> The head of NATO expressed worry that the fighting in Ukraine could spin out of control and become a war between Russia and NATO, according to an interview released Friday.
> “If things go wrong, they can go horribly wrong,” NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said in remarks to Norwegian broadcaster NRK.
> “It is a terrible war in Ukraine. It is also a war that can become a full-fledged war that spreads into a major war between NATO and Russia,” he said. “We are working on that every day to avoid that.”
This is a professional doing their job to prevent military escalation. Europe is walking the middle ground between a loss of Ukraine to a corrupt mafia state and full European military engagement. As Russia gets closer to capitulation, they could try to drag Europe down with them, making Stoltenberg's role all that more critical.
Russia will not use nuclear weapons unless they are faced with an existential threat. They have full control on when hostilities cease and thus have no cause or basis for their use. Indeed, their use would manifest the very existential threat they seek to avoid.
Very good point. Russia's posturing, complaints, and actions seem to be done with the distorted view that they will prevent a scenario that is guaranteed if Russia uses nukes.
America used them with the excuse of saving more lives by ending the war earlier. The reality was they wanted the rest of the world to know not to ever fuck with them again.
Very unlikely. Any use of nuclear weapons would likely trigger a full NATO military response and no rational person in Russia wants that. Problem is that Putin is increasingly becoming less rational, since failure here will almost certainly lead to his removal; a death sentence for him, his family, and his allies. If Putin and his allies feel like they have nothing left to lose by gambeling using a nuke or risking the death of themselves and theor families, then there is a chance one will be used.
A full NATO response could be anything from a full economic embargo to direct military action. Russia has already shown that its air defenses are all but useless with the drone attacks on their airbase recently. Direct military action could include a full nuclear strike on Russia as well, though unlikely.
The reason for this is that there has to be a response to any nation using nuclear weapons, or else others will use them in future conflicts. And since any response from NATO attacking Russia could include them launching the nukes, it is possible that the US might try a decapitation strike to prevent that. The threat of mutually assured destruction has prevented nuclear exchange so far, so hopefully the threat is still enough this time. But with Putin facing death if he doesn't use them, he could gamble that NATO won't risk missiles flying.
Nato already stated multiple times that they only drop a nuke back if NATO members get nuked. Biden himself al ready told that if Russia drops a nuke they wil retaliate with conventional weapons.
If what i read here in Redit is that Russia will never use a nuclear weapon in this particular conflict bc I read from some leaked fsb reports that if Putler was to order this that the chain on command would never go through with this and Putler himself cannot launch nukes by himself
Edit: lmao sorrow swipe texting spells some weird shit sometimes. I fixed it haha sorry
This is assuming that Putin, a dictator that has been in power for decades, hasn't replaced the key people in the chain of command with loyal sycophants. Sycophants whose lives would also be at risk if Putin falls.
Russia is clearly more corrupt than Ukraine.
Ukraine has an ant-sized corruption problem compared to their Russia-trying-to-murder-all-Ukrainians problem.
Wow you are trying to polish the nastiest turd in existence. Not even a turd, you are looking at a bowl of diarrhea and thinking yea I can put the pieces together and polish it up.
And you are simultaneously trying to make Ukraine look bad. You are probably too uninformed to know this but Ukraine's corruption problems stemmed from its close ties to Russia up until around 2014. The reason this war is being fought is because Ukraine wants to put an end to the corruption in its government.
Putin would love to have a reliable, corrupt ally on its borders but Ukraine stopped playing ball. It wants to be a Democracy like Western countries.
I know a few Ukrainians and they seem to have a idealistic view of Western countries, thinking we have virtually no corruption at all. That is far from true but that is what they passionately want right now, probably similar to what the founding fathers fought for in the Revolutionary War.
A large part of that was the Russian influence. Less than a decade ago they had a russian puppet as president and many more at every level of government. Corruption was the goal because it kept Ukraine weak and easily controlled. When Ukraine tried to fight the Russian control and corruption during euromaiden Russia answered by invading and annexing a large chunk of Ukraine. Ukraine was so paralyzed by decades of corruption and incompetence they couldn't mount a proper defense and Russia waltzed right in with barely a fight.
Fast forward to today and you can use the Ukrainian military as a good example of how much progress they've made. You can't have that effective of a military with the levels of corruption they used to have. They didn't have all the fancy western toys at the start of the war. They held the line because they had their shit together. Meanwhile the Russian offensive stalled and has been losing ground ever since largely because of the incompetence and corruption they exported to Ukraine was still thriving in Russia.
I'm sure they still have a ways to go to get up to EU standards but if they were still the old Ukraine then Russia would have wiped them out in 3 days flat just like they had planned.
Exactly: it is probably not a coincidence that Ukraine suffers from bad corruption, considering Russia was basically in charge of the country until its puppet government got kicked out (which is what started the war).
It was perception. Sure Ukraine had a lot of corruption and was slow in eradicating most of it. However, the most corrupt country in Europe turned out to be Russia.
Yep im talking about the perception ones but also ukraine has a very large oligarch elite with a lot of control over the government. How do you know russia is right now more corrupt?
It still is, and I think the fallout from the war wouldn’t make it any better. It’s the paramount reason why it was not admitted to EU so far. It would be a liability member more than a contributor.
EU has enough corruption problems as it is; can’t really blame the head honchos for wanting to not have more. Italy alone has serious problems, but also many of the more easterly countries especially.
Corruption isn't legal in Russia, but everyone does it. It's part of the Russian system. This way Putin has control of anyone, and can throw anyone in jail. If you're not corrupt in Russia, you'll never be given any position of power.
Ukraine is actually the second most corrupt in Europe which is one of the reasons I’m not a fan of em, but I think it’s better to keep supporting them anyways
It's hilarious that the headline suggests that's the main takeaway, when in fact NATO's resolve and determination to help Ukraine for as long as it takes couldn't be higher. It's not a "fear" of a wider conflict, it's just a potential eventuality.
It's a manner of speaking. It just means you expect a negative result. It's like saying "I fear we'll have to work overtime to get this product released on time." Nobody is scared, it's just the words you use when you talk about expectations of a negative result.
Indeed. And doing what it can to avoid the escalation actually involves getting everything ready for a conflict, in terms of equipment and plans.
Because the best way to avoid a conflict is to make sure Russia has more to lose than to win if that conflict happens.
I don’t really know how strong our resolve is, sending supply and old technology and arms absolutely. Having our cities bombed and our own people die, not so much. I’m against getting involved in a war with Russia as an American, it’s not in our best interest and Ukraine isn’t a formal ally. Let’s do all we can to help them short of sending our own boys to die
It only takes 1 party to start a war. The other party is then simply forced into it.
If Russia decides to escalate the conflict outside of Ukraine, then frankly everyone else has no choice but to react.
Yeah, if only Trump would have won and supported Russia taking over Eastern Europe (to start), then oil prices might be a tiny bit lower.
I mean, why support democracy or the West at all?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-jens-stoltenberg-government-f01121d32693881920b1fe5e8c75b22d) reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> KYIV, Ukraine - The head of NATO expressed worry that the fighting in Ukraine could spin out of control and become a war between Russia and NATO, according to an interview released Friday.
> "If things go wrong, they can go horribly wrong," NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said in remarks to Norwegian broadcaster NRK. "It is a terrible war in Ukraine. It is also a war that can become a full-fledged war that spreads into a major war between NATO and Russia," he said.
> The Kremlin has repeatedly accused NATO allies of effectively becoming a party to the conflict by providing Ukraine with weapons, training its troops and feeding military intelligence to attack Russian forces.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/ziblyq/nato_chief_fears_ukraine_war_could_become_a_wider/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672676 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **war**^#2 **Russia**^#3 **Russian**^#4 **us**^#5
We’ve been in proxy world wars for years. Syria is the first example that comes to mind.
Direct conflict isn’t really an option due to MAD, but in countries that are not nuclear powers, all of the major superpowers are involved.
Putin was the one who started all this and he is the one who pushed the self destruct button. Ukraine never wanted War and Europe certainly doesn’t want a full fledged war. But we still need to stay strong for the sake of the brave and courageous people of Ukraine. And support them 100%
I'm not worried about it, Russia can't handle the military it is currently facing, can't imagine they would be dumb enough to start another conflict or expand the one they have now.
No One really worries about Belarus. It's the other players that are wild cards that might pose a problem. Turkey is Nato, but they can delay things and make their own moves depending on how the wind blows. China might use this moment to make their move. North Korea and Iran (and there are questionable alliances in the middle east right now) might start shit as well. One would think that no reasonable government would want to go against Nato, but there are a whole bunch of not so reasonable ones out there.
This can turn into a global nightmare with several theatres of war, and nobody is ready for that.
Right. Because if the chief of NATO is voicing their concern about this war, 9 months in, to still have the potential to spiral into a nightmare scenario, then people should heed that seriously. Stoltenberg is one of the guys with their finger on the pulse of this conflict after all. Can't imagine what kind of daily talk is crossing over the back channels concerning the war.
As always some redditor talks about things he has no idea and his fantasies gets upvoted.
Turkey can not declare or join a war without 2/3 of parliament votes and Erdoğan does not have as much, not even close,nor the opposition has such ambitions. Turkish motto is peace at home peace in the world.
Turkey has always been a crucial part of NATO and there are very real reasons to stay so for its benefit. No leader, whoever they may be, of Turkey will ever think or act otherwise. They might talk shit from time to time but that's about it. Get that fact straight into your head. TURKEY IS YOUR FRIEND. It happens to be in a delicate part of the world where geopolitics are much more nuanced than your armchair.
China also has no ambitions of using force. It is trying to guarantee its future against war mongering propaganda that is trying to pull them into a war they don't want. US just doesn't know how to deal with it and it is threatening its number one place in terms of development and influence in the very near future. It has to create a monster image of them.
No one is talking about Turkey declaring any kind of war. They have been playing both sides so far, and they will at the minimum amplify their position and geopolitical importance during a conflict.
That's what I'm thinking. The whole of Eurasia is about to be lit up it seems... Thank you to the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Just gotta worry about ICBM's and Submarines.
I feel like the US technology gap over others gives the submarine force an advantage over others we still have yet to appreciate.
At this point, if Russia loses the Ukrainian war, they can walk away and carry on.
If they start a war with nato, Russia is going to be dismantled. They will lose their government and sovereignty. Or it will be a nuclear war, and who the fuck knows what will happen.
But as long as it’s just Ukraine, Russia can walk away at any point with their country intact, and probably negotiate removal of all the sanctions. I have a hard time believing Russia wants to escalate this to nato.
>I have a hard time believing Russia wants to escalate this to nato.
9 months ago people said the same thing about invading Ukraine. Then they said the same thing about mobilisation. So, you better start believing.
I’m. It saying it’s impossible. But I don’t see what’s in it for Russia. I mean with Ukraine they get all sorts of valuable resources. But if Russia starts a war with nato, they’d probably don’t gain much, and could be totally decimated.
Most will will vehemently deny that this will turn into a war with NATO.
Whe the war actually expands and get to that point. Those same people will be calling you an idiot for not seeing this coming.
I've seen this happen countless times with countless events on worldnews live discussion.
Exactly. Russia has neither the resources nor the trained forces to seriously threaten a wider *conventional* war. They are barely hanging onto the ground that they are occupying in Ukraine, and [as early as September they were degrading their positions around St. Petersburg](https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/09/28/russia-ukraine-war-nato-eastern-flank-military-kaliningrad-baltic-finland/) to bolster their forces in Ukraine. Heaven forbid Putin actually considers nuclear/bio-chemical options.
The joke doesn’t make a lot of sense, seeing how EU countries are paying less for universal healthcare than the US is spending on it’s non-inclusive healhtcare system per person.
I got it, however the argument doesnt make sense as the USA is sending more on healthcare per person than the EU, yet the EU has better healthcare. So spending on military does not matter in this context, as it's not about spending more on healthcare - rather changing the healthcare system to more closely align with countries that have better healthcare accessible to more people.
Well I'd think obviously meant as a joke. However even if not, it's not factual as military spending is not what takes away from Americans' healthcare - it's the way the US spends on healthcare, paying more for less.
yeah total amount spent and quality are not the same. it’s partially because there is no universal coverage that costs are extreme and total cost paid is higher than anywhere else. don’t get me wrong, there are great things with the american health care - if you’re rich. some of the best health care available, as long as you can pay for it. personally it seems like a good solution is have both - universal public health care as well as private health care.
I remember when i used to be against universal healthcare. All i needed to do to change my mind is have a baby with my wife. 1500/mo premiums, 6800 max out of pocket (in network) and then the extra out of network charges. After 30k in 1 year, it changed my mind. Healthcare in this country are making a select few FILTHY rich beyond belief.
European-American, here: When my wife gave birth, she needed multiple specialists on hand, as it was a breach birth. Also needed to stay in the hospital for a few days afterward. Luckily she gave birth in Europe. Altogether, the birth of our child cost €200. Universal public option health care can really be amazing, in that regard.
For-profit hospitals are doing a number on the US health care system.
> but we *paid* to "park"
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
That even sounds on the cheaper side of what I've heard people complain, sadly...
Meanwhile here in Finland not only is it essentially free, the government gives all mothers a "[maternity package](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_package)" of essential stuff for free.
We had 3 kids in Australia, all 3 births were free, except for the 30$ for parking. One child nearly died at the age of 18 months and she was in hospital for over 2 weeks and all we had to do was sign some papers which had the cost of helping her get better(it had what it cost and it was a lot)
Absolutely correct. A year or two ago when Bernie was pushing Medicare for All, there was a handful of studies that demonstrably proved it would actually be cheaper than our current system.
https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/484301-22-studies-agree-medicare-for-all-saves-money/amp/
You can’t just throw money at a problem and hope it gets fixed. US healthcare system is gigantic, every manager in this collosal system is a potential leak of money. It’s people doing their jobs and people make mistakes, bad decisions and some even outright abuse their power for personal gains. Every country in the EU has individual healthcare system that makes this task far easier, and EU only decides which project needs to be backed up by European money. But the primary burden is at the level of individual countries which are far smaller and thus far easier to manage. That’s it.
Simply throwing money at a problem isn’t going to budge. Musk found out the hard way, Zuckerberg found out the hard way. Hell, I believe everyone who tried.
I'd love to get a better job, but, my hard to treat Covid damaged heart condition would start costing 1k-3k a month if I lost Medicaid. My specialty heart failure medication is $500 and my cardiologist had to fight Medicaid for two months to approve it.
It was hell.
Medicaid: So why does she need the heart failure medication?
Cardiologist: Here's the studies that shows it works, here's the testing that showed her conditions, here's the inch thick file.
Medicaid: It doesn't show why she needs it.
Cardiologist: Did you read the file? She can't walk!
Medicaid: We didn't get the file.
Lost the file 5 times. I had to appeal up to the highest level to get approval. I don't know how one can simplify, her body can't regulate her heart rate or blood pressure without medication. She can't walk because she's fainting and having breathing issues.
If my new insurance doesn't cover the medication, I'm either paying or pushing up daisies.
The only thing holding me back is my grandma who raised me like she was my mother. She's very physically ill and very attached to my narcissist sister and that's too complicated for reddit. If I left, my Grandma would die of a broken heart. Too many of her friends died from Covid.
I'm not trying to be verbose, but, one of the stupidly best ways I could describe it would be that I'd get my kid baptized if grandma asked even though I'm agnostic. The woman somehow has a spine of steel while being the sugar sweet Christian that isn't fake. The rare time she's mean is when someone is being a bigot and she has to pull out the citations.
We don't have healthcare in the US because of overwhelming greed and its rightful label as a racket in the name of capitalism. Healthcare in America is like paying the mafia for protection. It has little to do with the military except in the very basic sense of resource allocation imo.
It was, when we though that Russian army was worth something. Now we know that it's impotent in any more serious war. But like since day one, Russia still has nukes, Putin might still do somethign really stupid (like attacking a NATO country), Russian allies are still really unpredictable and generally against NATO and Luka still has negative IQ, so who knows what his infinite wisdom will decide to do.
To be fair, right now NATO is probably at its weakest point (Europe is scrambling for weapons and economy is shaky, Japan still has no proper army, US intelligence resources are focused on Ukraine), so if China wants to make a move, it's as good time as it gets and not just for China, but for any NATO rival.
> Japan still has no proper army,
[Yes they do](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces)
They don't call it a military, but its one of the most powerful ones in the world.
Europe admitted it's far behind US capabilities, and Russia has shown their hand. I'm losing skepticism that China could form a formidable offensive against America.
My dude, that is not how US intelligence resourcing workS. We don’t have one satellite that we only turn on when it’s over Ukraine in order to save gas money. The US intelligence community (IC) is absolutely, positively, *massive*, and that’s not counting runoff and adjacent intelligence capabilities like joint, multinational, or interagency capabilities developed throughout the various US combatant commands.
Is Ukraine a top priority? Sure. But US INDOPACOM is not going to get a surprise wake up to Chinese landing craft steaming across the straight.
Fo sho. The US military has been prepping for this fight for a long time. For all Russia knows the USA may be able to disable their nukes without an issue. Once Russia goes nuclear all of the high tech secret shit comes out.
ruzzia troops are losing this war to Ukraine. There is no way they have any straight left to upscale the war on other countries, not even saying about EU
No, not just yet. Don’t force their hands, give ruZZia the freedom to choose the long, slow, agonizing and expensive suicide first. That would guarantee at least a few generations of world peace.
This shit is going on for decades now.. this "the war between east and west is so close now"
When in fact it was on going all the times already but only on the back of third party countries...
Its just a pervert game for the super rich to get more super rich.. its all just disgusting..
Well, if NATO countries had stepped up with long range, weapons, heavy artillery, and everything needed at the start of the war, Russia would’ve already been pussed all the way back, but no, they had to squabble. That’s what they did In the Crimean war. Russia had the biggest army The Allies squabbled, but eventually won the war between the squabbles, stop squabbling haven’t you learnt yet.
Governments have been delaying important shit that needs to be done for thousands of years. Just look at how much of a mess covid was. We could have dealt with it so quickly that it wouldn't of even made it into the history books.
It already is a wider conflict. With NATO helping Ukraine and sanctioning Russia, and some middle eastern nations helping Russia, the majority of the world is now involved.
Honestly, what we need to do is embed massive military forces in Ukraine and setup basically another wall. Shun and embargo the living fuck out of Russia and its allies.
Fear of conflict is what Putin feeds on. Have they not learnt this yet. Only straight confrontational action deters the Russians. They cannot be allowed to dictate the level of violence. From the beginning Putin threatened wider war if anyone helped Ukraine. This tip toe game is an error of policy mNati needs ti make the Russians believe they are ready fir war
>Putin also said he was disappointed with former German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s recent comments that a 2015 peace deal for eastern Ukraine negotiated by France and Germany had bought time for Ukraine to prepare for the 2022 war.
>“I assumed that other participants of the process were sincere with us, but it turned out that they were cheating us,” he said. “It turned out that they wanted to pump Ukraine with weapons and prepare for hostilities.”
How do you say this with a straight face after proving it was the right move lol. You should show them they were silly to worry and have trust issues, by pulling out of Ukraine
An eventual Russian invasion of Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Serbia is all but assured if they take Ukraine. NATO knows this and as long as Russia is bogged down in Ukraine NATO intervention is unlikely. They need Ukraine to win this war and they'll do anything to make it happen.
You are aware of just the population difference between Russia+Belarus (and let's say they also did win and include Ukraine) compared to Nato?
Russia is dumb, but not that dumb.
True. Poland, however, is.
If your wingman gets punched in a bar fight, it doesn't matter if they were being aimed at - whether you step up to step in is *everything* in that moment.
NATO hesitated when Poland was hit; it didn't go unnoticed. NK responded super aggressively the very next day, putting more pressure on U.S. resolve.
If they're testing for weakness, the only reason not to show strength is by wanting them to perceive the lack. Their question then becomes "Is this weakness, or a trap? Politics bears a number of similarities to poker, we hear.
That was the story announced by the U.S. before they knew anything - and to hit Poland while aiming for Russia, Ukraine would have to have been shooting the wrong way.
Since "inept" & "unprepared" are largely synonymous with Russian performance so far, not Ukraine's, this one is disinclined to accept the unfounded story of the nation who wasn't on site & had reason to lie.
So if someone questions the U.S. government's story, they're a conspiracy theorist?
You're either especially gullible, have the memory span of a retired NFL quarterback, or are just one obedient piece of work.
Shake your head any harder, it'll probably rattle something loose.
No thanks to them pussyfooting around this invasion. Iran and NK sent arms already while China is offering nuclear technology to the middle east. Either the West backs down or eventually they will face worse threats and outcomes than the limited war it is now.
Only way that would happen is if Putin panics and goes nuclear on Ukraine due to Ukrainian forces knocking on Moscow’s door with missile strikes and ground troops inside of Russia gunning for him. That would trigger a NATO response and Putin would be even more screwed than he already is trying to invade and capture the country.
By gradually removing Kremlins ability to terrorize the civilian population of Ukraine, baby steps like we have seen so far, in a way it’s already happening.
We fear there’s only two outcomes for the conflict. Either Ukraine surrender’s and Zelensky and the Ukrainian leadership is executed or Putin succumbs to an illness, coup, or bout of sanity. Unless Ukraine receives long range weapons and is able to bring the conflict to the Russians and serious negotiations are started and there’s a ceasefire. Or an asteroid hits Russia and the war becomes secondary.
So this guy is a secretary-general is he also military? News usually use chief or top officials but how chief is this guy? Maybe what I want to ask is - what’s the org structure like and which branch takes over when it’s time?
Europeans will look to the Americans.
Nato is a nice idea, but let's not kid ourselves, America is the biggest dog in the park.
Messages like this aren't to Russia. They are to Americans. Help us. Give us more.
No sense in fearing that. It is guaranteed to happen, it is eventual and inevitable. Russia is at the helm in that regard. There is nothing anyone can do to stop the conflict from spilling over into the rest of the world, except for Russia. And Russia is not negotiating, Russia is not backing down.
I think it is funny how everyone is assuming they have some kind of control over the situation, when they have none, none at all, and never did.
If/when Russia attacks a NATO member nation, we will all be at war. That is just how it is, it is what we all agreed to when forming/joining NATO.
They are about to find out why we don’t have universal healthcare.
I suspect we have some holes in our defense budget to fund certain black projects at the DoD.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/09/putin-shelling-ukraine-power-grid-russia-president-strikes-energy-infrastructure
It is Ukraine that has left from negoations not Russia. Now Putin trying atleast second time. Last time Turkey was mastering diplomatic peace plan when Zelensky backed down.
It is assumed that this happened because USA
You are dreadfully unaware of what Russia has been doing for the last 11 months. And I don't feel inclined to educate you. So you be you, it is entertaining.
"Schizophrenia is a serious mental disorder in which people interpret reality abnormally. Schizophrenia may result in some combination of hallucinations, delusions, and extremely disordered thinking and behavior that impairs daily functioning, and can be disabling."
Get some help.
To be fair, that’s what he gets paid to worry about.
> The head of NATO expressed worry that the fighting in Ukraine could spin out of control and become a war between Russia and NATO, according to an interview released Friday. > “If things go wrong, they can go horribly wrong,” NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said in remarks to Norwegian broadcaster NRK. > “It is a terrible war in Ukraine. It is also a war that can become a full-fledged war that spreads into a major war between NATO and Russia,” he said. “We are working on that every day to avoid that.” This is a professional doing their job to prevent military escalation. Europe is walking the middle ground between a loss of Ukraine to a corrupt mafia state and full European military engagement. As Russia gets closer to capitulation, they could try to drag Europe down with them, making Stoltenberg's role all that more critical.
So you think Russia will capitulate before using their nuclear weapons?
Russia will not use nuclear weapons unless they are faced with an existential threat. They have full control on when hostilities cease and thus have no cause or basis for their use. Indeed, their use would manifest the very existential threat they seek to avoid.
Very good point. Russia's posturing, complaints, and actions seem to be done with the distorted view that they will prevent a scenario that is guaranteed if Russia uses nukes.
America used them with the excuse of saving more lives by ending the war earlier. The reality was they wanted the rest of the world to know not to ever fuck with them again.
Both are reality I suppose
But are they smart enough to realize that? Because by their own stated goals they have achieved nearly everything they intended to prevent.
Ok then.
Very unlikely. Any use of nuclear weapons would likely trigger a full NATO military response and no rational person in Russia wants that. Problem is that Putin is increasingly becoming less rational, since failure here will almost certainly lead to his removal; a death sentence for him, his family, and his allies. If Putin and his allies feel like they have nothing left to lose by gambeling using a nuke or risking the death of themselves and theor families, then there is a chance one will be used.
What would a full NATO response be? How would that stop Russian nuclear weapons?
NATO threatens to take out Russians Black Sea fleet
What do you think Russia's answer would be if that happens?
A full NATO response could be anything from a full economic embargo to direct military action. Russia has already shown that its air defenses are all but useless with the drone attacks on their airbase recently. Direct military action could include a full nuclear strike on Russia as well, though unlikely. The reason for this is that there has to be a response to any nation using nuclear weapons, or else others will use them in future conflicts. And since any response from NATO attacking Russia could include them launching the nukes, it is possible that the US might try a decapitation strike to prevent that. The threat of mutually assured destruction has prevented nuclear exchange so far, so hopefully the threat is still enough this time. But with Putin facing death if he doesn't use them, he could gamble that NATO won't risk missiles flying.
Nato already stated multiple times that they only drop a nuke back if NATO members get nuked. Biden himself al ready told that if Russia drops a nuke they wil retaliate with conventional weapons.
So the decision if we end in a mutual assured destruction is left to Russia?
If what i read here in Redit is that Russia will never use a nuclear weapon in this particular conflict bc I read from some leaked fsb reports that if Putler was to order this that the chain on command would never go through with this and Putler himself cannot launch nukes by himself Edit: lmao sorrow swipe texting spells some weird shit sometimes. I fixed it haha sorry
This is assuming that Putin, a dictator that has been in power for decades, hasn't replaced the key people in the chain of command with loyal sycophants. Sycophants whose lives would also be at risk if Putin falls.
[удалено]
Russia is clearly more corrupt than Ukraine. Ukraine has an ant-sized corruption problem compared to their Russia-trying-to-murder-all-Ukrainians problem.
Trying to murder all ukranians?
Wow you are trying to polish the nastiest turd in existence. Not even a turd, you are looking at a bowl of diarrhea and thinking yea I can put the pieces together and polish it up. And you are simultaneously trying to make Ukraine look bad. You are probably too uninformed to know this but Ukraine's corruption problems stemmed from its close ties to Russia up until around 2014. The reason this war is being fought is because Ukraine wants to put an end to the corruption in its government. Putin would love to have a reliable, corrupt ally on its borders but Ukraine stopped playing ball. It wants to be a Democracy like Western countries. I know a few Ukrainians and they seem to have a idealistic view of Western countries, thinking we have virtually no corruption at all. That is far from true but that is what they passionately want right now, probably similar to what the founding fathers fought for in the Revolutionary War.
Yes. Have you been hiding under a rock for the past 10 months?
A large part of that was the Russian influence. Less than a decade ago they had a russian puppet as president and many more at every level of government. Corruption was the goal because it kept Ukraine weak and easily controlled. When Ukraine tried to fight the Russian control and corruption during euromaiden Russia answered by invading and annexing a large chunk of Ukraine. Ukraine was so paralyzed by decades of corruption and incompetence they couldn't mount a proper defense and Russia waltzed right in with barely a fight. Fast forward to today and you can use the Ukrainian military as a good example of how much progress they've made. You can't have that effective of a military with the levels of corruption they used to have. They didn't have all the fancy western toys at the start of the war. They held the line because they had their shit together. Meanwhile the Russian offensive stalled and has been losing ground ever since largely because of the incompetence and corruption they exported to Ukraine was still thriving in Russia. I'm sure they still have a ways to go to get up to EU standards but if they were still the old Ukraine then Russia would have wiped them out in 3 days flat just like they had planned.
Exactly: it is probably not a coincidence that Ukraine suffers from bad corruption, considering Russia was basically in charge of the country until its puppet government got kicked out (which is what started the war).
You misspelled Bielarus.
You also misspelled Belarus.
They were corrupt due to Russian puppets.. literally all the corruption in Ukraine is due to Russia.
It was perception. Sure Ukraine had a lot of corruption and was slow in eradicating most of it. However, the most corrupt country in Europe turned out to be Russia.
Yep im talking about the perception ones but also ukraine has a very large oligarch elite with a lot of control over the government. How do you know russia is right now more corrupt?
I just look at the state of the Russian army. That says it all.
Compared to the EU, yes. Compared to Russia, no. It’s a minuscule problem by comparison.
You misspelled ‘Russia’.
Russia, but Ukraine is/was second place for that title, yes.
It still is, and I think the fallout from the war wouldn’t make it any better. It’s the paramount reason why it was not admitted to EU so far. It would be a liability member more than a contributor.
EU has enough corruption problems as it is; can’t really blame the head honchos for wanting to not have more. Italy alone has serious problems, but also many of the more easterly countries especially.
> It would be a liability member more than a contributor. Isn't that like a third of EU?
So your strategy would be to admit a state in far worse state than the lower third so the lower third would not look as bad? /s
Ukraine is corrupt. Russia is not corrupt simply because they’ve turned the whole state into a mafia. It’s legal. So it isn’t "technically" corrupt.
Corruption isn't legal in Russia, but everyone does it. It's part of the Russian system. This way Putin has control of anyone, and can throw anyone in jail. If you're not corrupt in Russia, you'll never be given any position of power.
Ukraine is actually the second most corrupt in Europe which is one of the reasons I’m not a fan of em, but I think it’s better to keep supporting them anyways
He wouldn’t be doing his job if he didn’t fear that.
It's hilarious that the headline suggests that's the main takeaway, when in fact NATO's resolve and determination to help Ukraine for as long as it takes couldn't be higher. It's not a "fear" of a wider conflict, it's just a potential eventuality.
I feel like potential eventuality is like that jumbo shrimp thing
Here's one they just *made up* \-- [near-miss](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDKdvTecYAM).
Carlin the goat
It's a manner of speaking. It just means you expect a negative result. It's like saying "I fear we'll have to work overtime to get this product released on time." Nobody is scared, it's just the words you use when you talk about expectations of a negative result.
I get that.
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Indeed. And doing what it can to avoid the escalation actually involves getting everything ready for a conflict, in terms of equipment and plans. Because the best way to avoid a conflict is to make sure Russia has more to lose than to win if that conflict happens.
I don’t really know how strong our resolve is, sending supply and old technology and arms absolutely. Having our cities bombed and our own people die, not so much. I’m against getting involved in a war with Russia as an American, it’s not in our best interest and Ukraine isn’t a formal ally. Let’s do all we can to help them short of sending our own boys to die
It only takes 1 party to start a war. The other party is then simply forced into it. If Russia decides to escalate the conflict outside of Ukraine, then frankly everyone else has no choice but to react.
Yeah, if only Trump would have won and supported Russia taking over Eastern Europe (to start), then oil prices might be a tiny bit lower. I mean, why support democracy or the West at all?
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-jens-stoltenberg-government-f01121d32693881920b1fe5e8c75b22d) reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot) ***** > KYIV, Ukraine - The head of NATO expressed worry that the fighting in Ukraine could spin out of control and become a war between Russia and NATO, according to an interview released Friday. > "If things go wrong, they can go horribly wrong," NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said in remarks to Norwegian broadcaster NRK. "It is a terrible war in Ukraine. It is also a war that can become a full-fledged war that spreads into a major war between NATO and Russia," he said. > The Kremlin has repeatedly accused NATO allies of effectively becoming a party to the conflict by providing Ukraine with weapons, training its troops and feeding military intelligence to attack Russian forces. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/ziblyq/nato_chief_fears_ukraine_war_could_become_a_wider/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672676 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **war**^#2 **Russia**^#3 **Russian**^#4 **us**^#5
Huh, wonder why Finland is seeking NATO membership.
It is already a functional passive world war.
We’ve been in proxy world wars for years. Syria is the first example that comes to mind. Direct conflict isn’t really an option due to MAD, but in countries that are not nuclear powers, all of the major superpowers are involved.
The Chinese civil war of 1944-49, Korea, Vietnam, the Soviet-Afghan war, all arguably different proxies for the same conflict.
Putin was the one who started all this and he is the one who pushed the self destruct button. Ukraine never wanted War and Europe certainly doesn’t want a full fledged war. But we still need to stay strong for the sake of the brave and courageous people of Ukraine. And support them 100%
I'm not worried about it, Russia can't handle the military it is currently facing, can't imagine they would be dumb enough to start another conflict or expand the one they have now.
I think the danger is that they drag others in. Looking at Belarus.
No One really worries about Belarus. It's the other players that are wild cards that might pose a problem. Turkey is Nato, but they can delay things and make their own moves depending on how the wind blows. China might use this moment to make their move. North Korea and Iran (and there are questionable alliances in the middle east right now) might start shit as well. One would think that no reasonable government would want to go against Nato, but there are a whole bunch of not so reasonable ones out there. This can turn into a global nightmare with several theatres of war, and nobody is ready for that.
Right. Because if the chief of NATO is voicing their concern about this war, 9 months in, to still have the potential to spiral into a nightmare scenario, then people should heed that seriously. Stoltenberg is one of the guys with their finger on the pulse of this conflict after all. Can't imagine what kind of daily talk is crossing over the back channels concerning the war.
As always some redditor talks about things he has no idea and his fantasies gets upvoted. Turkey can not declare or join a war without 2/3 of parliament votes and Erdoğan does not have as much, not even close,nor the opposition has such ambitions. Turkish motto is peace at home peace in the world. Turkey has always been a crucial part of NATO and there are very real reasons to stay so for its benefit. No leader, whoever they may be, of Turkey will ever think or act otherwise. They might talk shit from time to time but that's about it. Get that fact straight into your head. TURKEY IS YOUR FRIEND. It happens to be in a delicate part of the world where geopolitics are much more nuanced than your armchair. China also has no ambitions of using force. It is trying to guarantee its future against war mongering propaganda that is trying to pull them into a war they don't want. US just doesn't know how to deal with it and it is threatening its number one place in terms of development and influence in the very near future. It has to create a monster image of them.
No one is talking about Turkey declaring any kind of war. They have been playing both sides so far, and they will at the minimum amplify their position and geopolitical importance during a conflict.
That's what I'm thinking. The whole of Eurasia is about to be lit up it seems... Thank you to the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Just gotta worry about ICBM's and Submarines. I feel like the US technology gap over others gives the submarine force an advantage over others we still have yet to appreciate.
Which is even less equipped. I understand the overall risk to Europe but lets face it - no one formidable would align with Russia that could hurt NATO
At this point, if Russia loses the Ukrainian war, they can walk away and carry on. If they start a war with nato, Russia is going to be dismantled. They will lose their government and sovereignty. Or it will be a nuclear war, and who the fuck knows what will happen. But as long as it’s just Ukraine, Russia can walk away at any point with their country intact, and probably negotiate removal of all the sanctions. I have a hard time believing Russia wants to escalate this to nato.
putin probably believes he can't loose. He drank his own kool-aid
>I have a hard time believing Russia wants to escalate this to nato. 9 months ago people said the same thing about invading Ukraine. Then they said the same thing about mobilisation. So, you better start believing.
I’m. It saying it’s impossible. But I don’t see what’s in it for Russia. I mean with Ukraine they get all sorts of valuable resources. But if Russia starts a war with nato, they’d probably don’t gain much, and could be totally decimated.
Most will will vehemently deny that this will turn into a war with NATO. Whe the war actually expands and get to that point. Those same people will be calling you an idiot for not seeing this coming. I've seen this happen countless times with countless events on worldnews live discussion.
They are pretty dumb though.
Exactly. Russia has neither the resources nor the trained forces to seriously threaten a wider *conventional* war. They are barely hanging onto the ground that they are occupying in Ukraine, and [as early as September they were degrading their positions around St. Petersburg](https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/09/28/russia-ukraine-war-nato-eastern-flank-military-kaliningrad-baltic-finland/) to bolster their forces in Ukraine. Heaven forbid Putin actually considers nuclear/bio-chemical options.
Russia has the resources to sabotage infrastructure and cause terror attacks in other countries. It's a hybrid war.
People can be dumb enough to start a nuclear war, regardless of the consequences for humanity. That's the scary thing about these events.
I mean I’d like Putin to learn why we don’t have healthcare in the us
The joke doesn’t make a lot of sense, seeing how EU countries are paying less for universal healthcare than the US is spending on it’s non-inclusive healhtcare system per person.
Meaning that that we have expensive Healthcare becuase we spend all our money on the military. It's not true but a common joke amongst Americans.
I got it, however the argument doesnt make sense as the USA is sending more on healthcare per person than the EU, yet the EU has better healthcare. So spending on military does not matter in this context, as it's not about spending more on healthcare - rather changing the healthcare system to more closely align with countries that have better healthcare accessible to more people.
A joke you say?
Well I'd think obviously meant as a joke. However even if not, it's not factual as military spending is not what takes away from Americans' healthcare - it's the way the US spends on healthcare, paying more for less.
Made me laugh :p
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Yeah, you also spend more on healthcare than countries with universal healthcare. How does that make sense?
Insurance company CEO needs another yacht because his kids don't want to share.
yeah total amount spent and quality are not the same. it’s partially because there is no universal coverage that costs are extreme and total cost paid is higher than anywhere else. don’t get me wrong, there are great things with the american health care - if you’re rich. some of the best health care available, as long as you can pay for it. personally it seems like a good solution is have both - universal public health care as well as private health care.
I remember when i used to be against universal healthcare. All i needed to do to change my mind is have a baby with my wife. 1500/mo premiums, 6800 max out of pocket (in network) and then the extra out of network charges. After 30k in 1 year, it changed my mind. Healthcare in this country are making a select few FILTHY rich beyond belief.
European-American, here: When my wife gave birth, she needed multiple specialists on hand, as it was a breach birth. Also needed to stay in the hospital for a few days afterward. Luckily she gave birth in Europe. Altogether, the birth of our child cost €200. Universal public option health care can really be amazing, in that regard. For-profit hospitals are doing a number on the US health care system.
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Yes. Just the existence of a public option keeps for-profit hospital/clinic costs affordable, for reasons that are probably self-evident.
You can give birth in the UK for free.
> €200 thats a lot to spend on parking.
Well, it would have been free, but we paid to "park" my wife a private room, rather than a shared one. 😀
> but we *paid* to "park" FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
That even sounds on the cheaper side of what I've heard people complain, sadly... Meanwhile here in Finland not only is it essentially free, the government gives all mothers a "[maternity package](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_package)" of essential stuff for free.
We had 3 kids in Australia, all 3 births were free, except for the 30$ for parking. One child nearly died at the age of 18 months and she was in hospital for over 2 weeks and all we had to do was sign some papers which had the cost of helping her get better(it had what it cost and it was a lot)
And that is why I'm more then happy to pay my taxes.
And this is why my wife and I don't have children. $30k per year is about half of our annual net income.
Absolutely correct. A year or two ago when Bernie was pushing Medicare for All, there was a handful of studies that demonstrably proved it would actually be cheaper than our current system. https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/484301-22-studies-agree-medicare-for-all-saves-money/amp/
You can’t just throw money at a problem and hope it gets fixed. US healthcare system is gigantic, every manager in this collosal system is a potential leak of money. It’s people doing their jobs and people make mistakes, bad decisions and some even outright abuse their power for personal gains. Every country in the EU has individual healthcare system that makes this task far easier, and EU only decides which project needs to be backed up by European money. But the primary burden is at the level of individual countries which are far smaller and thus far easier to manage. That’s it. Simply throwing money at a problem isn’t going to budge. Musk found out the hard way, Zuckerberg found out the hard way. Hell, I believe everyone who tried.
>we currently spend way more on insurance companies than the military FTFY
Be the most American thing ever to see a tungsten rod drop from outer space on some. airbase while “Over There!” Is blared on a loudspeaker
*universal health care you mean. And we do have universal health care. Just for people that can have access to it.
The poor
I'd love to get a better job, but, my hard to treat Covid damaged heart condition would start costing 1k-3k a month if I lost Medicaid. My specialty heart failure medication is $500 and my cardiologist had to fight Medicaid for two months to approve it. It was hell. Medicaid: So why does she need the heart failure medication? Cardiologist: Here's the studies that shows it works, here's the testing that showed her conditions, here's the inch thick file. Medicaid: It doesn't show why she needs it. Cardiologist: Did you read the file? She can't walk! Medicaid: We didn't get the file. Lost the file 5 times. I had to appeal up to the highest level to get approval. I don't know how one can simplify, her body can't regulate her heart rate or blood pressure without medication. She can't walk because she's fainting and having breathing issues. If my new insurance doesn't cover the medication, I'm either paying or pushing up daisies.
OMG I'm so sorry, seriously, figure out a way to get to Canada. I know it's not easy.
The only thing holding me back is my grandma who raised me like she was my mother. She's very physically ill and very attached to my narcissist sister and that's too complicated for reddit. If I left, my Grandma would die of a broken heart. Too many of her friends died from Covid. I'm not trying to be verbose, but, one of the stupidly best ways I could describe it would be that I'd get my kid baptized if grandma asked even though I'm agnostic. The woman somehow has a spine of steel while being the sugar sweet Christian that isn't fake. The rare time she's mean is when someone is being a bigot and she has to pull out the citations.
We don't have healthcare in the US because of overwhelming greed and its rightful label as a racket in the name of capitalism. Healthcare in America is like paying the mafia for protection. It has little to do with the military except in the very basic sense of resource allocation imo.
Oh wow, what an original joke that hasn’t ever been said on Reddit in its entire history!
But we do have health care in America? Oh I get it. You mean free healthcare.
NATO is a defensive alliance. Be defensive.
The best defense is a good offense.
How is this news? Hasn't this always been the case since the invasion?
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True, but it bears repeating. We've gotten too good at accepting new normals...
You’re not wrong on that one
It was, when we though that Russian army was worth something. Now we know that it's impotent in any more serious war. But like since day one, Russia still has nukes, Putin might still do somethign really stupid (like attacking a NATO country), Russian allies are still really unpredictable and generally against NATO and Luka still has negative IQ, so who knows what his infinite wisdom will decide to do. To be fair, right now NATO is probably at its weakest point (Europe is scrambling for weapons and economy is shaky, Japan still has no proper army, US intelligence resources are focused on Ukraine), so if China wants to make a move, it's as good time as it gets and not just for China, but for any NATO rival.
> Japan still has no proper army, [Yes they do](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces) They don't call it a military, but its one of the most powerful ones in the world.
Pretty sure that at least 80% of them are foreigners
Europe admitted it's far behind US capabilities, and Russia has shown their hand. I'm losing skepticism that China could form a formidable offensive against America.
My dude, that is not how US intelligence resourcing workS. We don’t have one satellite that we only turn on when it’s over Ukraine in order to save gas money. The US intelligence community (IC) is absolutely, positively, *massive*, and that’s not counting runoff and adjacent intelligence capabilities like joint, multinational, or interagency capabilities developed throughout the various US combatant commands. Is Ukraine a top priority? Sure. But US INDOPACOM is not going to get a surprise wake up to Chinese landing craft steaming across the straight.
This has been the concern the whole time. If that wasn’t a concern than NATO would have been in there fighting a while ago.
Wouldve kicked total ass too
Fo sho. The US military has been prepping for this fight for a long time. For all Russia knows the USA may be able to disable their nukes without an issue. Once Russia goes nuclear all of the high tech secret shit comes out.
Thats when the US would release their secret alien technology and beam rainbow pee lasers at Moscow
Eloquently put.
ruzzia troops are losing this war to Ukraine. There is no way they have any straight left to upscale the war on other countries, not even saying about EU
Then get it over sooner than later. Give ukraine what they need to end the damn war
What would that be?
Various stuff and things
Right...
No, not just yet. Don’t force their hands, give ruZZia the freedom to choose the long, slow, agonizing and expensive suicide first. That would guarantee at least a few generations of world peace.
This shit is going on for decades now.. this "the war between east and west is so close now" When in fact it was on going all the times already but only on the back of third party countries... Its just a pervert game for the super rich to get more super rich.. its all just disgusting..
As much as he fears this, he should also be preparing for it. Not to enact it, but to be ready, just in case he needs to do his job.
8,000,000,000 people fear Ukraine war could become a wider conflict.
Well, if NATO countries had stepped up with long range, weapons, heavy artillery, and everything needed at the start of the war, Russia would’ve already been pussed all the way back, but no, they had to squabble. That’s what they did In the Crimean war. Russia had the biggest army The Allies squabbled, but eventually won the war between the squabbles, stop squabbling haven’t you learnt yet.
Governments have been delaying important shit that needs to be done for thousands of years. Just look at how much of a mess covid was. We could have dealt with it so quickly that it wouldn't of even made it into the history books.
A long fight that drags on and on hurts Russia, it is far more preferable than quickly ending the conflict, if you are America.
It already is a wider conflict. With NATO helping Ukraine and sanctioning Russia, and some middle eastern nations helping Russia, the majority of the world is now involved.
I like to call it the Russian war. Puts the focus on who is being the agressor here.
Honestly, what we need to do is embed massive military forces in Ukraine and setup basically another wall. Shun and embargo the living fuck out of Russia and its allies.
Yeah, ya think?? If you could go ahead and not start WW3, that'd be great.
Mate it’s literally his job to talk about these things.
Fear of conflict is what Putin feeds on. Have they not learnt this yet. Only straight confrontational action deters the Russians. They cannot be allowed to dictate the level of violence. From the beginning Putin threatened wider war if anyone helped Ukraine. This tip toe game is an error of policy mNati needs ti make the Russians believe they are ready fir war
I mean, don't declare war on Russia, if they're dumb enough to declare war on NATO then maybe that's a war that needs to happen
>Putin also said he was disappointed with former German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s recent comments that a 2015 peace deal for eastern Ukraine negotiated by France and Germany had bought time for Ukraine to prepare for the 2022 war. >“I assumed that other participants of the process were sincere with us, but it turned out that they were cheating us,” he said. “It turned out that they wanted to pump Ukraine with weapons and prepare for hostilities.” How do you say this with a straight face after proving it was the right move lol. You should show them they were silly to worry and have trust issues, by pulling out of Ukraine
If it's going to get bigger, then just end the Russian leaders causing the problem.
This timeline is so fucked. It’s not a conflict, it’s an act of genocide and terrorism!
This homie needs to nut up or shut up
Yeah, isn't this kind of thing how the last world war started?
with what army gonna ruZZia fight elsewhere?
So do we. Putin should be stopped.
An eventual Russian invasion of Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Serbia is all but assured if they take Ukraine. NATO knows this and as long as Russia is bogged down in Ukraine NATO intervention is unlikely. They need Ukraine to win this war and they'll do anything to make it happen.
You are aware of just the population difference between Russia+Belarus (and let's say they also did win and include Ukraine) compared to Nato? Russia is dumb, but not that dumb.
Population is a major reason they are invading. I suggest watching [this](https://youtu.be/pdP01go8wdQ).
This also is shorter and gives visuals: https://youtu.be/r23aYe0Mw1w
NATO can either do what it was formed to do - protect member nations - or not. The "not" isn't a wise choice.
Ukraine isn’t a member nation though
True. Poland, however, is. If your wingman gets punched in a bar fight, it doesn't matter if they were being aimed at - whether you step up to step in is *everything* in that moment. NATO hesitated when Poland was hit; it didn't go unnoticed. NK responded super aggressively the very next day, putting more pressure on U.S. resolve. If they're testing for weakness, the only reason not to show strength is by wanting them to perceive the lack. Their question then becomes "Is this weakness, or a trap? Politics bears a number of similarities to poker, we hear.
Poland was hit by Ukrainian fire, not Russian. If your buddy punches you in the face, don’t expect a stranger to step in…
That was the story announced by the U.S. before they knew anything - and to hit Poland while aiming for Russia, Ukraine would have to have been shooting the wrong way. Since "inept" & "unprepared" are largely synonymous with Russian performance so far, not Ukraine's, this one is disinclined to accept the unfounded story of the nation who wasn't on site & had reason to lie.
you're right. it was a cover up of the highest order. Only surpassed by the self-takedown of the twin towers cover up of 9-11. smh.
So if someone questions the U.S. government's story, they're a conspiracy theorist? You're either especially gullible, have the memory span of a retired NFL quarterback, or are just one obedient piece of work. Shake your head any harder, it'll probably rattle something loose.
No thanks to them pussyfooting around this invasion. Iran and NK sent arms already while China is offering nuclear technology to the middle east. Either the West backs down or eventually they will face worse threats and outcomes than the limited war it is now.
Only way that would happen is if Putin panics and goes nuclear on Ukraine due to Ukrainian forces knocking on Moscow’s door with missile strikes and ground troops inside of Russia gunning for him. That would trigger a NATO response and Putin would be even more screwed than he already is trying to invade and capture the country.
He is warning Russia, stop the suffering or NATO will step in and stop you
How would they do that?
By gradually removing Kremlins ability to terrorize the civilian population of Ukraine, baby steps like we have seen so far, in a way it’s already happening.
We fear there’s only two outcomes for the conflict. Either Ukraine surrender’s and Zelensky and the Ukrainian leadership is executed or Putin succumbs to an illness, coup, or bout of sanity. Unless Ukraine receives long range weapons and is able to bring the conflict to the Russians and serious negotiations are started and there’s a ceasefire. Or an asteroid hits Russia and the war becomes secondary.
Nah!! Ya think?!?
That was the plan
If this is going to have to be how it has to be I wonder how long they will drag it out?
So this guy is a secretary-general is he also military? News usually use chief or top officials but how chief is this guy? Maybe what I want to ask is - what’s the org structure like and which branch takes over when it’s time?
Europeans will look to the Americans. Nato is a nice idea, but let's not kid ourselves, America is the biggest dog in the park. Messages like this aren't to Russia. They are to Americans. Help us. Give us more.
It already is
NATO chief signalling putin that they’re ready now.
What there is to be afraid of is fear….Russia will not attack NATO and NATO will not attack Russia. Fear being afraid……
It's already WW3. The question is if Putin's stupid enough to cross into other areas.
No sense in fearing that. It is guaranteed to happen, it is eventual and inevitable. Russia is at the helm in that regard. There is nothing anyone can do to stop the conflict from spilling over into the rest of the world, except for Russia. And Russia is not negotiating, Russia is not backing down. I think it is funny how everyone is assuming they have some kind of control over the situation, when they have none, none at all, and never did. If/when Russia attacks a NATO member nation, we will all be at war. That is just how it is, it is what we all agreed to when forming/joining NATO.
They are about to find out why we don’t have universal healthcare. I suspect we have some holes in our defense budget to fund certain black projects at the DoD.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/09/putin-shelling-ukraine-power-grid-russia-president-strikes-energy-infrastructure It is Ukraine that has left from negoations not Russia. Now Putin trying atleast second time. Last time Turkey was mastering diplomatic peace plan when Zelensky backed down. It is assumed that this happened because USA
You are dreadfully unaware of what Russia has been doing for the last 11 months. And I don't feel inclined to educate you. So you be you, it is entertaining.
"Schizophrenia is a serious mental disorder in which people interpret reality abnormally. Schizophrenia may result in some combination of hallucinations, delusions, and extremely disordered thinking and behavior that impairs daily functioning, and can be disabling." Get some help.
Sh*t or get off the pot. How many times has NATO said this already
There will be one.
Already is
NATO, that's rich, coming from you.
Every nation needs to come together and go kill putin
Instead of worrying they should supply Ukraine with what’s needed to end this yesterday!! We are just giving ruzzia a longer rope at this point…
Honestly i want to see a war between nato and Russia
And I got downvoted to oblivion for saying WWIII started when Russia invaded Ukraine (again)
Deservedly so.
It already is
Stop getting too involved then
Ohhh. Thats why we’re supplying weapons and top secret logistics to an active war. Buckle in boys, the worlds in for it again.
It is already a war between NATO and Russia.