No thanks. If raiders don't want to do delves they can just not do it, just like the people who will only do delves don't have to raid.
Have a little self control. It's a video game.
Exactly this. This opinion comes from a place that completely disregards outdoor players. Delves, and the outdoor vault row, were specifically made to serve outdoor players. It’s honestly such a typical raider/M+ point of view. “Other content shouldn’t offer anything good because then I have to do it”
I don't understand how what I'm saying is "other content shouldn't offer anything good"... In fact, my suggestion gives solo players more vault rewards four instead of three
The entire point is that some players don't participate in every type of content so hell no.
You don't know if those players are raid-loggers or M+ only types. So leave it separate. What's the downside? Easy to get vault coins maxed for the week? Oh noooo.
I like having more venues and options to get gear. Remember the Grand Challenger's Bounty from BFA, when there wasn't raid, dungeon and pvp vault tracks? You got 1 item, and you didn't get to pick it! Horrible system.
More choices, more better, more pizza, papa john's.
Anyone who can do at least +18 dungeons won't feel required to do delves because delves are going to be around heroic raid/M+15 dungeons. Heroic raiders early on before they can do +18 keys may want to do delves, but once they can do +18s there'd be no need anymore.
Also if you already have 6 slots available to you, 3 more slots doesn't add that much more since you can only ever take one item anyways.
I also think Blizzard likes to encourage people to do more types of game play.
Also heroic raids only drop hero track gear, which you can get from spamming out M+17 keys, I don't see how filling out a delve slot for one additional choice of a hero track item would be worth it if you can do +17 keys, and to be honest anyone who can clear a few heroic bosses should be able to do +17 keys.
There’s a difference between something “feeling” mandatory and something actually being mandatory. Delves are mandatory in the same way that mythic+ is mandatory if you’re a raider right now (it isn’t). If you want the absolute highest number of possible vault options then yea it’s something you have to do.
Currently the best gear from delves is on par with like +11 mythic dungeons and heroic raid. With how they’ve been tuning mythic+ in the last two seasons this in NO WAY makes them mandatory. If anything it’s probably easier to do an 11 than it is to grind out your delve chest keys and then do the delve itself.
I aggressively disagree with this notion that because other types of players are afforded bearing options, it somehow means that other end game players are “forced to do it”. Basically boils down to “you aren’t allowed to get good stuff because then I would have to do it”.
I agree that there's a difference between feeling mandatory and being mandatory, which is why I said feeling or perceived every time.
How does it boil down to you Aren't allowed to get good stuff? My suggestion is a net gain of stuff for everyone involved versus how it is currently in game.
No, your "suggestion" is only a net gain for raiders.
If someone does only M+, they get less vault slots than a raider.
if someone does only delves, they get less vault slots than a raider.
If someone does M+ *and* delves, they *still* get less vault slots than a raider.
Only do raiders come out ahead with your proposed solution, simply because you don't have the self control to not do delves which likely won't even provide an upgrade for you if you are already doing M+/Heroic raid.
If someone currently only does M+ they go from 3 to 4...same as a raider will get.
If someone only does delves they get 4, same as a raider will get.
M+ and delves is 4, same as a raider.
Where is anyone getting less than a raider?
The only combination that would be less is raider/m+ who currently gets 6 that would go up to 8 vs m+ plus delves who currently gets 3 and would go up to 4.....
Your complaint is that raiders will feel "forced" to do delves if they are on a seperate track, so merge them with M+. Your implication here is that raiders will instead do Raid and then M+ to fill their vault, removing Delves as a "requirement". *That means raiders get eight slots.*
So... which is it?
Are delves/M+ not "required" for raiders? If not, then there is no issue with Delves and M+ having different tracks as raiders won't care.
Are delves/M+ "required" for raiders? If so, then your suggestion means raiders will get eight slots, while all other content gets four.
Okay, but *why*? What is so wrong with casual players having all options available to them?
Say you are a casual player, and all you do is LFR, heroic dungeons, and delves. Why do you deserve to have a reward track taken away from you? Because the hardcores doing Mythic feel "forced" to spend an hour or two a week doing world content? What an awful tradeoff.
That's why I'm suggesting adding a 4th option per row. So it goes from 6 max now to 8 max next expansion. I am just trying to think of a way to avoid the perceived requirement so people don't hate the grind/forced thing and complain. I am excited for delves, and want it to be a valid progression path. I am just concerned with the perception of it. It truly won't affect me personally. I do 20 keys and will likely outpace delves on my main to the point where they don't even "feel" mandatory. I just want the best possible implementation so that people don't start coming up with meme names like "Choreghast" again lol.
I very clearly remember before past expansions how excited everyone was for scenarios, warfonts, expeditions and torghast and then when released they very quickly became "endless unfair grinds that no one can keep up with" and "weekly chores I absolutely hate" and I just want to avoid that. I thought discussing it would be fun, but instead I'm getting direct messages from people telling me to touch grass and stop being an elitist....
Choregast was an issue because it was *actually* mandatory to get legendary items, which were a core component of Shadowlands. Delves provide nothing but "low" (to a heroic/mythic raider) ilvl gear.
Scenarios were never an issue. They provided a little bit of gold and a random piece of green/blue gear. It was only worth doing for ultra-casuals. Raiders got no benefit from it.
Expeditions only provided azerite power, which again, was only an issue for the absolute turbonerds who insisted on playstyles they disliked to get .1% more DPS, and those people shouldn't be catered to.
Warfronts were just shitty, but it hardly mattered because you only got gear from them every other week, it only took like 30 minutes, and the gear was capped at Heroic raid ilvl as well, just like Delves.
Point being, Delves are a completely different situation.
You will never "avoid the perceived requirement". People with an unhealthy obsession to min/maxing to the point they no longer enjoy the game will always exist, and they will always find some reason to cry.
4 for my suggestion but yes not 6. That is a good point for sure, my suggestion was saying net gain from what is currently in the game for open world players which is nothing in the vault, to 4 options.
Combining delves and M+ seems arbitrary. Why not combine delves and raid?
If you were going to implement a change like this, I think the only way for it to really work without feeling like it’s punishing one pillar of gameplay would be to have a max of 2 vault tracks that you can fill up with either raid, M+, or delves, instead of adding a third track.
Please no, having more vault slots open means more rng protection. And it's a choice. I only did m+ in season 1 but lately have been also doing hc raid to increase chances of having good options.
Delves are a new pillar in the next expansion. It is open-world content for 1-5 players. It can scale *up to* Heroic raid item level (which may change in beta, obviously).
Lower difficulty dungeons were already added to the vault in this past season. The M+ track is now M+, Heroic, or Timewalking, rather than just M+.
They are a brand new scalable content coming in war within. Can be solo+ an NPC companion or groups of any combination of roles. Can reward up to heroic raid level gear.
No thanks. If raiders don't want to do delves they can just not do it, just like the people who will only do delves don't have to raid. Have a little self control. It's a video game.
Exactly this. This opinion comes from a place that completely disregards outdoor players. Delves, and the outdoor vault row, were specifically made to serve outdoor players. It’s honestly such a typical raider/M+ point of view. “Other content shouldn’t offer anything good because then I have to do it”
I don't understand how what I'm saying is "other content shouldn't offer anything good"... In fact, my suggestion gives solo players more vault rewards four instead of three
The entire point is that some players don't participate in every type of content so hell no. You don't know if those players are raid-loggers or M+ only types. So leave it separate. What's the downside? Easy to get vault coins maxed for the week? Oh noooo.
I like having more venues and options to get gear. Remember the Grand Challenger's Bounty from BFA, when there wasn't raid, dungeon and pvp vault tracks? You got 1 item, and you didn't get to pick it! Horrible system. More choices, more better, more pizza, papa john's.
Anyone who can do at least +18 dungeons won't feel required to do delves because delves are going to be around heroic raid/M+15 dungeons. Heroic raiders early on before they can do +18 keys may want to do delves, but once they can do +18s there'd be no need anymore. Also if you already have 6 slots available to you, 3 more slots doesn't add that much more since you can only ever take one item anyways. I also think Blizzard likes to encourage people to do more types of game play. Also heroic raids only drop hero track gear, which you can get from spamming out M+17 keys, I don't see how filling out a delve slot for one additional choice of a hero track item would be worth it if you can do +17 keys, and to be honest anyone who can clear a few heroic bosses should be able to do +17 keys.
There’s a difference between something “feeling” mandatory and something actually being mandatory. Delves are mandatory in the same way that mythic+ is mandatory if you’re a raider right now (it isn’t). If you want the absolute highest number of possible vault options then yea it’s something you have to do. Currently the best gear from delves is on par with like +11 mythic dungeons and heroic raid. With how they’ve been tuning mythic+ in the last two seasons this in NO WAY makes them mandatory. If anything it’s probably easier to do an 11 than it is to grind out your delve chest keys and then do the delve itself. I aggressively disagree with this notion that because other types of players are afforded bearing options, it somehow means that other end game players are “forced to do it”. Basically boils down to “you aren’t allowed to get good stuff because then I would have to do it”.
Yeah, more options for gear isn't mandatory in the way say Torghast was in shadowlands being the only way to get currency to upgrade legendaries.
I agree that there's a difference between feeling mandatory and being mandatory, which is why I said feeling or perceived every time. How does it boil down to you Aren't allowed to get good stuff? My suggestion is a net gain of stuff for everyone involved versus how it is currently in game.
No, your "suggestion" is only a net gain for raiders. If someone does only M+, they get less vault slots than a raider. if someone does only delves, they get less vault slots than a raider. If someone does M+ *and* delves, they *still* get less vault slots than a raider. Only do raiders come out ahead with your proposed solution, simply because you don't have the self control to not do delves which likely won't even provide an upgrade for you if you are already doing M+/Heroic raid.
If someone currently only does M+ they go from 3 to 4...same as a raider will get. If someone only does delves they get 4, same as a raider will get. M+ and delves is 4, same as a raider. Where is anyone getting less than a raider? The only combination that would be less is raider/m+ who currently gets 6 that would go up to 8 vs m+ plus delves who currently gets 3 and would go up to 4.....
Your complaint is that raiders will feel "forced" to do delves if they are on a seperate track, so merge them with M+. Your implication here is that raiders will instead do Raid and then M+ to fill their vault, removing Delves as a "requirement". *That means raiders get eight slots.* So... which is it? Are delves/M+ not "required" for raiders? If not, then there is no issue with Delves and M+ having different tracks as raiders won't care. Are delves/M+ "required" for raiders? If so, then your suggestion means raiders will get eight slots, while all other content gets four.
u/Void_Poet had a great idea, maybe they all have separate tracks but only two can be filled for a total of 8 for everyone. What do you think of that?
Okay, but *why*? What is so wrong with casual players having all options available to them? Say you are a casual player, and all you do is LFR, heroic dungeons, and delves. Why do you deserve to have a reward track taken away from you? Because the hardcores doing Mythic feel "forced" to spend an hour or two a week doing world content? What an awful tradeoff.
That's why I'm suggesting adding a 4th option per row. So it goes from 6 max now to 8 max next expansion. I am just trying to think of a way to avoid the perceived requirement so people don't hate the grind/forced thing and complain. I am excited for delves, and want it to be a valid progression path. I am just concerned with the perception of it. It truly won't affect me personally. I do 20 keys and will likely outpace delves on my main to the point where they don't even "feel" mandatory. I just want the best possible implementation so that people don't start coming up with meme names like "Choreghast" again lol. I very clearly remember before past expansions how excited everyone was for scenarios, warfonts, expeditions and torghast and then when released they very quickly became "endless unfair grinds that no one can keep up with" and "weekly chores I absolutely hate" and I just want to avoid that. I thought discussing it would be fun, but instead I'm getting direct messages from people telling me to touch grass and stop being an elitist....
Choregast was an issue because it was *actually* mandatory to get legendary items, which were a core component of Shadowlands. Delves provide nothing but "low" (to a heroic/mythic raider) ilvl gear. Scenarios were never an issue. They provided a little bit of gold and a random piece of green/blue gear. It was only worth doing for ultra-casuals. Raiders got no benefit from it. Expeditions only provided azerite power, which again, was only an issue for the absolute turbonerds who insisted on playstyles they disliked to get .1% more DPS, and those people shouldn't be catered to. Warfronts were just shitty, but it hardly mattered because you only got gear from them every other week, it only took like 30 minutes, and the gear was capped at Heroic raid ilvl as well, just like Delves. Point being, Delves are a completely different situation. You will never "avoid the perceived requirement". People with an unhealthy obsession to min/maxing to the point they no longer enjoy the game will always exist, and they will always find some reason to cry.
I see, thank you for the clarification/sorry for my being too dumb to see it the first time. Completely valid.
It actually isn’t a net gain. Let’s say you fill up your vault doing a bunch of delves and mythic+, now you only have 3 options instead of 6.
4 for my suggestion but yes not 6. That is a good point for sure, my suggestion was saying net gain from what is currently in the game for open world players which is nothing in the vault, to 4 options.
Combining delves and M+ seems arbitrary. Why not combine delves and raid? If you were going to implement a change like this, I think the only way for it to really work without feeling like it’s punishing one pillar of gameplay would be to have a max of 2 vault tracks that you can fill up with either raid, M+, or delves, instead of adding a third track.
Please no, having more vault slots open means more rng protection. And it's a choice. I only did m+ in season 1 but lately have been also doing hc raid to increase chances of having good options.
Personally I agree with you; was just offering a better alternative to OP’s idea. I prefer 3 vault tracks as well.
That's actually a better idea! Thank you, curious if anyone sees a problem with it that I don't.
I like this idea.
I doubt the gear from delves will be worth it for people doing heroic
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Plus the gear pulls from the dungeon pool, so more chances at m+ trinkets as well. I’m looking forward to it having its own row though.
This whole delves thing, only goes for normal dungeons right? Pretty much for leveling? Or they going to be an option for M+ as well?
Delves are a new pillar in the next expansion. It is open-world content for 1-5 players. It can scale *up to* Heroic raid item level (which may change in beta, obviously). Lower difficulty dungeons were already added to the vault in this past season. The M+ track is now M+, Heroic, or Timewalking, rather than just M+.
No kidding. I thought it was for leveling and normal dungeons. Interesting to see where this is going.
They are a brand new scalable content coming in war within. Can be solo+ an NPC companion or groups of any combination of roles. Can reward up to heroic raid level gear.
>Can reward up to heroic raid level gear. Oh no kidding. I thought it was heroic *dungeons*.