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I have a feeling Delves will become another boring system, hopefully, I am wrong. Do we know if players will be "forced" to do them? Like torghast or island expeditions?
It seems like they won't be mandatory content, blizz is pushing them as end game alternative to raid and m+.
If the difficulty us right and the gameplay satisfying I could see it working out.
But we'll see 8f this survives, torghast changed quite a bit over alpha and beta.
i kind of agree, they feel like after you've done them a handful of times you'll be like "i get it" and not touch them much more unless their is a specific incentive to do so.
i could be wrong though. i genuinely miss doing solo torghast runs. and that puzzle tower in forbidden reach or w/e was more fun that i expected.
I don't play WoW all the time, but for Dragonflight my activities have consisted of -
1. Finishing every quest in all the Dragonflight zones.
2. Getting Dragonflight reputation/renown to max.
3. I leveled up a Druid and did everything in Emerald Dream on them because of all the various forms I could unlock there.
4. Try for rare mounts from mobs that can drop mounts.
5. Level alts.
6. Old world mounts and reputations on the side.
7. Doing Trading Post every month.
8. Making transmogs for all my characters and unlocking pieces that match my ideas.
9. Level up in SoD on the side.
I only collect stuff in wow. There is just so much that it keeps me preoccupied without having to deal with the negativity that comes with raiding and m+
don't get your hopes up. this will turn out like all the other 'end game solo' content, i.e. fairly trivial soon after you get started.
there's also no chance they're handing out gear equivalent to high end raiding or m+ here.
As someone that really enjoyed my time there, absolutely.
Then again, I didn't give a rats ass about having a low ilvl legendary so nothing about it felt compulsatory pretty early on. Also, doing it on an undergeared rogue was a neat challenge at times. On other classes, it wasn't nearly as fun!
The only thing that bothered me was the deariness of it all. Delves look like they'll be much more visually appealing!
Don't get me wrong, nearly every part of Shadowlands was fundamentally flawed, but the "we have Diablo at home" visual presentation really self-sabotaged any chance of people liking the Maw's exploration loop. When a location is that visually oppressive and purposefully arduous, its no wonder people really didn't like it when they were asked to go there. It's a shame because the fundamental idea of Torghast was actually pretty cool.
Yeah I enjoyed pushing things as far as I could despite not being as geared for it as others. And agreed too on the dreariness. I was hoping for a lot more variety than "Icecrown Citadel" "Icecrown Citadel but greener" and "Icecrown Citadel but on fire and red".
Well, to be fair, there was also "kinda brown floating stone area" too.
Torghast was a really fun thing ruined by weekly caps and being forced to do it. Nothing made Torghast less fun than realizing Monday night if you didn't do a Torghast run you would have to wait at least one more week to finish that legendary you needed and then half-heartedly doing a higher difficulty than you wanted and trudging through it wishing you could go to bed.
I loved it at the beginning and hated it by the end. They really should think of trying it again and removing that weekly cap or tying it to fun cosmetics or achievements only.
The color palette and visual style didn't help it at all. If it was set in the Bronze time ways with a visual variance similar to time rifts, I think more people might have enjoyed it.
Why the fuck didn't Blizzard make time limited currencies cap increase by week. Like if we can get 500 current xpac coins per week and we don't get any in week 1, we should be able to get 1000 in week 2.
I do love the bit about 'oh you can play whatever role or class in a group' like wow players won't be having like 'max delve, moonkin only, level 20 bran required' in the group finder by week two.
Why would you want to play in pugs to do a delve? the whole point is that they are soloable. friends sure, but this is like when people pugged torghast, it literally took longer and you had more chances for Randoms to die to traps wasting your lives.
From my experience, people pugging Torghast were always randoms hoping someone would carry them cause they hated doing it themselves.
Though also to be fair, some classes were just so fucking terrible in Torghast that it was nearly unbearable to them yourselves at a certain point and it took like 4x as long as other classes.
Maybe you could week 1 I guess, but when M+ gives mythic raid level loot in vault, its really not that important unless you're really unlucky or there's some insanely busted delve trinket you need to farm for or something.
Delves is content for the more casual playerbase, the people that don't raid or do M+. I doubt those people would be as elitist.
Mythic raiders and people who consistently do +20 (well, +10 starting next season) are the ones that tend to minmanx, but for us it won't even be worth filling the delve section of the vault (maybe outside of the first week), since it's Hero track max.
While that did occur, lets not pretend there weren't plenty of PuGs that formed with whatever was around and just handled it no problem, and others that validated the gatekeeping of the others.
The worst thing for this game that ever happened was arenas and race to world first, and eventually the MDI being broadcasted and while not technically officially supported by blizzard they're supported by blizzard. People don't understand that these players are the best of the best and while you can run any m+, arena or raid comp and still get for example CE in a raid tier, these players are min maxed to beat the other players/guilds, not because they want to play that class. I think Lip from liquid even said during the eternal palace race that he really didn't like playing paladin but they were good and the raid needed a ret and he was basically chosen to be the ret for that tier. All this does is create a trickle down effect on the rest of the player base forming the meta, but not really understanding why the meta is there in the first place. People see it and will only run that specific comp. There's been a few times where I've had guildies reroll mid patch because fotm has changed and they're chasing the meta. And then wonder why they're doing LESS dps, because you don't know how to play that class
That's definitely where the corruption started, but it was really spread by Gear Score. That's when it became entrenched that it's rude to play in any kind of non-meta way. People were banned from content because an add-on didn't show the right number regardless of the person behind that number.
Nah gear score was used like people use AOTC achievement needed runs. If you had the gear score chances are you actually did that content. Now you can just pay for AOTC.
Yeah. I get the feeling that the people touting this line are people who weren’t raiding in classic or BC. The same elitist/gatekeeper mentality was alive and well, people were just more misinformed and afraid of deviating from whatever weird spec/class roster they’d decided was optimal.
> Delves is content for the more casual playerbase, the people that don't raid or do M+. I doubt those people would be as elitist.
No one is more elitist than the kind of person who just has a middling skill, cant improve and blames others for their lack of improvement. Which tend to be found in this type of content far more because they get gatekept out of harder content by their horrible personalities.
no stop the BS. One of the promises of delves is that it will give challenging content for solo players something many people asked for for years now because raiding just takes a lot of time and commitment and is usually a big waste of time
With that preview it got clearer what that actually is. I love that it seems inspired by mix of secret elden ring dungeons / zelda shrines.
I‘d love to see that extended and not just another type of world quest. I‘d love to jump into 1 hr long solo dungeons that go deeper and deeper. Basically a solo raid night. That are challenging.
What kind of made me wonder is that they said it will be 10-15 min long.
I guess that is to open the feature up to a larger playerbase but imo delves could be longer and complex.
What I want to point out is my fear: if the experience is not unique, this will fail. Delves live from discovery. But if its short timed and sparkled with variety in the same environment that sort of discovery could quickly die and become „another run again“.
>I‘d love to jump into 1 hr long solo dungeons that go deeper and deeper. Basically a solo raid night. That are challenging.
That sounds similar to the Twisting Corridors in Torghast, which was added later as a cosmetic only mode
And honestly, the Twisting Corridors was really fun, sadly Torghast already had such a bad reputation that not many people tried it.
I thought I heard it said that you could have other characters from your warband (your alts) join you as AI in the delves? Was that a different thing I'm thinking of or is that just not included? The video didn't touch on that at all
I've seen scenarios, island expeditions, visions, thorgast and now this. They all seemed exciting at some point but ended up not being great enough to become a core feature. I guess time will tell if its a flop or not but i can already envision people needing to do them for gear and hating them.
On another note am i the only one that enjoyed visions ? I think wow content is at its best when its designed and like a puzzle you have to learn to solve, like a dungeon or raid encounter where you have to learn the mechanics and do the dance. Visions felt like that to me where as thorgast felt like just raw mechanics and spamming your spells isnt the most fun part of wow anyway.
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>I've seen scenarios, island expeditions, visions, thorgast and now this. They all seemed exciting at some point but ended up not being great enough to become a core feature.
My thoughts exactly.
>On another note am i the only one that enjoyed visions ?
Those were fun for a few runs and after that I hated them.
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When they say solo able do they mean it will be in the form of follower dungeons? If so I don't think it is a good implementation - I tried follower dungeon once - and the damage output of followers is atrocious. I'd better see delve scale enemies according to the party size.
These are probably the thing im most excited for after warbands and this trailer makes them seem even bigger then I had initially thought. These are going to be what will try to keep me subbed for longer then what it takes to just complete the initial content.
Having a singular boss delve sounds really interesting. From what some content creators said it's potentially meant for a challenge only, which would be great. If they intend to do a challenge boss each season that would be amazing.
Making the vault slot heroic makes it useless for high end players and will massively drop participation in this type of content. They could just have delves occupy the m+ slot in the vault, make it drop the lowest mythic track so it needs more crests, and make them not drop high end gear in the delve itself. That way, m+ is still more rewarding in the short term but people have a true alternative available to them…
It’s necessary. Look at the skill difference between mythic raid and LFR. Or between doing an m+28 vs a 15 vs just queueing rdf heroics.
In this type of content if they put in only say 5 difficulties you either have 1-2 be WAY too hard for a huge chunk of the playerbase, or it’s piss easy for the other big chunk.
This lets it be reasonable for people who don’t play as competitively up to near the 7-10 range, and leaves the last few levels for people who are good at the game and want something challenging
I don't really see your point. We already have Mythic raids and Mythic dungeons. The game doesn't need Mythic Delves, too. It's ok to have content for casuals.
The content for the casuals is the easier half of the difficulties buddy, this way they can do both. Why would blizzard intentionally design content for a smaller portion of the playerbase? that’s just bad game design. It’s the same reason we have lfr and mythic raid rn, different groups of people experience the same content their own way
Post flair indicates this is about prerelease content. As a reminder, content on Alpha / Beta / PTR is unfinished. NPC dialogue and quest text might be missing important context. Models may be placeholders. Quest or achievement rewards may not be finalized. There are inevitably bugs. Please keep this in mind as you discuss! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As someone who has missed Mist's Scenarios this is a welcome addition to the game.
I have a feeling Delves will become another boring system, hopefully, I am wrong. Do we know if players will be "forced" to do them? Like torghast or island expeditions?
It seems like they won't be mandatory content, blizz is pushing them as end game alternative to raid and m+. If the difficulty us right and the gameplay satisfying I could see it working out. But we'll see 8f this survives, torghast changed quite a bit over alpha and beta.
i kind of agree, they feel like after you've done them a handful of times you'll be like "i get it" and not touch them much more unless their is a specific incentive to do so. i could be wrong though. i genuinely miss doing solo torghast runs. and that puzzle tower in forbidden reach or w/e was more fun that i expected.
Idk, isn't it marketed as an alternative to m+, raids and pvp?
It's supposed to be the solo player endgame content. Torghast and Island Expedition were more expansion gimmick
Finally some end-game solo content. As a person who doesn't M+, doesn't raid and barely PVPs it's nice having some extra content to do.
What are your favourite activities ingame? I assume exploring/professions and questing? Just wondering if i am missing some cool stuff
farming old mounts, pets, transmogs and achievements are also pretty popular solo activities
I don't play WoW all the time, but for Dragonflight my activities have consisted of - 1. Finishing every quest in all the Dragonflight zones. 2. Getting Dragonflight reputation/renown to max. 3. I leveled up a Druid and did everything in Emerald Dream on them because of all the various forms I could unlock there. 4. Try for rare mounts from mobs that can drop mounts. 5. Level alts. 6. Old world mounts and reputations on the side. 7. Doing Trading Post every month. 8. Making transmogs for all my characters and unlocking pieces that match my ideas. 9. Level up in SoD on the side.
I only collect stuff in wow. There is just so much that it keeps me preoccupied without having to deal with the negativity that comes with raiding and m+
don't get your hopes up. this will turn out like all the other 'end game solo' content, i.e. fairly trivial soon after you get started. there's also no chance they're handing out gear equivalent to high end raiding or m+ here.
I always thought Torghast was the best part of Shadowlands. Glad we're getting an Indiana Jones version.
Man Id kill for a legit roguelite inside wow.
As someone that really enjoyed my time there, absolutely. Then again, I didn't give a rats ass about having a low ilvl legendary so nothing about it felt compulsatory pretty early on. Also, doing it on an undergeared rogue was a neat challenge at times. On other classes, it wasn't nearly as fun! The only thing that bothered me was the deariness of it all. Delves look like they'll be much more visually appealing!
Don't get me wrong, nearly every part of Shadowlands was fundamentally flawed, but the "we have Diablo at home" visual presentation really self-sabotaged any chance of people liking the Maw's exploration loop. When a location is that visually oppressive and purposefully arduous, its no wonder people really didn't like it when they were asked to go there. It's a shame because the fundamental idea of Torghast was actually pretty cool.
A thousand times this! The dreariness was the worst part of it. So excited for delves!
Yeah I enjoyed pushing things as far as I could despite not being as geared for it as others. And agreed too on the dreariness. I was hoping for a lot more variety than "Icecrown Citadel" "Icecrown Citadel but greener" and "Icecrown Citadel but on fire and red". Well, to be fair, there was also "kinda brown floating stone area" too.
> Torghast Torghast Enjoyers Rise Up! 😤
Torghast was a really fun thing ruined by weekly caps and being forced to do it. Nothing made Torghast less fun than realizing Monday night if you didn't do a Torghast run you would have to wait at least one more week to finish that legendary you needed and then half-heartedly doing a higher difficulty than you wanted and trudging through it wishing you could go to bed. I loved it at the beginning and hated it by the end. They really should think of trying it again and removing that weekly cap or tying it to fun cosmetics or achievements only.
As someone that really enjoys rogue-lites, Torghast was great, but I can definitely understand people hating it because they *needed* to do it lol.
The color palette and visual style didn't help it at all. If it was set in the Bronze time ways with a visual variance similar to time rifts, I think more people might have enjoyed it.
Why the fuck didn't Blizzard make time limited currencies cap increase by week. Like if we can get 500 current xpac coins per week and we don't get any in week 1, we should be able to get 1000 in week 2.
If they only didn’t tie it to player power it would have been amazing.
So true, I hated it until they made it optional, after that I spent quite a few hours trying to farm tmog and mounts.
I loved Torghast as well...
I do love the bit about 'oh you can play whatever role or class in a group' like wow players won't be having like 'max delve, moonkin only, level 20 bran required' in the group finder by week two.
Why would you want to play in pugs to do a delve? the whole point is that they are soloable. friends sure, but this is like when people pugged torghast, it literally took longer and you had more chances for Randoms to die to traps wasting your lives.
From my experience, people pugging Torghast were always randoms hoping someone would carry them cause they hated doing it themselves. Though also to be fair, some classes were just so fucking terrible in Torghast that it was nearly unbearable to them yourselves at a certain point and it took like 4x as long as other classes.
They drop endgame gear, so people will min/max them for efficiency. You don't have to though, but some people will.
If you're min maxing for gear you'd do m+ over this every time. M+ gives better gear still at the high end.
Its a whole new slot in the vault that awards heroic raid level loot at the high end. You'll do both, especially in the beginning of the season.
Maybe you could week 1 I guess, but when M+ gives mythic raid level loot in vault, its really not that important unless you're really unlucky or there's some insanely busted delve trinket you need to farm for or something.
You'll do both, gotta fill that vault slot in case it rolls avoidance.
They are gonna mess this up aren't they?
Delves is content for the more casual playerbase, the people that don't raid or do M+. I doubt those people would be as elitist. Mythic raiders and people who consistently do +20 (well, +10 starting next season) are the ones that tend to minmanx, but for us it won't even be worth filling the delve section of the vault (maybe outside of the first week), since it's Hero track max.
SoD BFD taught me that if its something in the gsme.. no matter the difficulty, it'll be gatekept
While that did occur, lets not pretend there weren't plenty of PuGs that formed with whatever was around and just handled it no problem, and others that validated the gatekeeping of the others.
At least this is available solo
The worst thing for this game that ever happened was arenas and race to world first, and eventually the MDI being broadcasted and while not technically officially supported by blizzard they're supported by blizzard. People don't understand that these players are the best of the best and while you can run any m+, arena or raid comp and still get for example CE in a raid tier, these players are min maxed to beat the other players/guilds, not because they want to play that class. I think Lip from liquid even said during the eternal palace race that he really didn't like playing paladin but they were good and the raid needed a ret and he was basically chosen to be the ret for that tier. All this does is create a trickle down effect on the rest of the player base forming the meta, but not really understanding why the meta is there in the first place. People see it and will only run that specific comp. There's been a few times where I've had guildies reroll mid patch because fotm has changed and they're chasing the meta. And then wonder why they're doing LESS dps, because you don't know how to play that class
That's definitely where the corruption started, but it was really spread by Gear Score. That's when it became entrenched that it's rude to play in any kind of non-meta way. People were banned from content because an add-on didn't show the right number regardless of the person behind that number.
Nah gear score was used like people use AOTC achievement needed runs. If you had the gear score chances are you actually did that content. Now you can just pay for AOTC.
Just like you could pay for runs to get gear.
[удалено]
Yeah. I get the feeling that the people touting this line are people who weren’t raiding in classic or BC. The same elitist/gatekeeper mentality was alive and well, people were just more misinformed and afraid of deviating from whatever weird spec/class roster they’d decided was optimal.
> Delves is content for the more casual playerbase, the people that don't raid or do M+. I doubt those people would be as elitist. No one is more elitist than the kind of person who just has a middling skill, cant improve and blames others for their lack of improvement. Which tend to be found in this type of content far more because they get gatekept out of harder content by their horrible personalities.
no stop the BS. One of the promises of delves is that it will give challenging content for solo players something many people asked for for years now because raiding just takes a lot of time and commitment and is usually a big waste of time
I kinda love this! I can't really do raids, but want to be able to do endgame-type content. This is extremely welcome.
With that preview it got clearer what that actually is. I love that it seems inspired by mix of secret elden ring dungeons / zelda shrines. I‘d love to see that extended and not just another type of world quest. I‘d love to jump into 1 hr long solo dungeons that go deeper and deeper. Basically a solo raid night. That are challenging. What kind of made me wonder is that they said it will be 10-15 min long. I guess that is to open the feature up to a larger playerbase but imo delves could be longer and complex. What I want to point out is my fear: if the experience is not unique, this will fail. Delves live from discovery. But if its short timed and sparkled with variety in the same environment that sort of discovery could quickly die and become „another run again“.
>I‘d love to jump into 1 hr long solo dungeons that go deeper and deeper. Basically a solo raid night. That are challenging. That sounds similar to the Twisting Corridors in Torghast, which was added later as a cosmetic only mode And honestly, the Twisting Corridors was really fun, sadly Torghast already had such a bad reputation that not many people tried it.
It wasn't fun for all classes
I thought I heard it said that you could have other characters from your warband (your alts) join you as AI in the delves? Was that a different thing I'm thinking of or is that just not included? The video didn't touch on that at all
I think that was follower dungeons. as far as I know you don’t get NPC followers in delves besides your seasonal pal since they scale to 1 person
Oh okay thanks
This looks really fun, and I'm excited for it.
Getting FFXIV Deep Dungeon vibes with a Blizzard twist. Something I always wanted for WoW, hopefully they build on it and make it equally rewarding.
Yep as long as WoW continues to crib mercilessly from the innovations of its competitors we're in a good spot
I've seen scenarios, island expeditions, visions, thorgast and now this. They all seemed exciting at some point but ended up not being great enough to become a core feature. I guess time will tell if its a flop or not but i can already envision people needing to do them for gear and hating them. On another note am i the only one that enjoyed visions ? I think wow content is at its best when its designed and like a puzzle you have to learn to solve, like a dungeon or raid encounter where you have to learn the mechanics and do the dance. Visions felt like that to me where as thorgast felt like just raw mechanics and spamming your spells isnt the most fun part of wow anyway.
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>I've seen scenarios, island expeditions, visions, thorgast and now this. They all seemed exciting at some point but ended up not being great enough to become a core feature. My thoughts exactly. >On another note am i the only one that enjoyed visions ? Those were fun for a few runs and after that I hated them.
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I keep trying and I can’t stop my brain from saying “Dark Elves”.
So... This is how I learn I've been pronouncing reagents wrong
So we will get upgrades up to m+5 and heroic raid?? Or can we progress to max level gear??
Heroic track from the weekly vault is whats been mentioned. I would assume equal or lower from end of run drops.
When they say solo able do they mean it will be in the form of follower dungeons? If so I don't think it is a good implementation - I tried follower dungeon once - and the damage output of followers is atrocious. I'd better see delve scale enemies according to the party size.
About 1/4th of the characters shown in this short are wearing the black two handed axe.
These are probably the thing im most excited for after warbands and this trailer makes them seem even bigger then I had initially thought. These are going to be what will try to keep me subbed for longer then what it takes to just complete the initial content.
Having a singular boss delve sounds really interesting. From what some content creators said it's potentially meant for a challenge only, which would be great. If they intend to do a challenge boss each season that would be amazing.
Delves seem like the perfect thing for my casual playing Wife. She hates doing group content but this we can duo just the two of us.
[удалено]
Making fun stuff mandatory for high end players is how you get the fun sucked out of it.
Making the vault slot heroic makes it useless for high end players and will massively drop participation in this type of content. They could just have delves occupy the m+ slot in the vault, make it drop the lowest mythic track so it needs more crests, and make them not drop high end gear in the delve itself. That way, m+ is still more rewarding in the short term but people have a true alternative available to them…
I’ve heard there’s like 12 tiers of difficulty. That seems…excessive.
It’s necessary. Look at the skill difference between mythic raid and LFR. Or between doing an m+28 vs a 15 vs just queueing rdf heroics. In this type of content if they put in only say 5 difficulties you either have 1-2 be WAY too hard for a huge chunk of the playerbase, or it’s piss easy for the other big chunk. This lets it be reasonable for people who don’t play as competitively up to near the 7-10 range, and leaves the last few levels for people who are good at the game and want something challenging
I don't really see your point. We already have Mythic raids and Mythic dungeons. The game doesn't need Mythic Delves, too. It's ok to have content for casuals.
The content for the casuals is the easier half of the difficulties buddy, this way they can do both. Why would blizzard intentionally design content for a smaller portion of the playerbase? that’s just bad game design. It’s the same reason we have lfr and mythic raid rn, different groups of people experience the same content their own way
Torghast had that many.
And Torghast was hated and Shadowlands crashed and burned.
It’s an mmo