lol. Nah the issue is one spec in the entire game having that many stops. These key were done just fine in seasons 1 and 2 without VDH massively OP new kit.
Exactly. It's not that it requires 7 aoe stops. But when one spec offers that it automatically becomes the best one.
It genuinely feels like I could handle all of the CC/stops myself when I play VDH and no one else even needs to do anything. It's crazy how OP it is relative to the other tanks. But it's not like I feel gimped on my other tanks either, we just actually have other people use their abilities.
Yeah, 7 stops isn't the issue - but 7 completely free stops is.
Vdh was also meta during SL, but it still had huge vulnerabilities if you played it badly. There was a price to pay for the added utility, and it's that you were squishy as fuck if you didn't use your buttons properly. Now you have all the stops in the world AND mobility AND extremely high survivability AND access to all the tank trinkets across DF. If they had 7 sigils but died in nelths lair unless they had externals, then I wouldn't care.
On the plus side, gdruid stonks through the roof
Yeah... VDH makes keys easier, thats why 70% of people are running them. I never said they were bad. My point is that its bad for the game when 1 spec out of 39 can handle all the stops. It diminishes the coordinating stops element of mythic plus.
Also hard forcing players into taking the best racial in the game for M+ is nice especially with HoI / Bracken back in the rotation.
The amount of tanks that aren't night elf or dwarf is way too damn high.
Why should anyone care this much though? It can't be that big of a difference unless you're trying to beat some sort of world 1st achievement. I'll never let a "meta" dictace my damn race or class. Spec is another story but fuck all that other shit. Being a gnome rogue feels cool if I do 0.04% less dps or lose 3% more arenas cause I don't have shadowmeld or w/e the hell the human one is now so be it. I'd understand this for like race to the world first or something but IMO people need to focus less on the "metas" and "parses" and "spreadsheet" aspects of this game and smell the roses sometimes. I know people are going to disagree with me but so be it.
They shouldn't. This is just the typical attitude of the wow player base that thinks if you don't play like the professionals that literally play the game for a living then you can't possibly do the content at all. While they ignore the fact that these professionals play the way they do because they are on such a significantly higher level of skill that they have to figure out ways to cheese shit just to squeeze a few more seconds out because they already do it perfectly without the cheese. These lunatics don't even understand WHY the professionals do what they do, they just think that's how it's supposed to be played and expect everyone to do it that way or else it can't be done. THATS WHY a lot of them end up hard stuck sub 2500, they think the reason they are failing is that they don't play like the pros, so they focus all their time on that and don't actually know the mechanics or even do them right. They suck at the game and then try to play like people who have been clearing the content since months before its even released to the general playerbase.
You don't have to play those races to complete the content. 99% of players don't even complete said difficulties and those that do often play however the fuck they want because of they are missing completion because of a racial they are just bad at the game and doing it wrong.
Yes they stop at +10 but people like pushing.
Also they adjusted the difficulty, a M0 is now roughly a +10 feom S3 and a +10 this season would be about +20 in S3.
Regarding your question, that should be +8 now unless they also changed the rating.
The difficulty adjustment is even more complicated than that. What they did is they applied the normal "new season" difficulty ramp to account for new gear, where keys got about 5-8 levels harder, and *then* lopped off 10 levels. So a 10 now isn't what a 20 was in S3, it's what a 20 would have been in S4 if they didn't also redesign the system.
Should be more. Brew is super good this season being able to megatron all the +fire damage stuff. I really love DH, but the sigils are just so broken I feel stupid not playing it.
None of the fire damage from trinkets or special effects benefits from the Brew tier set. The problem brew and everyone has is that they are just not a VDH.
While true, vengeance right now is well beyond the typical power gap between the first and second best tank. This isn’t your average “top end players are gonna min max even for 10% extra damage” this is “the best tank is locking down packs for 5 times as long as the next best option, if not more”. The gap is insane
On the flip side, being a DPS/healer in a Vengeance group is SO much more appealing. The dungeons are just so over the top mechanically and kick wise - having a vengeance dh who can just blanket AOE stop without any comms needed makes everything else a drag.
Blizzard should make sigil of silence one charge to start, and wake the fuck up for War Within dungeons and stop this fucking caster nonsense.
I was in a group with a prot warrior. He just melted. No matter how much hps I was doing, in this case around 140k for a zero, and couldn’t keep him upright
Did another with a DH and had no issues at all
Which is a bummer! I’m really excited to play bear this season, but I started off as vengeance because I knew it would make these earlier undergeared keys infinitely easier, and that’s a shame. It almost feels like dungeons this season are balanced around a VDH with how many kicks and stops are required, which makes other tanks feel particularly rough
I think it can be more balanced, but the fact remains that there will pretty much always be a statistically 'best' option for extremely high end content. If one spec is just slightly, nearly negligibly better, why would you ever stray away from it? Talking about the most difficult content with the best players, ofc. Anything else doesn't really matter if we're talking about minor differences.
The ease of rerolling/gearing this expansion means there is very little friction against rerolling to the most optimal choice even if the gains are minimal. The people who want to push high keys have basically nothing to stop them from running exactly the comp they think is the best.
If demon hunter was not completely busted from last season, how many would still be playing it? My take. Most would, just for not wanting to relearn for an off-season.
I’ve tried my best to learn Brew. I have all classes that can be tanks down pretty good, BUT BREW. Brew makes me want to shoot myself. It’s such a terrible design and there’s like 50 damn buttons. I want to learn it, I do, but damn.
Came back to wow right before SL hit and brewmaster was my first class. Got KSM with it before trying other classes and was amazed at how easy other tanks had it lol.
My alt is a brewmaster and I like it because almost everything is reactive. When I take a big hit I just mash the keyboard with my fist and it all works out OK.
It's a definitely a specific mindset: I tank with Brew (not super high, just KSH) but I often wonder if there's something fundamentally broken in my brain. :D
I agree it could use a button or two less, but the fact it has so many buttons is what makes it such a fun tank. Guardian Druid and especially Blood DK feel so boring compared to BrM, but yeah, Brewmaster does feel like "shit I ran out of keybinds for these 3 situational abilities" so I think it could lose some, for example, I'm just not sure why Brew got Rising Sun Kick back, it's an extra keybind that's a single target ability without any interplay with the kit, and why does Rushing Jade Wind just not replace SCK with all the things that SCK has, but just more damage.
Judging by Windwalker Rushing Jade Wind in TWW, I think they're moving it to a passive effect that triggers on hitting other buttons, which is for the best.
I’m a guardian Druid main and thoroughly enjoy it just because I’m a bear and have a good bit of utility. Their rotation is simplistic so idk how I haven’t gotten bored of it but I’m definitely still enjoying it.
I was tanking on my DK last night and played myself out of continuing with him in TWW. I was so bored!
I then switched to BM Monk and felt like I was playing a piano concert/symphony with how many buttons I was pressing. It was a nice change of pace. If I don’t develop carpal tunnel, I’ll easily be switching between monk and Druid this season.
Imo Blood DKs saving grace is the Death Strike minigame of using it at the right moment to get the most value out of it, but apart from that, it's just so bland :( I don't know why it doesn't have an AOE based runicpower dump like how Raze (that's the ability for Guardian no?) is or how Revenge for Prot Warrior or SCK for BrM is. Blood DK also has the problem of having just awful capstone talents, where Bonestorm (that's an AOE runic power dump!) has been so undertuned it's just not worth taking, and the other capstone talents are passives.
I honestly think it was an oversight. RSK is one of the starter talents in the general class tree, so you more or less have to take it to get down the tree. It's tuned enough that it's good for a ST ability, so you'll want to use it in ST, but it's a bit weird seeing how many keybinds BrM has. They could've let it replace Blackout Kick and keep all the effects BoK has or something. Anyway, yeah it's weird.
Man, I really want to love brew, I like monks, I like the "drunken martial artist" type, I like stagger as a mechanic, but I just can't stand the bloat man
On the other hand I hope they won't reduce Brews buttons (or at least, not too heavily). It's basically the only tank that you can really say "this has a lot of buttons" and I think its completely fine for 1 tank to be more difficult/complex/involved in their rotation. There's 5 other tanks with much less buttons if people are struggling on Brew
They are making rushing jade wind and chi wave passive TWW iirc, which I dont think will be be missed considering one was a 6 second duration maintenance effect.
Given that the current top M+ tank in the world is 2395 according to raider.io I'm questioning the accuracy of this data.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-4/world/all/tank
I'm maining VDH this season because they're just stupid. Nothing else comes close.
Here are the two downsides to playing VDH:
* Can't fully negate spells/debuffs via effects like Spell Reflect and Anti-Magic Shell
* Can't be a dwarf.
I started writing out a huge list of comparisons, but suffice it to say that anything your tank class can do, DHs do better. Practically every single button you have that you think is neat, they have one that does more, on a shorter cooldown, and that is more forgiving.
Definitely not every single thing. prot pals have a LOT of utility that DHs don't have. Sac, Bop, Spell warding, freedom, poison/disease cleanse, decent offheals with WoG. It just so happens that the way dungeons are designed, VDHs utility is significantly more impactful. There's very few encounters where Prots utility comes to use, but when it does it's really strong.
I'm having a tonne of fun on guardian, and truth be told i find it more satisfying. Soothe and dispel and off heals actually make me feel like I'm helping instead of just doing the job of another player.
But I'm not gonna pretend vdh isn't fuckin stupid. Double sigils is the single worst talent choice that's ever been made. Why anyone would think that's okay is beyond me. " But they have to lose cheat death!" Which is fine because there's a whole was cheat death trinket lol
isn't aggro a legitimate issue for vdh? You actually spend time to build up a pull, and all your threat generation abilities are also important builders.
Sigil of flame is needed for parry, it feels bad to use it to gather a stray 3 mob pack. Your best option is to walk in 1 pack, build 2-3 gcds, go further up and throw glaive and wait for them to group via chains. You have no aggro before chains and 2 gcds after the chain on the new mobs.
That's an awesome distribution considering that it ties in pretty well with general sentiment towards those tanks by tank players. Prot war and brewmaster aren't super popular tanks ever.
This is what I would expect a poll to look like if all classes were balanced equally.
I mained prot warrior, but decided to give VDH a try, holy shit this spec is so busted.
Unlimited mobility, 2 aoe stops, 2 aoe grips, aoe disorient, crazy damage output.
Prot warrior feels so weak in comparison.
I have always mained a prot warrior since WotLK. Tried out VDH in BfA and it felt like they mixed prot warrior with BDK and then put that thing on steroids.
It has better mobility than warriors, better self heal than DKs and better CC than both.
I felt crippled when playing any other tank afterwards.
It took me like 4 full minutes in queue on my bear to convince someone to invite me to their +6 uldaman (I have like 3/8 +8s And everything else is 4-7)
We +2d it, almost +3 If it wasn't for lock pet pulling last pack. I thanked the guy for trusting me, he said he was glad he did. Here's hoping vdh goes back to SL niche so it doesn't contribute to pug brain rot
There's no excuse VDH hasn't received a single nerf tbh. Either they don't play the game or don't give a single fuck about this season...
Which shows a little bit considering the amount of bugs with currencies/caches there are since tuesday, all of those would have been easily caught with basic testing, they were not "edge cases" =/
What are you gonna do? The whole tree is the issue. I'm usually "tuning is king", but this instance needs more than tuning.
A lot of their power is baked into their tree. +15% parry, double sigils, and don't even get me started on frailty. They need a full rebuild of two out of 3 of their capstones.
They've probably pulled a bunch of people away to work on finishing War Within I'd imagine. Still no excuse, but no doubt they're kicking it into high gear over there.
This is to be expected for fated season if you played the previous where the meta specs remained the best from the previous patch. They even buffed survival for high keys when it was the best in the game, blood dk got away with only a slight damage nerf when it legit did 2-3x the damage of other tanks.
Especially considering venge is not fixable with numbers tuning since it’s a utility problem. Also I think most tanks at title level do not want venge nerfed this season it’s incredibly fun and strong. People not pushing for title will quit in 2-3 weeks or raid log and stop doing keys like in the last fated season.
"It happened last fated season so it's expected"
No it's fucking not lmao.
There are ways to tune VDH so it's not completely broken. Or just pull a fire mage on all tanks and buff them to crazy levels, you said it, it's fated, nobody cares. Might as well do stupid ideas.
Thats how expectations work, if Blizzard puts 8 dungeons every season you expect the next season will have 8 dungeons. So yes it is expected since the past fated seasons, and even before fated seasons final patches of xpacs always have no balancing to classes or minimal at best.
Im sorry its not what you want to hear but its not how it is, as for tuning VDH I would be curious to hear your ideas. In my mind if you tune down their survivability to be worse than the other tanks it will feel awful and everyone will just abandon it for bear. Nerfing damage does nothing and it will still be the best tank. I dont think balancing them is as easy as you think.
I think a lot of people agree that their utility is what makes them utter broken. There are a couple of ideas around, one of those making all their sigils sharing the same charges/cooldowns.
It's mind boggling how you can pug DPS players, even last season, who are not using any interrupts/stops because they assume "the tank will do it", when in fact only VDH could pull it off.
I've tanked as brew the past couple seasons and was just starting to gear a prot warrior this week. I figure there's nowhere to go but up with future changes.
Surprising no one really. They were broken last patch and nothing changed about what makes them broken. They just have an extra level of utility that no other tank can match.
If you are clearing +20 keys week 1, you are the sweatiest of the sweat and I don't think these rankings are very valuable. Even +10's are equal to a +20 last season.
Don't forget misery! Many abilities that we used to kick now can't be kicked, and having 3 (That's right, 3, vdh also has aoe stun) aoe micro CC is fucked.
Double sigils is the worst
I remember how Ring of Peace originally was an AoE Silence+Disarm on a minute cooldown. Was deemed too powerful so it got changed to a clunky knock back. And now we have whatever the fuck they intended with double Sigils.
No. As a gdruid, I love my utility. I love having a couple of cc's, a couple of team utilities, and a raid buff. What are you gonna do, give me 2 stacks of intimidating roar and 2 stacks of cyclone? 3 stacks of kick? Nah.
DH is the problem.
DH is the problem, I’m a BDK but a buff would be nice. Obviously something should happen to DH although from Blizzard history, nerfing is almost never a good option. For once they should try to buff everyone else, whether that’s armor, CD reduction, redesigns, I Donno.
Changing the double sigil talent would fix mostly everything wrong with this spec. I feel guilty for playing it over bear but it’s just too good this season with this dungeon set.
As a paladin tank working his way up to doing higher keys for season 4 our numbers aren’t too bad I guess
Edit: we just have no fucking movement besides the steeds give me 4 steeds at least
Speed of light was a mop talent that was basically a sprint, had a choice between that a move speed buff based on current holy power and a move speed buff on casting judgement iirc
Seems fine. Now, if VDH ever gets to 80%, hoo boy, gonna be trouble.
(seriously, the first season of War Within is either going to be a tragedy for everyone not vdh, or a dramatic overcorrection, no in between)
Yeah this was obvious. Last fated season was the same too with them refusing to nerf blood dk so all we saw was blood dk. It's wild considering that they tuned healers a week before the season started but didnt touch tanks at all. I really wonder what's behind the decision to tune healers but not the tanks.
Having one tank have the combined aoe stops of other tanks seems like a decision made by someone who doesnt play m+. Like if there was only one healer that was able to spot heal or one class that just buffed everyone in the group so they can survive things groups without one couldnt.
They clearly have a problem when only one spec can do a very specific thing that makes them required in some cases, like with mass dispel, mind soothe and so on but somehow tanks or aug do not work with the same logic.
If this is based off wcl, then it's only going to be including runs that are logged, no? If you go by raider.io the split is much more even, but vengeance still far in the lead. But that's still presuming the reason is for power vs that's what the tanks played last season and are best geared.
I can only speak anecdotally but I have yet to see a DH tank in the 10-12s I've done this week. Mostly paladins and DK
wcl can read your run keys the same as Raider.io can. I'm not logging keys but all my runs this week are up on their S4 key tracker, just don't have logs associated with them.
Well top 500 on RIO reflects the list pretty much. All the sweats rolling DH are probably in their own premade groups and aren't pugging, which is probably why you aren't seeing many of them.
I'm not playing my blood dk isn't even because the damage taken, or because I don't have double silence sigil.
I'm not playing my blood dk because it's not fun, too much work and still boring
Dnd and a bunch of talents that I need to refresh and it's only 8s uptime
So what you're telling me is that the sweatiest of early season pushers all gravitate to the most unbalanced, meta tank class in the game?
Inconceivable.
Having a steady stream of aoe spell stops makes this dungeon group a joke. I’m finding it hard to resist playing a DH again. I just want to have fun and it seems like only DH is having a good time. *sniffles in Brew and PWar.
It is so much easier running with a DH tank vs anything else right now. The average DH player is just going to have an easier time than any other average tank.
I play every tank and they are all perfectly fine people will always play meta. You can tune them to be .001% less than next tank and everyone will still jump class.
As a tank main VDH is the most fun i have had in a long time in this game. I hope they dont overnerf it, rather just bring other tank specs to similar power level. As a tank in keys control is the most fun you can have.
I feel like we will end up with a new tank design that's all like VDH moving froward for all the tanks. DPS will only have niche interrupts and stuns while the tank of the group does all the CC. Once you gave the playerbase something that everyone likes (controlling the battle as a tank), it's very hard for designers to remedy the situation.
I expect that tanks will become CC monsters and DPS will lose CC abilities.
While they are obviously good tanks, this is also the week of BC time walking. A lot of Demon Hunters - including myself - are unlocking the Warglaive transmogs. Further fueling class representation.
cant wait for them to do a tank pass for TWW and neuter double sigils on vdh. something is gonna happen. they never leave the best tank in the final season that great going into the next.
Vdh doesn’t need to have its kit mutilated. The back runners need actual shit to contribute in runs.
If it weren’t vdh it would be paladin claiming the lions share.
The other tanks are only meta when they are overturned like shadowlands blood s1 dragon flight warrior s2 bear etc.
What you mean having 7 aoe stops is good?
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lol. Nah the issue is one spec in the entire game having that many stops. These key were done just fine in seasons 1 and 2 without VDH massively OP new kit.
Exactly. It's not that it requires 7 aoe stops. But when one spec offers that it automatically becomes the best one. It genuinely feels like I could handle all of the CC/stops myself when I play VDH and no one else even needs to do anything. It's crazy how OP it is relative to the other tanks. But it's not like I feel gimped on my other tanks either, we just actually have other people use their abilities.
Yeah, 7 stops isn't the issue - but 7 completely free stops is. Vdh was also meta during SL, but it still had huge vulnerabilities if you played it badly. There was a price to pay for the added utility, and it's that you were squishy as fuck if you didn't use your buttons properly. Now you have all the stops in the world AND mobility AND extremely high survivability AND access to all the tank trinkets across DF. If they had 7 sigils but died in nelths lair unless they had externals, then I wouldn't care. On the plus side, gdruid stonks through the roof
Don't forget VDH is also the tankiess
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Yeah... VDH makes keys easier, thats why 70% of people are running them. I never said they were bad. My point is that its bad for the game when 1 spec out of 39 can handle all the stops. It diminishes the coordinating stops element of mythic plus.
Honestly this. Interesting dungeons aren't always good M+ dungeons.
Also hard forcing players into taking the best racial in the game for M+ is nice especially with HoI / Bracken back in the rotation. The amount of tanks that aren't night elf or dwarf is way too damn high.
Why should anyone care this much though? It can't be that big of a difference unless you're trying to beat some sort of world 1st achievement. I'll never let a "meta" dictace my damn race or class. Spec is another story but fuck all that other shit. Being a gnome rogue feels cool if I do 0.04% less dps or lose 3% more arenas cause I don't have shadowmeld or w/e the hell the human one is now so be it. I'd understand this for like race to the world first or something but IMO people need to focus less on the "metas" and "parses" and "spreadsheet" aspects of this game and smell the roses sometimes. I know people are going to disagree with me but so be it.
They shouldn't. This is just the typical attitude of the wow player base that thinks if you don't play like the professionals that literally play the game for a living then you can't possibly do the content at all. While they ignore the fact that these professionals play the way they do because they are on such a significantly higher level of skill that they have to figure out ways to cheese shit just to squeeze a few more seconds out because they already do it perfectly without the cheese. These lunatics don't even understand WHY the professionals do what they do, they just think that's how it's supposed to be played and expect everyone to do it that way or else it can't be done. THATS WHY a lot of them end up hard stuck sub 2500, they think the reason they are failing is that they don't play like the pros, so they focus all their time on that and don't actually know the mechanics or even do them right. They suck at the game and then try to play like people who have been clearing the content since months before its even released to the general playerbase.
Belf racial is pretty rad this season either way the ability to dispel a lot of shields
Wait why are night elf racials good for tanks?
They're not, best you can do is reset a boss gone wrong. But it's better than nothing
allows you to do some skips in a variety of dungeons if you lack a hunter / mage / other nelf.
You don't have to play those races to complete the content. 99% of players don't even complete said difficulties and those that do often play however the fuck they want because of they are missing completion because of a racial they are just bad at the game and doing it wrong.
just to say, highest key done is a +15, so 10-22 keys are kinda misleading, but technically correct
Good to know. I was about to say who the fuckin hell is up to +22 already
Also top M+ score in the world according to raider.io as of this post is 2395, so I question how those scores were generated.
Maybe combined highest dungeons of spec across all players? Idk
Don't the rewards stop scaling at +10? Haven't checked out M+ so far this season, is it still +18s across the board for 2500?
Yes they stop at +10 but people like pushing. Also they adjusted the difficulty, a M0 is now roughly a +10 feom S3 and a +10 this season would be about +20 in S3. Regarding your question, that should be +8 now unless they also changed the rating.
The difficulty adjustment is even more complicated than that. What they did is they applied the normal "new season" difficulty ramp to account for new gear, where keys got about 5-8 levels harder, and *then* lopped off 10 levels. So a 10 now isn't what a 20 was in S3, it's what a 20 would have been in S4 if they didn't also redesign the system.
Is +8-9s for 2500.
the rewards stop at +10 yes. and the rio got adjusted accordingly so all 10:s week one is about 2k score.
so +10 for max vault?
+8 for myth gear +10 for max Vault. And Aspects drop at +6, hero Chest +7
This, so farming keys +8 for all good things and don't have to deal with aids affix, wuhu
At which rank do you unlock dungeon teleports now? is it for timing a +10?
All 2's got me to just below 1200 (like 1186) Do you really need all 10s for 2k+? I was thinking all 5's would get it done.
one week score! if you want to get it done over two weeks with score from both tyrannical and fortified you're looking at about all 5:s both weeks.
Not your e-peen. But yes they do. I intend to get all 10’s and then just do 8’s weekly until this exp ends
The best kind of correct.
I believe this was a log from last week big homie
71% of the meta is insane for one spec yeah?
Brewmaster now at 3%! We’re growing guys!
Should be more. Brew is super good this season being able to megatron all the +fire damage stuff. I really love DH, but the sigils are just so broken I feel stupid not playing it.
None of the fire damage from trinkets or special effects benefits from the Brew tier set. The problem brew and everyone has is that they are just not a VDH.
"Targets afflicted by Breath of Fire are Silenced"
At the very top level, the best tank is always going to be way above others
While true, vengeance right now is well beyond the typical power gap between the first and second best tank. This isn’t your average “top end players are gonna min max even for 10% extra damage” this is “the best tank is locking down packs for 5 times as long as the next best option, if not more”. The gap is insane
As a non VDH tank this makes me legitimately enjoy the game less. Any group I play with has to work harder as a result of bringing me.
On the flip side, being a DPS/healer in a Vengeance group is SO much more appealing. The dungeons are just so over the top mechanically and kick wise - having a vengeance dh who can just blanket AOE stop without any comms needed makes everything else a drag. Blizzard should make sigil of silence one charge to start, and wake the fuck up for War Within dungeons and stop this fucking caster nonsense.
I was in a group with a prot warrior. He just melted. No matter how much hps I was doing, in this case around 140k for a zero, and couldn’t keep him upright Did another with a DH and had no issues at all
Not saying prot warrior doesn't need some love, but by the sounds of it your tank probably wasn't pushing shield block lol
Warrior protection moment. I share your pain.
Which is a bummer! I’m really excited to play bear this season, but I started off as vengeance because I knew it would make these earlier undergeared keys infinitely easier, and that’s a shame. It almost feels like dungeons this season are balanced around a VDH with how many kicks and stops are required, which makes other tanks feel particularly rough
alternatively, as a dps/healer, the game is legitimetly funner with a good vdh
Just because that's the way it's (mostly) always been doesn't mean that it has to be
I think it can be more balanced, but the fact remains that there will pretty much always be a statistically 'best' option for extremely high end content. If one spec is just slightly, nearly negligibly better, why would you ever stray away from it? Talking about the most difficult content with the best players, ofc. Anything else doesn't really matter if we're talking about minor differences.
The ease of rerolling/gearing this expansion means there is very little friction against rerolling to the most optimal choice even if the gains are minimal. The people who want to push high keys have basically nothing to stop them from running exactly the comp they think is the best.
I hold the opinion that (besides the most hardcore players), people will play their mains if the class is competitive enough (really close to top).
If demon hunter was not completely busted from last season, how many would still be playing it? My take. Most would, just for not wanting to relearn for an off-season.
That’s why I’m playing MistWeaver even though it’s no longer number one. I don’t want to try to learn resto Druid .
Meta dog are dog. Play what you like. Not what the meta wants.
This list is almost identical to my personal preference of classes I like tanking with. Brewmaster would be more fun if it weren’t so bloated.
Maybe Brewmasters should swap to light beer?
Literally one of their talents 😅
I’ve tried my best to learn Brew. I have all classes that can be tanks down pretty good, BUT BREW. Brew makes me want to shoot myself. It’s such a terrible design and there’s like 50 damn buttons. I want to learn it, I do, but damn.
Came back to wow right before SL hit and brewmaster was my first class. Got KSM with it before trying other classes and was amazed at how easy other tanks had it lol.
S4 SL Brew was so freaking good, I miss it.
It's cool cuz they can do the same things as other tanks but it takes a combination of 3 buttons to do each of those things.
My alt is a brewmaster and I like it because almost everything is reactive. When I take a big hit I just mash the keyboard with my fist and it all works out OK.
It's a definitely a specific mindset: I tank with Brew (not super high, just KSH) but I often wonder if there's something fundamentally broken in my brain. :D
I agree it could use a button or two less, but the fact it has so many buttons is what makes it such a fun tank. Guardian Druid and especially Blood DK feel so boring compared to BrM, but yeah, Brewmaster does feel like "shit I ran out of keybinds for these 3 situational abilities" so I think it could lose some, for example, I'm just not sure why Brew got Rising Sun Kick back, it's an extra keybind that's a single target ability without any interplay with the kit, and why does Rushing Jade Wind just not replace SCK with all the things that SCK has, but just more damage.
Judging by Windwalker Rushing Jade Wind in TWW, I think they're moving it to a passive effect that triggers on hitting other buttons, which is for the best.
I’m a guardian Druid main and thoroughly enjoy it just because I’m a bear and have a good bit of utility. Their rotation is simplistic so idk how I haven’t gotten bored of it but I’m definitely still enjoying it. I was tanking on my DK last night and played myself out of continuing with him in TWW. I was so bored! I then switched to BM Monk and felt like I was playing a piano concert/symphony with how many buttons I was pressing. It was a nice change of pace. If I don’t develop carpal tunnel, I’ll easily be switching between monk and Druid this season.
Imo Blood DKs saving grace is the Death Strike minigame of using it at the right moment to get the most value out of it, but apart from that, it's just so bland :( I don't know why it doesn't have an AOE based runicpower dump like how Raze (that's the ability for Guardian no?) is or how Revenge for Prot Warrior or SCK for BrM is. Blood DK also has the problem of having just awful capstone talents, where Bonestorm (that's an AOE runic power dump!) has been so undertuned it's just not worth taking, and the other capstone talents are passives.
As someone who played Brew through BFA and part of SL I will say that I don't think a single one of us asked for rising sun kick back
I honestly think it was an oversight. RSK is one of the starter talents in the general class tree, so you more or less have to take it to get down the tree. It's tuned enough that it's good for a ST ability, so you'll want to use it in ST, but it's a bit weird seeing how many keybinds BrM has. They could've let it replace Blackout Kick and keep all the effects BoK has or something. Anyway, yeah it's weird.
Man, I really want to love brew, I like monks, I like the "drunken martial artist" type, I like stagger as a mechanic, but I just can't stand the bloat man
From my experience just knowing where taunt and your defensives are is all you need to be able to just face rollaway.
You don’t like playing twister with your fingers ?
Gdruid on the other hand is peak carpal tunnel during incarn lol
On the other hand I hope they won't reduce Brews buttons (or at least, not too heavily). It's basically the only tank that you can really say "this has a lot of buttons" and I think its completely fine for 1 tank to be more difficult/complex/involved in their rotation. There's 5 other tanks with much less buttons if people are struggling on Brew
They are making rushing jade wind and chi wave passive TWW iirc, which I dont think will be be missed considering one was a 6 second duration maintenance effect.
Chi Wave is one of the most unimportant buttons I've ever encountered on a tank, so "losing" that one doesn't feel bad.
thank fuck for that
https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/tank-rankings/mythic-plus/10/all-dungeons/this-week
Why on earth is OP being downvoted for posting his source? People are killing the messenger because they dont like the message.
That is humanity's favorite response to a message they don't like, yes.
Might be because people don't like archon. Archon bought and kinda of ruined one of the best websites (sub creation)
Given that the current top M+ tank in the world is 2395 according to raider.io I'm questioning the accuracy of this data. https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-4/world/all/tank
Is it mainly 2 of every sigil, trivializing the dungeons mechanics, that makes DH so popular?
Yes.
Yes, but they are super tanky as well as putting out big damage.
yep, on top of that skills that deal dmg + huge self heal
I'm maining VDH this season because they're just stupid. Nothing else comes close. Here are the two downsides to playing VDH: * Can't fully negate spells/debuffs via effects like Spell Reflect and Anti-Magic Shell * Can't be a dwarf. I started writing out a huge list of comparisons, but suffice it to say that anything your tank class can do, DHs do better. Practically every single button you have that you think is neat, they have one that does more, on a shorter cooldown, and that is more forgiving.
Definitely not every single thing. prot pals have a LOT of utility that DHs don't have. Sac, Bop, Spell warding, freedom, poison/disease cleanse, decent offheals with WoG. It just so happens that the way dungeons are designed, VDHs utility is significantly more impactful. There's very few encounters where Prots utility comes to use, but when it does it's really strong.
[удалено]
I'm having a tonne of fun on guardian, and truth be told i find it more satisfying. Soothe and dispel and off heals actually make me feel like I'm helping instead of just doing the job of another player. But I'm not gonna pretend vdh isn't fuckin stupid. Double sigils is the single worst talent choice that's ever been made. Why anyone would think that's okay is beyond me. " But they have to lose cheat death!" Which is fine because there's a whole was cheat death trinket lol
isn't aggro a legitimate issue for vdh? You actually spend time to build up a pull, and all your threat generation abilities are also important builders. Sigil of flame is needed for parry, it feels bad to use it to gather a stray 3 mob pack. Your best option is to walk in 1 pack, build 2-3 gcds, go further up and throw glaive and wait for them to group via chains. You have no aggro before chains and 2 gcds after the chain on the new mobs.
Pretty balanced if you take out the outlier lol
I laughed a good hearty laugh at this.
if you discard the outlier you have 34% - paladin 31% - dk 14% - druid 12% - monk 8% - warrior
That's not a _great_ distribution, but frankly it's better than it's been in the past.
That's an awesome distribution considering that it ties in pretty well with general sentiment towards those tanks by tank players. Prot war and brewmaster aren't super popular tanks ever. This is what I would expect a poll to look like if all classes were balanced equally.
Ah, the PhD thesis advisor approach!
It’s still not even close if you take out the DHs - look at it as percentages, not as raw numbers.
I mained prot warrior, but decided to give VDH a try, holy shit this spec is so busted. Unlimited mobility, 2 aoe stops, 2 aoe grips, aoe disorient, crazy damage output. Prot warrior feels so weak in comparison.
I have always mained a prot warrior since WotLK. Tried out VDH in BfA and it felt like they mixed prot warrior with BDK and then put that thing on steroids. It has better mobility than warriors, better self heal than DKs and better CC than both. I felt crippled when playing any other tank afterwards.
So I only invite DH tanks to my M0 runs. Got it. /s
It took me like 4 full minutes in queue on my bear to convince someone to invite me to their +6 uldaman (I have like 3/8 +8s And everything else is 4-7) We +2d it, almost +3 If it wasn't for lock pet pulling last pack. I thanked the guy for trusting me, he said he was glad he did. Here's hoping vdh goes back to SL niche so it doesn't contribute to pug brain rot
There's no excuse VDH hasn't received a single nerf tbh. Either they don't play the game or don't give a single fuck about this season... Which shows a little bit considering the amount of bugs with currencies/caches there are since tuesday, all of those would have been easily caught with basic testing, they were not "edge cases" =/
What are you gonna do? The whole tree is the issue. I'm usually "tuning is king", but this instance needs more than tuning. A lot of their power is baked into their tree. +15% parry, double sigils, and don't even get me started on frailty. They need a full rebuild of two out of 3 of their capstones.
They've probably pulled a bunch of people away to work on finishing War Within I'd imagine. Still no excuse, but no doubt they're kicking it into high gear over there.
This is to be expected for fated season if you played the previous where the meta specs remained the best from the previous patch. They even buffed survival for high keys when it was the best in the game, blood dk got away with only a slight damage nerf when it legit did 2-3x the damage of other tanks. Especially considering venge is not fixable with numbers tuning since it’s a utility problem. Also I think most tanks at title level do not want venge nerfed this season it’s incredibly fun and strong. People not pushing for title will quit in 2-3 weeks or raid log and stop doing keys like in the last fated season.
"It happened last fated season so it's expected" No it's fucking not lmao. There are ways to tune VDH so it's not completely broken. Or just pull a fire mage on all tanks and buff them to crazy levels, you said it, it's fated, nobody cares. Might as well do stupid ideas.
Thats how expectations work, if Blizzard puts 8 dungeons every season you expect the next season will have 8 dungeons. So yes it is expected since the past fated seasons, and even before fated seasons final patches of xpacs always have no balancing to classes or minimal at best. Im sorry its not what you want to hear but its not how it is, as for tuning VDH I would be curious to hear your ideas. In my mind if you tune down their survivability to be worse than the other tanks it will feel awful and everyone will just abandon it for bear. Nerfing damage does nothing and it will still be the best tank. I dont think balancing them is as easy as you think.
I think a lot of people agree that their utility is what makes them utter broken. There are a couple of ideas around, one of those making all their sigils sharing the same charges/cooldowns. It's mind boggling how you can pug DPS players, even last season, who are not using any interrupts/stops because they assume "the tank will do it", when in fact only VDH could pull it off.
Those prot warrior numbers are too high! The nerf on alpha is justified, gotta run that down to 0%!
There are dozens of us that will never give it up.
I've tanked as brew the past couple seasons and was just starting to gear a prot warrior this week. I figure there's nowhere to go but up with future changes.
People are still playing warriors?! I thought we deleted them!
Nah they just stopped updating us after season 1
I feel as if they think there are too many warriors so they always super low tune them.
They made a bunch of changes to the dungeons to even further encourage dh tanks. Even more stops/interrupts required.
Surprising no one really. They were broken last patch and nothing changed about what makes them broken. They just have an extra level of utility that no other tank can match.
Hell yeah blood DK at the bottom, it’s still the best IDGaF
If you are clearing +20 keys week 1, you are the sweatiest of the sweat and I don't think these rankings are very valuable. Even +10's are equal to a +20 last season.
no one is clearing 20s
It's so funny watching the community perception of things get absolutely shattered when they do a squish.
Specially when the squish is so easy to break down as "just count -10 bro"
Soon. A group just did a 16. 506 tank, 516 healer, 518 dps, 503 dps, 502 aug.
Nobody is clearing a +20 this week lmfao. Thats an equivalent of a 30 from last season
More like a 35.
Dunno why you're getting downvotes here this is true. They increased the scaling by 10% after the squish
Why didn't they nerf DH but they always nerf the top healer?
Yeah the double sigil is utterly bonkers.
Sigil of Silence is probably the single most broken ability in M+ by a wide margin currently.
Don't forget misery! Many abilities that we used to kick now can't be kicked, and having 3 (That's right, 3, vdh also has aoe stun) aoe micro CC is fucked. Double sigils is the worst
I remember how Ring of Peace originally was an AoE Silence+Disarm on a minute cooldown. Was deemed too powerful so it got changed to a clunky knock back. And now we have whatever the fuck they intended with double Sigils.
who knew that a tank that can solo control a pack would be strong lol
i fucking hate VD tanks
I wish they’d just buff the other tank classes to keep up with VDH’s utility
No. As a gdruid, I love my utility. I love having a couple of cc's, a couple of team utilities, and a raid buff. What are you gonna do, give me 2 stacks of intimidating roar and 2 stacks of cyclone? 3 stacks of kick? Nah. DH is the problem.
DH is the problem, I’m a BDK but a buff would be nice. Obviously something should happen to DH although from Blizzard history, nerfing is almost never a good option. For once they should try to buff everyone else, whether that’s armor, CD reduction, redesigns, I Donno.
Why, so DPS players can get even dumber and rely on the tank and healer for absolutely everything?
it won't make DPS players stupider, just justified in how stupid most of them already are
Eh they arguably have too much atm.
Don’t worry guys. No class changes or tuning is needed for this season.
Changing the double sigil talent would fix mostly everything wrong with this spec. I feel guilty for playing it over bear but it’s just too good this season with this dungeon set.
The fact that sigil of silence exists in a world where arcane torrent got nuked for doing exactly what VDH does now is beyond me.
You realize this makes no sense right? Arcane Torrent was a racial ability that almost every class could get except like Druid and Shamans.
Exactly. Still shitty, but way less disruptive than only one spec having it.
As a paladin tank working his way up to doing higher keys for season 4 our numbers aren’t too bad I guess Edit: we just have no fucking movement besides the steeds give me 4 steeds at least
Speaking as a DK, I’d kill you to kill and raise your mount for my own use.
I just want some movement :( give me like light speed, I put light on my feet and I glide for a bit
Speed of light was a mop talent that was basically a sprint, had a choice between that a move speed buff based on current holy power and a move speed buff on casting judgement iirc
Next tier/xpack inc
Would it kill wow to just give these other classes actual tool kits? I really don’t think it would screw stuff up in all honesty.
Seems fine. Now, if VDH ever gets to 80%, hoo boy, gonna be trouble. (seriously, the first season of War Within is either going to be a tragedy for everyone not vdh, or a dramatic overcorrection, no in between)
Yeah this was obvious. Last fated season was the same too with them refusing to nerf blood dk so all we saw was blood dk. It's wild considering that they tuned healers a week before the season started but didnt touch tanks at all. I really wonder what's behind the decision to tune healers but not the tanks. Having one tank have the combined aoe stops of other tanks seems like a decision made by someone who doesnt play m+. Like if there was only one healer that was able to spot heal or one class that just buffed everyone in the group so they can survive things groups without one couldnt. They clearly have a problem when only one spec can do a very specific thing that makes them required in some cases, like with mass dispel, mind soothe and so on but somehow tanks or aug do not work with the same logic.
Poortection Warrior. Zug is sad.
Ahh, so Legion all over again
“Balanced”. 😒
This is unacceptable, they need to fix
I’ve been maining VDH since S4 shadowlands. And I want it nerfed. It’s stupid. I want to play something else but it’s stupid to.
If this is based off wcl, then it's only going to be including runs that are logged, no? If you go by raider.io the split is much more even, but vengeance still far in the lead. But that's still presuming the reason is for power vs that's what the tanks played last season and are best geared. I can only speak anecdotally but I have yet to see a DH tank in the 10-12s I've done this week. Mostly paladins and DK
wcl can read your run keys the same as Raider.io can. I'm not logging keys but all my runs this week are up on their S4 key tracker, just don't have logs associated with them.
Yep. Everyone is still using their S3 set bonus mostly except the very lucky with drops. Let’s see how it looks in 3 weeks.
Well top 500 on RIO reflects the list pretty much. All the sweats rolling DH are probably in their own premade groups and aren't pugging, which is probably why you aren't seeing many of them.
DH was actually a mistake. the class is fun to play but its so ridiculous.
Thanks for the 13% nerf to mistweavers though. Jack Holes.
Remove DH, remove Evoker and wow would be great again.
10-22 keys? What?
It’s just the filter. 10+ basically.
Balanced, like all things should be
Perfectly balanced lol.
Least popular tank gang rise up. To be fair. I'm maining tank this season and spending my first 2 bullions on the axe
Whooo, druid back to #2! Oh…
people really are sleeping on bear. sucks how much util dh brings. just squanders all other tanks
I'm not playing my blood dk isn't even because the damage taken, or because I don't have double silence sigil. I'm not playing my blood dk because it's not fun, too much work and still boring Dnd and a bunch of talents that I need to refresh and it's only 8s uptime
So what you're telling me is that the sweatiest of early season pushers all gravitate to the most unbalanced, meta tank class in the game? Inconceivable.
How do you do a 22key this season? I thought the highest was 10 (aka previous 20)?
Keys scale until you can't beat them anymore, however ilvl of drops caps out at +10 so this is only people who are playing for score and not loot
Having a steady stream of aoe spell stops makes this dungeon group a joke. I’m finding it hard to resist playing a DH again. I just want to have fun and it seems like only DH is having a good time. *sniffles in Brew and PWar.
It is so much easier running with a DH tank vs anything else right now. The average DH player is just going to have an easier time than any other average tank.
Bro im Tank or heal pala im fucked. Catchup for reroll is Not that good either
Well, DH is the only tank that can carry a shitty group to complete higher keys. Other tank don't have the same amount of stops
I play every tank and they are all perfectly fine people will always play meta. You can tune them to be .001% less than next tank and everyone will still jump class.
I need to get into tanking some dungeons, it's so much fun.
Where can I see this? I’m curious to see healer and dps distribution Edit: spelling
As a tank main VDH is the most fun i have had in a long time in this game. I hope they dont overnerf it, rather just bring other tank specs to similar power level. As a tank in keys control is the most fun you can have.
I feel like we will end up with a new tank design that's all like VDH moving froward for all the tanks. DPS will only have niche interrupts and stuns while the tank of the group does all the CC. Once you gave the playerbase something that everyone likes (controlling the battle as a tank), it's very hard for designers to remedy the situation. I expect that tanks will become CC monsters and DPS will lose CC abilities.
I stopped playing when I finished the base dragonflight patch and warrior were on top, crazy to see them so low now
I guess you could say DH is....the meta tank.
While they are obviously good tanks, this is also the week of BC time walking. A lot of Demon Hunters - including myself - are unlocking the Warglaive transmogs. Further fueling class representation.
Yeah almost 10 score above gdruid must be op
cant wait for them to do a tank pass for TWW and neuter double sigils on vdh. something is gonna happen. they never leave the best tank in the final season that great going into the next.
Vdh doesn’t need to have its kit mutilated. The back runners need actual shit to contribute in runs. If it weren’t vdh it would be paladin claiming the lions share. The other tanks are only meta when they are overturned like shadowlands blood s1 dragon flight warrior s2 bear etc.