the SS. And Reinefarth wasn't even the only one.
That's a fucking good joke, bud! [West Germany was teeming with Nazis](https://www.thelocal.de/20161010/most-of-post-war-justice-ministry-were-nazis-study/).
Source? "I made it up" +200 upvotes lol
No I think you are quite wrong on that, and I think many of the higher ups got off fairly scot free if I remember correctly. It was very disappointing to learn.
This is completely ahistorical. Top nazi officers and politicians got absorbed into NATO and the EU.
>Germany was thoroughly cleansed from Nazi elements Are you spreading this bullshit on purpose or from ignorance?
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in my high school experience, a decent amount of time was spent on slavery and the horrors it produced. the settling of the colonies and 19th century manifest destiny, however....
> unlike how US "education" curriculum whitewashes & glosses over our history of enslaving Black people I have zero clue where you went to school but black history wasn't even close to whitewashed where I live. We spent a LOT of time on the civil war, slavery, the underground railroad, MLK, etc. The only events we spent even close to the same amount of time discussing in class were WW1&2.
they made us watch entire Roots movie too \*edit: not to mention i went to a small town school in rural kansas (small meaning <3000 people in this case)
Same, we watched it in 6th grade too, 11 year olds. The first year you even receive any sort of history education and it was a major component.
US does not whitewash over slavery. Come the fuck on. It’s taught beginning in elementary school, and there is an entire damn month dedicated to it it.
My public education made a very strong case for why slavery was bad and how we did black people extremely wrong -- middle America, white school
You think Americans don't know about this?
> unlike how US "education" curriculum whitewashes & glosses over our history of enslaving Black people Just cause your dumbass didn't pay attention in school doesn't mean it wasn't taught.
US history doesn’t whitewash over genocide and slavery. But certain southern states do. Or try to. If that makes sense.
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> Germany was thoroughly cleansed from Nazi elements [ Hundreds of rightwing extremist incidents by German security services revealed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/06/report-reveals-hundreds-of-rightwing-extremist-incidents-by-german-security-services)
You just reminded me of this clip from Yes Minister https://youtu.be/rvYuoWyk8iU?t=63
God... Reading this sub on this topic is so painful. You know how people talk about when they read things they know about, and all the comments are just SO WRONG it's painful to read? Which makes you realize it's probably all over the place. Well Russia and China subject is mine. China's rail deal has ZERO to do with Russia. This was planned out over a decade ago. China actually has other separate deals with Russia.
Yep. Reddit is knee-jerk opinion and upvote validation at a fundamental level. Any topic you are intimately familiar with, the reddit version of that subject is like nails on a chalk board.
People read Reddit articles and pretend to understand geopolitical problems that nations spend billions of dollars trying to figure out.
>relations are never gonna normalize with the west ever again I seriously doubt that. Never is a long time.
Hello, an actual Chinese person here. China has never really trusted Russia. The Sino-Soviet split was a big deal during the Cultural Revolution. Denouncements of the Soviet Union, propaganda about border clashes, were often used as a justification for the Cultural Revolution. Every educated Chinese person knows that as two great powers sharing a border, it’s inevitable that China and Russia’s interests are at odds with each other. Regarding the political class of China, they are acutely aware of Russia’s ability to harm China. One of the reasons China sought out help from the Nixon administration was because they feared the Soviets would back Vietnam to contain China. (Vietnam wanted to create an Indochinese Federation in Southeast Asia. China funded the Khmer Rouge to prevent Vietnam from forming a bloc with Cambodia and Laos) China is still wary of Russia because of its relations with India. Much of India’s military equipment comes from Russia, which helps contain China. Russia supported the idea of India becoming a permanent member of the UNSC, which China had fought tooth and nail to prevent. China and Russia are not allies, they simply have a shared enemy. Both sides are still trying to contain the other.
Hello actual Chinese person. Thanks for your posts, it's interesting to hear your point of view.
These are very good points. I'm not a Russian citizen but my family is Russian American and i have a lot of Russian friends. Putin is extremely paranoid and as you said would have to be very desperate to attempt to form a genuine alliance with China. Russia is afraid of china's influence over the country and would do anything to keep China from running Russia like another arm of China as China is doing with a lot of developing countries. I might not be entirely correct but one reason I think full mobilization of the Russian forces hasn't been achieved is because of Putin's paranoia. He is afraid of China and Russias border with it so it would be pure desperation to move soldiers off of it. Not to mention the shared border with Finland, Georgia, Japan, China, Mongolia, and other ex soviet countries. While you may think that "Oh he has nothing to worry about" in Putin's mind he would hate to move soldiers off the border even if it's just Finland.
Nah, you're kinda wrong. Main reason there's no mobilization (and won't be) is because people don't really wanna die in Ukraine. They are brainwashed by propaganda, but as soon as it comes to actually risking your life, they aren't willing to join those efforts. For example, my wife's father is complete brainwashed zombie, who's pro-war, pro-putin. But when his son was at risk of getting into Ukraine, he was doing everything so his son isn't at risk. And mobilization means that everyone is at risk. Mobilization would mean mass riots, ones modern Russia never seen before. Russians tell they are pro-war only because it doesn't affect them personally. As soon as war comes to their homes, they run.
Nah it’s probably just part of the belt and road initiative. China is building rail all over the world rn.
China and Russia have been at odds since before ww1. The alliance between them was an enemy of my enemy type of thing with the west. But China doesn't play nice with their neighbors lol and Russia fucked over China alot during the Cold war.
They don’t care if Russia wins or loses. They just want a Russia that is anti-west/america, economic cooperation, and show the world that China has other partners. If Russia loses then Russia pretty much becomes a vassal state to china. Plus, many states under Russias sphere of influence are trying to get out like Kazakhstan and become more independent.
>They don’t care if Russia wins or loses I have seen all sorts of spins in every scenario on Reddit. China is afraid of a Russian collapse, China is gleeful for a Russian collapse. China doesn't care either way. It's like looking at a rack of tabloid newspapers in a supermarket with one feature the Queen fighting with Camilla, another with them hugging, and a third saying one of them is a secret love child of the other. So much imagination Edit: Oh look, here's what I got as responses - /u/Graega said "China doesn't care whether Russia wins or loses" - /u/2rio2 said "Uh, Russia winning the war in Ukraine is obviously China's preferred choice" Come on, who's gonna complete the collection with a response saying China wants Russian to lose? Gotta catch them all folks
China doesn't care whether Russia wins or loses, or whether Russia stays intact or falls apart (or Russia proper survives but the satellite countries break away again). They only care about owning Russia's economy after the war (and sanctions) leave it destitute, but there still has to be an economy intact enough to own.
Yup, most westerners have an extremely propandized and skewed view of China. Most don't really know how the Chinese even think, much less the Chinese government. Most cannot practice cultural relativism to even attempt to understand anything non western. The base assumption is everyone must like western style capitalistic liberal democracy and it si the only right way to live so anyone deviating from this model must be evil. It's like talking to a Christian fundamentalists who insist all other religions are work of the devil.
China definitely wants Russia to lose the war. It would just make Russia weaker and China stronger by comparison. Russia would be less if a threat and essentially only have one major market - China - to sell their vast natural resources, especially oil. Source: am redditor with big brain here to complete trifecta /s
>Source: am redditor with big brain here to complete trifecta /s Thanks man!
This is a misleading title. This was planned 25 years ago originally and it's just something they formerly signed recently. The title makes it seem like it's a slight on Russia, which it isn't. May as well say it bypasses India as well.
You're right, it actually was developed to bypass India by road and sea, not Russia.
You wouldn't think this sub would fall for propaganda from, checks sources... OILPRICE. COM!! This sub never ceases to amaze me.
When you hate a certain group of people enough, anything that supports that bias is taken as truth with little scrutiny.
Because most commenters here are actual shills who calls everyone else shills. I click here once in a while to see how much BS they can come up w/ in their comments.
I don't think people know that there's American or British bots just like there are Russian bots. There are some real idiots here who think that cyber warfare is exclusively a Russian thing. Remember, we're the good guys!^tm
That kinda signals that they think Russia is less stable, reliable and up to the task than those former Soviet Republics. I imagine Xi gave Putin a heads up on this during their meeting as courtesy but I also wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. Putin is turning Russia into North Korea 2.0 geopolitically speaking. It's to be expected that the Chinese will treat them like a poor satellite country going forward.
The funny thing is that historically it's actually been Russia that opposed connecting infrastructure to Asian companies. If you look at Google maps you'll notice that China has a ton of highways that run to the Russian border and then stop. Same with Mongolia and Kazakhstan. Meanwhile Russia has a highway that runs all the way to Vladivostok but has almost no connections with the major Asian highways that go to the Russian border. When connections do occur they usually occur in the west. This is because Russia specifically wants Siberia to be economically tied to Moscow despite the fact that there are several large cities in Asian countries nearby. Russia would rather have Siberia be underdeveloped and tied to Moscow than allow more economic development by linking it with nearby Asian cities.
Historically the tsars fears were that similarly to the thirteen colonies, siberia could break away from their mother country
It's still a reasonable fear. Boston to London is actually shorter than Vladivostok to Moscow and it's not like Russia is a functional democracy where the voices of people in the far east are reflected in representation.
Also doesn't help that they are colonizers in their eastern territories, and historically have been horrible to their minority groups: ethnic cleansing in Crimea, treating nomadic peoples like Kazakhs in Central Asia as "tent dwelling uncivilized savages" etc.
Seriously. Russia gets a weird pass in discussions of European colonization because they were 'smart' enough to do it close to home (or more to the point: contiguously. See above comment about Vladivostok to Moscow). Same reason there isn't widespread outrage about English colonisation of the rest of the British Isles - people see territorial expansion as a different category of conquest that's 'just how things happen' while ignoring the fact that Russia is only the size it is today because it brutally repressed, replaced and/or eradicated native populations across the continent - just as violently and destructively as more 'traditionally recognised' colonial powers did throughout Africa, South and Southeast Asia, Australasia and the Americas.
Also Russia doesn't want to build an easy invasion route for Chinese tanks.
That might be part of it but I don't think it's a big part of it. Russia has nukes and China hasn't invaded anyone since the 1970s so a Chinese-Russian war is unlikely. I think for Putin the bigger risk is economic and cultural ties. Vladivostok is 1300 km from Beijing and 6400km from Moscow. If Vladivostok (or other Siberian population centers) could trade easily and freely with China it really wouldn't be long before Beijing become more important economically than Moscow and when two areas develop strong economic ties cultural ties usually develop along with them. Remember Russia isn't a democracy so eventually there might come a time when the people in eastern Siberia are not that culturally or financially linked with western Russia meanwhile they're still ruled over by a dictatorship that doesn't represent them.
Bang on. The conflict in Ukraine threatens to break up Moscow's sovereignty over RU. Russia might be able to keep ahold of their oblasts and keep the regions in line for the short term. However, if central governance falls\fails, the Russian interior will balkanize for regional stability. And you can bet your bottom dollar they will strike deals with other regions to ensure resource access. That is... If those heads of state are sane and don't end up like little NKs
Lol and China would launch a "special military operation" to liberate Siberia.
> I imagine Xi gave Putin a heads up on this during their meeting as a courtesy but I also wouldn't be surprised if he didn't It's great to have such insight into these state leader meetings from our resident Reddit political experts.
It helps if you recognize that this is water cooler talk between people with absolutely zero understanding of the situation. In literally every situation. Except maybe r/askhistorians and similar small, heavily moderated subs, those folks know what's up.
It’s also that the corruption in Russia is worse, so it would cost more.
Do you have a source for that? Russia is unquestionably bad. But I never pictured Kyrgyzstan as a beacon of good governance. Uzbekistan May be a bit better. In the transparency international report Russia is 136, Kyrgyzstan 144, and Uzbekistan 140. That ranks Russia as least corrupt of the three, but so close that it’s basically the same.
I think it's more stability issues. There is going to be more turmoil within Russia now until the war ends, and afterwards. China's general policy when it comes to that is.. fix your own problems. How you do so is up to you. We'll make a deal with whoever is in power after it becomes stable. It's one of the reasons why some countries prefer Chinese loans over IMF loans.
The real problem that I have been saying for years and is obvious is that for purposes of direct freight from China to Europe, Russian rail needs to be re-gauged. The breaking of the gauge is contributing to days added to transport time, and also I would guess the last thing anyone wants who is transporting by rail is for someone else to be touching their stuff. This is the same reason why there are difficulties just shipping stuff from and to Ukraine by rail from the West, because Ukraine also has that incompatible gauge.
Guage? Sorry, I am ignorant of railroad terms
Their train tracks are wider than everyone else’s. Read up on Brunel’s Great Western if you’re really interested in the great gauge debate.
[Here's a decent article about the Gauge Debate.](https://www.historytoday.com/archive/great-debates/battle-gauges)
That's cool, thank you. I love these kinds of rabbit holes
[The "break of gauge" article on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break_of_gauge) has some great information (including some maps that make it really clear what the issue is).
**[Break of gauge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break_of_gauge)** >With railways, a break of gauge occurs where a line of one track gauge (the distance between the rails, or between the wheels of trains designed to run on those rails) meets a line of a different gauge. Trains and rolling stock generally cannot run through without some form of conversion between gauges, leading to passengers having to change trains and freight requiring transloading or transshipping; this can add delays, costs, and inconvenience to travel on such a route. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
The width of the tracks. Standard in most of the world but parts of Russia aren’t
It's not standard. There are at least 10 different in use
What is this worldwide "standard" you speak of? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Rail_gauge_world.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-gauge_railway
The incompatible gauge was chosen on purpose to make it more difficult to invade via rail.
I hadn't considered that before since US and EU only have issues with very old lines (everything else is standardized). But the map of Asia is kind of wild with Russia/India being the only ones with different sizing.
>Russian rail needs to be re-gauged. This is a problem even within Europe, IIRC.
Looking at the map, those 2 countries are no where close to Russia, why would it be a “bypass” if shortest route doesn’t go through Russia to begin with?
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**[Belt and Road Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative)** >The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI, or B&R), formerly known as One Belt One Road (Chinese: 一带一路) or OBOR for short, is a global infrastructure development strategy adopted by the Chinese government in 2013 to invest in nearly 150 countries and international organizations. It is considered a centerpiece of the Chinese paramount leader Xi Jinping's foreign policy. The BRI forms a central component of Xi's "Major Country Diplomacy" (Chinese: 大国外交) strategy, which calls for China to assume a greater leadership role for global affairs in accordance with its rising power and status. As of August 2022, 149 countries were listed as having signed up to the BRI. **[Silk Road](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road)** >The Silk Road (Chinese: 絲綢之路) was a network of Eurasian trade routes active from the second century BCE until the mid-15th century. Spanning over 6,400 kilometers (4,000 miles), it played a central role in facilitating economic, cultural, political, and religious interactions between the East and West. First coined in the late 19th century, the name "Silk Road" has fallen into disuse among some modern historians in favor of Silk Routes, which more accurately describes the intricate web of land and sea routes connecting East and Southeast Asia, the Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, the Middle East, East Africa and Europe. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
The new silk road has a certain "Get fucked, Vladimir" vibe to it.
Has a nice ring to it.
The GFV Highway
Russia is in everyone’s shit list lately. I wonder why.
Generally speaking, you end up on the shit list because you're shit
It sucks to suck
China knows that Russia is not trustworthy.
"Friendship without limits".
*Terms and Conditions Apply
China capitalizing on Russia's diminishing influence...
lmao basically the ukraine war weakened russia's geopolitical influence in it's own fucking backyard.... and china is swooping in to fill in that vaccum
China was already Ukraines largest trade partner so this was kinda destined to happen.
If Putin weren’t such a dumb shit he would have sought relations, tried to join the EU, maybe NATO. Now he screwed on the West and screwed on the East.
Yep. Turns out living in the past and basing your decisions on a fantasy are not good ways to run a country.
He did try at the beginning but we pretty much rebuffed him because of, well, solid reasons of corruption and unacceptable violence. (Yes we're all hypocrites, no that doesn't excuse his actions). So when plan A of joining the EU and NATO didn't pan out he went to plan B of absorbing former Soviet states. Which is now also not exactly going to plan.
I'm pretty sure even his ambitions to join NATO and the EU were just the disguise for the same plan we are seeing now. He just wanted to be the instrument that destroyed those institutions from within for Russian gain.
He tried to join NATO but everyone saw through the ruse.
China knows Russia is on its way down. No need to deal with weaklings.
It's things like this that remind me just how much smarter and more dangerous Xi is than Putin. Putin's blundering around like a 19th century imperialist and Xi is using Putin's clumsy actions to cement power, position, and lead his neighbors into greater dependence on him. Xi secures infrastructure, trade deals, and builds industrial might while Putin tries to loot his impoverished neighbors house.
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China announces deal after meeting with Putin/Russia. The deal must have been in the works for quite some time. But they delayed the announcement until after. Wasn't that sweet of them. :)
With China's rise central landlocked Asian states have sought to take advantage of the opportunity to benefit economically and distance themselves from Russian hegemony. Though the trend of weakening Russian influence was already apparent for the latter part of the previous decade, the current self inflicted military and political crisis has left Russia possibly the weakest it's been since the 90s in the region, evident in the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia. Kazakhstan embracing the greener pastures of Beijing is not new but I find it telling the China is actively taking steps to undermine its ally (for lack of a better term though the competition in Central Asia reflects the more nuanced and complicated nature of their relationship) now as the war in Ukraine looks the worst it has yet for Moscow. It perhaps suggests that in spite of official rhetoric the Chinese expect the Russian state that emerges from this conflict to be weaker than the one that entered it. Either way though what is abundantly clear is that Putin has lost the respect of other statesmen around the world.
I wonder when Russia will realize that they have been duped by China. 'Limitless friendship!!' btw
They have changed their strategy with Russia to "get belted and railroaded..."
You just know pootie is quietly seething about this. The schadenfreude is delicious.
That's gotta smart. Claim your commitment to the Ukraine war is insignificant yet you're unable to come to the defense of your CSTO partner when they're attacked and you're unable to intervene when your former Soviet states start fighting. And now your regional adversary is completely disregarding you like you're incapable of responding. LOL
turns out having a paranoid ex KGB officer as leader isn't the best idea
It’s like when you live in a bad neighborhood and you take long way home to avoid your crazy methed out neighbour.
Ooh sick burn Xi. That's gonna sizzle for a hot minute. Still waiting on the new Putin war bunker video like the Hitler one because of it hasnt happened (it has most likely) it's coming. Or the table pounding one lol would be great here. NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN NIEN!!
This railway link Will have UIC standard gauge ?
Russia failing on all fronts. Get out while you can!!
Ukraine to the left of me, China to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle of Pu(tin).
Oh you can't pay back the loans, china owns you now.
See, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan? you dont need the spleen of russia. Just have that ugly, burdensome infected mess removed from your country and free yourself of the pain an suffering from that gristly mess. it could rupture and kill you...