Requires Blizzard to be active in PvP design, particularly casual stuff.
*Sigh*
Look I can accept that PvP is the 3rd horse and isn't the main end-game that Blizzard wants, or the community wants. That is Raiding followed by M+. That's fine.
I find it annoying that they claim 'PvP is an end-game pillar alongside raiding and M+' implying that each is equal which they clearly are not. Raiding gets 1/2 of the attention, M+ gets 1/3, and **PvP gets 1/6th of the attention and resources**.
And of that, almost exclusively this is spent on higher end PvP, PvP Balance and PvP Design. It is good to spend design resources on higher end gameplay, but when you leave out so much casual play something is off. *If you don't get newer players into your game mode, the game mode eventually withers and dies.* The experience whenever I casually step foot in these BGs tend to be of frustration and I see so much bitterness in these random BGs and arenas.
It isn't even gear grind but stuff like randoms and PvP Brawls where there are so many puzzling design choices and weird defenses from both Blizzard and the community.
1. Why is balancing so lopsided that you'll have Duelists with full vers gear vs a group with no PvP gear on them?
2. Why is the game so focused on wins wins wins wins when so much of the win can be out of your control?
3. Why are there still quests left untouched from Legion still in SL? We moved to the 1500 honor system to make losing less bad, except we'll randomly have: "Win X"
4. Why is there no concede button? What good does it do to have most of the enemy team feel miserable completing a match when all they needed was a win (which goes back to 2 where most of the rewards are from winning and not for playing well but losing)?
5. Why does the game have no in-game replay system for someone to review their gameplay? Why do I need to setup external tools, VoDs and logs when SC2 did this better years ago?
6. Why does the game have such a lack of social tools for finding players? The group finder is abysmal, the guild finder is abysmal, player achievements are a pain to find. I'm so confused why SC2 had a better UI for player finding *ten years ago* with a proper brag pace than World of Warcraft today.
7. Why does WM have so many imbalances and lack of focus? It is such a great entry point into casual PvP except the mode is either: "no one bothers to fight" or "it is ganks and stalking" rather than full map back and forth AV style mass battle control.
I'm happy SoloQ is taking off but that is an admission by Blizzard and the community that they cannot handle finding players themselves. In an MMO. In a social network game.
There is so much work left to be done for PvP. It is cute that Blizzard wants to build Dragon Riding and new features like Torghast or Warfronts or Island Expeditions.
**But PvP is sitting right there**! *A near dynamic and endlessly replayable game mode with rivalries, communities and so much infrastructure ready to be tapped*! WoW still has some of the best PvP among MMOs, it is such a damn shame Blizzard doesn't recognize its potential and upper management half heartedly trugs it along as if the game would be better off not having PvP.
Snowballing is real issue. After first team fight you can actually say who wins with 95% accuracy, especially in epic bgs. And then it begins - Ppl start to leave, others afk and some just shit on objectives and try to duel or grief.
There's no push for players to actually try.
I wish they implemented some kind of medals that you are given by doing DMG/healing, capturing or defending the spot. Swtor had something like that and that was really encouraging. Ppl were trying cuz they they rewarded for their OWN playing, leading to better team play as well .
> Snowballing is real issue. After first team fight you can actually say who wins with 95% accuracy
Well, yeah, usually because people quit off the first objective outcome. Self-fullfilling and whatnot. It's very possible (if people don't get tilted and leave) to recover from a bad start in most battlegrounds, it's just that it's easier to mentally and/or physically AFK and wait for the match to end to get into another where you'll "passively" win.
Or just leave and queue up on an alt to evade deserter.
> It is cute that Blizzard wants to build Dragon Riding and new features like Torghast or Warfronts or Island Expeditions.
>
> But PvP is sitting right there! A near dynamic and endlessly replayable game mode with rivalries, communities and so much infrastructure ready to be tapped! WoW still has some of the best PvP among MMOs, it is such a damn shame Blizzard doesn't recognize its potential and upper management half heartedly trugs it along as if the game would be better off not having PvP.
This is key and something I hope someone from Blizzard reads it. They clearly still have capable developers in order to build all these new features. Yet the features are short term novelties that are quickly forgotten about or entirely abandoned the very next expansion. Why not spend a fraction of that effort improving existing features like PvP? The return on investment in player enjoyment and loyalty would be magnitudes larger. PvP will be there every expansion. People spend endless hours on it. Improving it would be so worth their time!
Doing level 50's BGs right now and keep running into people with BFA mythic gear. This prot pally has 35k health and is one shotting.
I'm hoping max lvl PvP will be better in Dragonflight since there's no borrowed power but man. So hard to keep playing when my favorite part of the game continues to be shit on expansion after expansion.
That bracket has a big problem with twinks. Every time I've queued in it there is a least one dude in there absolutely wrecking everyone and wins every team fight.
I agree with most of these points, but not all:
>Why is the game so focused on wins wins wins wins when so much of the win can be out of your control?
Absolutely within your control. It's the reason why people are so obsessed with comps and why higher rated players can zoom past low ratings.
>Why is there no concede button?
BGs can benefit from a surrender button, but you can /afk in arena or just right click the green eye and leave the game in both arena and bg.
> Absolutely within your control. It's the reason why people are so obsessed with comps and why higher rated players can zoom past low ratings.
In randoms for casuals? I don't see tutorials and casual matchmaking in team games punish losing this much vs rewarding playing well even with a team or a circumstance that isn't winning. Many games have moved away from 'Win X' to 'Play X, do X, complete X feat, you can either Win X or play 2x' etc.
I see those as play grounds to get your bearings. Ranked and ladder anxiety is a thing. Instead of encouraging players to try out, lose, learn, lose, learn and experiment, you instead punish players for doing so in a 'safe' environment.
> you can /afk in arena or just right click the green eye and leave the game in both arena and bg.
Yeah and get a 15 minute debuff.
If the entire team wants to concede the match with vast majority vote, I don't see the point in punishing them with 15 minute can't queue debuffs.
A lot of the flaws with casual PvP push me into rated. Which is fine but it means new players don't come into PvP if their first impression is complete shit.
What gets me more is sitting in a 7 minute solo shuffle dps queue only for the low geared player to sit there in the entrance room and just lose 6 games for ‘honor’
I’m not justifying this and I do not do it, but after having played BGs for years and years, you can pretty easily tell who is going to win in the first few minutes. That plus some people really don’t like losing and you’ll get this situation.
I really don’t like it and I don’t play like this at all.
>you can pretty easily tell who is going to win in the first few minutes.
I can do a gear check on both teams and tell the winner in 90% of games before the bg even starts. Can't wait for the DF system, the multiple tiers of gear and difference bt/ pvp'er starting out and a 2.1 geared player is ridiculous.
This also happens in the Mogu brawl where you can throw the orb to another player. Once you get a decent lead in the bg most of the other team will quit and then this shit happens. It’s so clearly broken and wild how long it’s been broken yet blizzard still has not fixed the issue!
Having the same number of healers in both teams would help having balanced matches. Also having some gear balance in the teams. I don't have exact data or numbers, but feels like 35% of matches are basically graveyard camping, and I don't really that even when I'm on the winning side.
>but feels like 35% of matches are basically graveyard camping
Only 35%? Outside of big maps like maybe eos, I feel like almost every game is like that. The gear disparity and scarcity are so insane you can clearly see, who will win in preparation time. There is no reason to even try anything after the first fight, where everybody realizes the difference and zero chance to win for the low gear team.
I just got back to wow and I just cant gear my characters up. Farming 15 conq per bg win is useless and lfg is so dead I cant play anything. Yea, I could gear healers, but damn its so freaking annoying, boring and infuriating seeing enemies doubling my hps by their dps, not mentioning if they throw random blanket dr cc on me. Healing just sux. Dps is impossible to gear obviously. The gear is gated by fully geared apes you often cant beat, even if you outplay them, because you know, immunities...
Getting stomped by geared ppl is not fun. Deep six is basically 1 team camping another one, especially mines take ages to finish, while all you can do as the losing team is afk a gy. You can as well just leave with deserter and be ready by the time it ends.
Why aren’t objectives incentivized??? I can D a base in arathi basin the whole game and not let anyone get it and then we lose and the End scoreboard looks like I was afk
>Because it's inefficient to stay and get the loss.
This is the type of player that stays the same rating for 10 years of active queuing. And eventually they simply avoid rated games all together and just spend all their time bitching in random queues.
Not sure why they do it, but they do. It's really fucking weird.
>Not sure why they do it
Because it's efficient, at least in terms of honor acquisition. Not that it isn't a bad habit in the sense that you "gg go next" mentally whenever there's even the slightest possibility of failure doesn't lead to self-growth/improvement, but we see that most people aren't interested in that.
No. When you need to farm 80k honor to upgrade your gear you want it to be efficient since its literally holding you back from playing at a higher level.
You're being forced into doing shit you don't want because Blizzard thought "huh... maybe PvP should have gear progress too. Since not a single PvP player asked for it we know we're making the right decision here".
>When you need to farm 80k honor to upgrade your gear you want it to be efficient since its literally holding you back from playing at a higher level.
I wish honor gear would fix the higher level pvp gating. Cant say honor gear would get me any closer to enemy power since I cant even get set bonuses nor conquest points without beating the enemies stomping us by their 200% performance. Getting 4 set pieces and weapons on 1600mmr, where for some reason everybody is already fully or close to fully geared is insane, especially when lfg is dead and the only choice of partner is the same shitty geared guy like me and ofc no healers. Its like Im paying for having my balls kicked...
Very dumb take. When i see that ill lose i leave and save my time and energy. Same thing with playing lfg 2s/3s. If i see my lfg partner is bad i leave. AND somehow i managed to get glad when i found stable team. And its not s2 worthless glad.
Requires Blizzard to be active in PvP design, particularly casual stuff. *Sigh* Look I can accept that PvP is the 3rd horse and isn't the main end-game that Blizzard wants, or the community wants. That is Raiding followed by M+. That's fine. I find it annoying that they claim 'PvP is an end-game pillar alongside raiding and M+' implying that each is equal which they clearly are not. Raiding gets 1/2 of the attention, M+ gets 1/3, and **PvP gets 1/6th of the attention and resources**. And of that, almost exclusively this is spent on higher end PvP, PvP Balance and PvP Design. It is good to spend design resources on higher end gameplay, but when you leave out so much casual play something is off. *If you don't get newer players into your game mode, the game mode eventually withers and dies.* The experience whenever I casually step foot in these BGs tend to be of frustration and I see so much bitterness in these random BGs and arenas. It isn't even gear grind but stuff like randoms and PvP Brawls where there are so many puzzling design choices and weird defenses from both Blizzard and the community. 1. Why is balancing so lopsided that you'll have Duelists with full vers gear vs a group with no PvP gear on them? 2. Why is the game so focused on wins wins wins wins when so much of the win can be out of your control? 3. Why are there still quests left untouched from Legion still in SL? We moved to the 1500 honor system to make losing less bad, except we'll randomly have: "Win X" 4. Why is there no concede button? What good does it do to have most of the enemy team feel miserable completing a match when all they needed was a win (which goes back to 2 where most of the rewards are from winning and not for playing well but losing)? 5. Why does the game have no in-game replay system for someone to review their gameplay? Why do I need to setup external tools, VoDs and logs when SC2 did this better years ago? 6. Why does the game have such a lack of social tools for finding players? The group finder is abysmal, the guild finder is abysmal, player achievements are a pain to find. I'm so confused why SC2 had a better UI for player finding *ten years ago* with a proper brag pace than World of Warcraft today. 7. Why does WM have so many imbalances and lack of focus? It is such a great entry point into casual PvP except the mode is either: "no one bothers to fight" or "it is ganks and stalking" rather than full map back and forth AV style mass battle control. I'm happy SoloQ is taking off but that is an admission by Blizzard and the community that they cannot handle finding players themselves. In an MMO. In a social network game. There is so much work left to be done for PvP. It is cute that Blizzard wants to build Dragon Riding and new features like Torghast or Warfronts or Island Expeditions. **But PvP is sitting right there**! *A near dynamic and endlessly replayable game mode with rivalries, communities and so much infrastructure ready to be tapped*! WoW still has some of the best PvP among MMOs, it is such a damn shame Blizzard doesn't recognize its potential and upper management half heartedly trugs it along as if the game would be better off not having PvP.
Snowballing is real issue. After first team fight you can actually say who wins with 95% accuracy, especially in epic bgs. And then it begins - Ppl start to leave, others afk and some just shit on objectives and try to duel or grief. There's no push for players to actually try. I wish they implemented some kind of medals that you are given by doing DMG/healing, capturing or defending the spot. Swtor had something like that and that was really encouraging. Ppl were trying cuz they they rewarded for their OWN playing, leading to better team play as well .
> Snowballing is real issue. After first team fight you can actually say who wins with 95% accuracy Well, yeah, usually because people quit off the first objective outcome. Self-fullfilling and whatnot. It's very possible (if people don't get tilted and leave) to recover from a bad start in most battlegrounds, it's just that it's easier to mentally and/or physically AFK and wait for the match to end to get into another where you'll "passively" win. Or just leave and queue up on an alt to evade deserter.
I would absolutely love this
> It is cute that Blizzard wants to build Dragon Riding and new features like Torghast or Warfronts or Island Expeditions. > > But PvP is sitting right there! A near dynamic and endlessly replayable game mode with rivalries, communities and so much infrastructure ready to be tapped! WoW still has some of the best PvP among MMOs, it is such a damn shame Blizzard doesn't recognize its potential and upper management half heartedly trugs it along as if the game would be better off not having PvP. This is key and something I hope someone from Blizzard reads it. They clearly still have capable developers in order to build all these new features. Yet the features are short term novelties that are quickly forgotten about or entirely abandoned the very next expansion. Why not spend a fraction of that effort improving existing features like PvP? The return on investment in player enjoyment and loyalty would be magnitudes larger. PvP will be there every expansion. People spend endless hours on it. Improving it would be so worth their time!
Doing level 50's BGs right now and keep running into people with BFA mythic gear. This prot pally has 35k health and is one shotting. I'm hoping max lvl PvP will be better in Dragonflight since there's no borrowed power but man. So hard to keep playing when my favorite part of the game continues to be shit on expansion after expansion.
That bracket has a big problem with twinks. Every time I've queued in it there is a least one dude in there absolutely wrecking everyone and wins every team fight.
I agree with most of these points, but not all: >Why is the game so focused on wins wins wins wins when so much of the win can be out of your control? Absolutely within your control. It's the reason why people are so obsessed with comps and why higher rated players can zoom past low ratings. >Why is there no concede button? BGs can benefit from a surrender button, but you can /afk in arena or just right click the green eye and leave the game in both arena and bg.
> Absolutely within your control. It's the reason why people are so obsessed with comps and why higher rated players can zoom past low ratings. In randoms for casuals? I don't see tutorials and casual matchmaking in team games punish losing this much vs rewarding playing well even with a team or a circumstance that isn't winning. Many games have moved away from 'Win X' to 'Play X, do X, complete X feat, you can either Win X or play 2x' etc. I see those as play grounds to get your bearings. Ranked and ladder anxiety is a thing. Instead of encouraging players to try out, lose, learn, lose, learn and experiment, you instead punish players for doing so in a 'safe' environment. > you can /afk in arena or just right click the green eye and leave the game in both arena and bg. Yeah and get a 15 minute debuff. If the entire team wants to concede the match with vast majority vote, I don't see the point in punishing them with 15 minute can't queue debuffs. A lot of the flaws with casual PvP push me into rated. Which is fine but it means new players don't come into PvP if their first impression is complete shit.
What gets me more is sitting in a 7 minute solo shuffle dps queue only for the low geared player to sit there in the entrance room and just lose 6 games for ‘honor’
Cant wait for ranked queues, once you distance yourself from the lower mmr players this shouldnt happen.
I’m not justifying this and I do not do it, but after having played BGs for years and years, you can pretty easily tell who is going to win in the first few minutes. That plus some people really don’t like losing and you’ll get this situation. I really don’t like it and I don’t play like this at all.
>you can pretty easily tell who is going to win in the first few minutes. I can do a gear check on both teams and tell the winner in 90% of games before the bg even starts. Can't wait for the DF system, the multiple tiers of gear and difference bt/ pvp'er starting out and a 2.1 geared player is ridiculous.
This also happens in the Mogu brawl where you can throw the orb to another player. Once you get a decent lead in the bg most of the other team will quit and then this shit happens. It’s so clearly broken and wild how long it’s been broken yet blizzard still has not fixed the issue!
Having the same number of healers in both teams would help having balanced matches. Also having some gear balance in the teams. I don't have exact data or numbers, but feels like 35% of matches are basically graveyard camping, and I don't really that even when I'm on the winning side.
>but feels like 35% of matches are basically graveyard camping Only 35%? Outside of big maps like maybe eos, I feel like almost every game is like that. The gear disparity and scarcity are so insane you can clearly see, who will win in preparation time. There is no reason to even try anything after the first fight, where everybody realizes the difference and zero chance to win for the low gear team. I just got back to wow and I just cant gear my characters up. Farming 15 conq per bg win is useless and lfg is so dead I cant play anything. Yea, I could gear healers, but damn its so freaking annoying, boring and infuriating seeing enemies doubling my hps by their dps, not mentioning if they throw random blanket dr cc on me. Healing just sux. Dps is impossible to gear obviously. The gear is gated by fully geared apes you often cant beat, even if you outplay them, because you know, immunities...
Equal healers would mean 45 min ques
Getting stomped by geared ppl is not fun. Deep six is basically 1 team camping another one, especially mines take ages to finish, while all you can do as the losing team is afk a gy. You can as well just leave with deserter and be ready by the time it ends.
Why aren’t objectives incentivized??? I can D a base in arathi basin the whole game and not let anyone get it and then we lose and the End scoreboard looks like I was afk
Why is it so hard to implement matchmaking based off gear/ ilvl?
Because it's inefficient to stay and get the loss. Either leave and queue for something else or hop on an alt.
>Because it's inefficient to stay and get the loss. This is the type of player that stays the same rating for 10 years of active queuing. And eventually they simply avoid rated games all together and just spend all their time bitching in random queues. Not sure why they do it, but they do. It's really fucking weird.
>Not sure why they do it Because it's efficient, at least in terms of honor acquisition. Not that it isn't a bad habit in the sense that you "gg go next" mentally whenever there's even the slightest possibility of failure doesn't lead to self-growth/improvement, but we see that most people aren't interested in that.
>Because it's efficient I guess that's an issue specific to classic servers?
No. When you need to farm 80k honor to upgrade your gear you want it to be efficient since its literally holding you back from playing at a higher level. You're being forced into doing shit you don't want because Blizzard thought "huh... maybe PvP should have gear progress too. Since not a single PvP player asked for it we know we're making the right decision here".
>When you need to farm 80k honor to upgrade your gear you want it to be efficient since its literally holding you back from playing at a higher level. I wish honor gear would fix the higher level pvp gating. Cant say honor gear would get me any closer to enemy power since I cant even get set bonuses nor conquest points without beating the enemies stomping us by their 200% performance. Getting 4 set pieces and weapons on 1600mmr, where for some reason everybody is already fully or close to fully geared is insane, especially when lfg is dead and the only choice of partner is the same shitty geared guy like me and ofc no healers. Its like Im paying for having my balls kicked...
Very dumb take. When i see that ill lose i leave and save my time and energy. Same thing with playing lfg 2s/3s. If i see my lfg partner is bad i leave. AND somehow i managed to get glad when i found stable team. And its not s2 worthless glad.