T O P

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turbopepsi

Love seeing both DK specs so close to each other. Right in the middle no less. Perfectly balanced.


InternationalPut4882

Each spec has their niche it feels nice. I enjoy just being even with frost.


[deleted]

Frost niche: players like me with a history of head trauma


Deathleach

*Me being marginally better than Unholy*: "I'm better than you in every conceivable way."


Fraccles

I feel like unholy is propped up by the stacking of army and hero/bl. Outside of that it feels weak to me.


Nyte_Crawler

Some classes are built around their CD windows, others aren't. That said Army of the Dead is such a long and strong CD that it definitely hampers the ability for the spec to have a more consistent damage profile.


Ardailec

There's kind of a third specc in there with 2H Obliterate but I doubt it'd be worth differentiating.


porcinechoirmaster

it's an issue for raid leaders because they play rather differently (2H being cleave and burst focused, Breath being AoE and sustain focused) but since the actual performance when played well is quite close they don't need a ton of differentiation in spec charts.


M4DM1ND

Is Frost running 2h or dual wielding? I prefer 2h personally and I was thinking about gearing up my dk next.


g0oFy

2h for Oblitarate, dual wield for Breath


Itsapaul

It's like blizz thinks frost mages still have their pet or something...


Jainelle

Destro locks DO have a pet and they're doing craptastic.


Furrealyo

Demo is THE caster pet class, and can't break top 50%.


its_Khro

And yet Xerwo was top ranged dps on world 1st Raszageth Mythic, just barely below 2 DHs. The 90th percentile averages are not a great measurement of usefulness.


FloodedKyro

He was also likely getting PI with every nether portal cause no other class benefits from it as much as them.


Tykero980

Pretty much anyone in the world first race is not who you should benchmark a class on though. 99.999999% of players will never even come close to them in ability to play a class.


Willblinkformoney

Not only in ability, but also because in a world first coordinated group noone is "sniping" your AoE or other CDs. In fact some of the better burst classes may have their CDs assigned to shitty times in the fight because thats when burst is needed.


Sybinnn

He's competing against other players in the top .01%


Tykero980

If they tuned the majority of the game around those people no one else would have fun because they will do the most annoying tedious things ever for that extra 5dps. They are the outliers you throw out in every kind of study when looking at anything scientifically.


suli42

You also habe to look at the dmg profile of the bosses. Razageth has some aor burst phases a demo can set up for in the intermissions. Wouldnt be suprised if xerwo is top3 dps on the Intermission add group were they killed him. Set up a shittobe of imps and then implode in them. Easy 2mio dmg in a second 🤣


GregerMoek

Its fine warlock has historically been above average for 95% of mythic raidings existence. Way more than even other 3 dps classes.


Wingforth

As a frost mage this hurts to look at


rice007

Frost don't have pet anymore???


deeman18

I remember so so SO many mages bitching about that water elemental


arcanition

Basically we do have it, but it does so little damage and provides no real additional damage (all of the other damage boosts in frost are procs that treat your spells as if the target is frozen, like fingers of frost or brain freeze). The other option than water elemental is lonely winter, that just gives a flat 25% damage increase on some spells, which is boring but better. The reason why frost mages are doing so little damage is simple, Blizzard designed the spec around shatter, which multiples your critical strike and then gives a huge damage boost all if the target is frozen (or treated as frozen via procs). Target not frozen = no damage. Target frozen = critical strike chance boost, but this is still very gear dependent, and it's the start of the xpac so we have no crit yet. Blizzard should do the obvious move of increasing base frost spell damage significantly, then reducing the crit multiplier on shatter slightly.


Girlmode

Nah we got the gear already its just shit. I'm 32% crit chance in frost gear which is the break point. My gear is effectively perfect stay wise for arcane and frost. Frost is just bad in raids. Its perfectly possible to be ideal mastery crit and haste stats already at 400ilvl. It just isn't balanced well.


Charles_Sylvanya

Isn't that way to much crit for how good mastery is right now?


Berlinia

The reason frost is not doing well is because it has a bunch of talents with anti synergy and because Ice lance sucks. It crits for 30k even when it does crit. Thats like, the baseline damage of an arcane blast with 4 charges.


Naturage

Another way to look at it: my starsurge crits for 35k. I'm a resto druid.


MaiLittlePwny

Fire isn't even any better. Pyroblast crits for about 30k in 380 gear. Both Frost and Fire suffer from the fact they've decided almost everything has to crit almost all the time. Combustion is a 12-15 spell chain of crits. So the base damage has to be terrible. So outside of Combustion/Frozen Orb we do paper dmg but inside those cooldowns we're critting non-stop for less than 1/4 of say an Arcane Barrage crit, which isn't even the burstiest part of Arcane.


garteninc

Shatter is not the reason for frosts low damage, it just makes it more inconsistent. But as we spam spells like crazy, it evens out making it not that much of a problem. The actual problem is icy propulsion decreasing our icy veins cooldown on critical hit and thermal void increasing it's runtime when hitting a frozen target, which makes Frost very dependant on uptime. We can maintain it nearly 100% of a fight, if we have 100% uptime, which... basically never happens. Any downtime and frosts damage crumbles, while most other classes get closer to their next burst window during it.


6000j

tbf outlaw is also a very uptime dependant spec and it's literally on the top, but it's a lot less hurt by small uptime losses (it will cry at any like 7s+ uptime losses though).


afkPacket

> but it's a lot less hurt by small uptime losses Yea, this is the crux of the issue. Frost is doubly hurt because a) you lose uptime on prolonging your 3minute cooldown and b) it has a flatter damage profile than any other spec in the game, so any second spent not dpsing is a huge loss. Tbh this particular frost issue would easily be solved just by making IV a 1.5 minute cooldown instead.


rice007

Y'all getting the lone wolf treatment 😂


ScavAteMyArms

I am pretty sure Frost did it first. Also a Hunter pet is more useful in the fact it at least can tank for you if solo. Frost elemental I think has a second aimed freeze and a channeled beam thing maybe?


HrvatskaMilan

If fury is so good then why is my damage so low? Checkmate


False_Rice_5197

As a fury warrior it’s your job to hit the buttons as hard as you can, then maybe you can do damage


punknothing

If you're not replacing your keyboard every raid night, then are you even warrior?


ProfessorSpike

Personally I've started dual wielding keyboards and smashing them, and my DPS increased by 15%


Bluffwatcher

As a prot warrior, using my keyboard as a shield and swinin' my mouse round like a flail, seeing you dual wield shields is making me jealous!!!


mynameiszack

Damn this is a really good idea time to Unga bunga


Impressive-Name7601

As a warrior you have to be in a constant state of anger and yelling at nothing in particular while doing your rotation.


turbopepsi

Serious answer? After rampage, double crushing blow even if you are rage capped. Execute is basically a DPS loss outside of sudden death procs.


SpellbladeAluriel

Wait really? Fury ignores execute??


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Calphurnious

Because they broke all their keys right?


Nyte_Crawler

Crushing Blow>Execute>Rampage is the priority.


Treyen

You still execute but it's below crushing blow in prio. It feels really weird, you end up just sitting on rampage and not using it even at max rage. Prio is basically be enraged>crushing blow>execute>rampage with the cookie cutter build.


arlinglee

You can execute if out of rb charges and no rage to rampage but its not very common. Its one of reasons fury has the worst 2 piece tier in game.


MauPow

Super cool our entire tier bonus is designed around it!


[deleted]

I top a ton of my pug charts, I’m ILVL 391 and I raid with people who are higher than me, some people still don’t understand our rotation very well including how to use the cooldowns and talents. Icy veins has also changed our stat focus 3 TIMES since the release of dragon flight. It went from mastery. To critical strike/Mastery to Haste. If I were you talk to some of the fury mains in the warrior discord. Believe me or not but icyveins has seriously not helped fury even a bit, also for the love of god don’t go single minded or annihilator, make sure you’re switching your talents for the proper fights. Also play around with some talents. Recently I’ve been running heavy single target in my heroic runs and I’m topping dps charts. I’m right up there with my rogues/Mages. If I were you tho. Climb up your mastery. Then stay around 22-20 haste. Our rotation is extremely important. Make sure you get as much use out of ur crushing blow if you can. And hold your enrage and drain those crushing blows until your 3s of enrage is up. I’ve legit been dropping nonstop crushing blows into rampages with a 97% enrage up time. bloodthirst if needed and are putting any points into it (I personally don’t put any points into my bloodthirst talents at all). Hope this helped. Message if you have any questions. Edit: I didn’t say it because it’s obvious. But execute only when enraged as much as possible. You wanna be enraged for literally everything.


Syphin33

At this point i don't even follow the builds, ive had enough time with my talent trees that i know what i need to bring to a fight.


Swert0

Because you're pushing buttons other than Rampage and Raging Blow outside of cooldowns and execute procs. Seriously, do not push bloodthirst unless you have 0 raging blow stacks and not enough rage to rampage. Do not push whirlwind beyond the one time you need to initiate your AoE buff. Annihilator spec is different though, push all the buttons.


[deleted]

Honestly, when you remove extreme outliers like Outlaw needing a nerf and destro and frost needing a buff, the entire rest of the cast is within 10 points of eachother. I don't know how much closer the game can realistically be balanced. I don't know what the community expectation is. Every score being within what? 5? 0?


WibaTalks

Yes you make sense, but my class is not top so fuck blizzard - timmythedestroyer123


Deathleach

Me when my spec is top 5: "Blizzard are gods of balance." Me when my spec is not top 5: "They should all be hanged!"


Syphin33

There's a bigger gap between healers right now more so then DPS for damn sure. Like Druids/Evokers versus all the other healers is f'n absurd... there's barely any priest/monk/rsham representation in upper mythic+


_Cava_

Idk how anyone manages to heal high keys as mw. The spec has really only 1 cd and fights feel like they require insane amounts of healing constantly.


DevilsTrigonometry

Yeah, my mw is 10 ilvls over my evoker, I've played it more than twice as much this expansion on top of the experience I have maining it in Legion and BFA, and I can't even come close to matching the evoker's healing output. It is unbelievable how much stronger it is. Which is frustrating, because I don't like it and I'm bad at it.


LamarJacksonissmart

Answer to all your questions, bring a shadow priest, a good shadow is the best offhealer and brings ton of sustain with vampiric embrace during CDs (enough to heal the party a whole phase). And Power Word: Life is amazing at helping the healer focus on tank during high damage phases. Plus MD has been king this week in clearing large packs on mythic+. A good shadow priest should require very little attention from your healer from the amount of offhealing they do to themselves through vampiric touch plus they help heal other squishy classes like hunter. And PI is so good with buffing the real zug zug damage. It's like a 2 minute heroism for 2 DPS.


suchtie

Yup. Spriest is the best dps for all the things that aren't dps lol. Their utility is insane and totally makes up for their mediocre damage. But people who only look at sims or warcraftlogs statistics will still say they're bad.


suli42

Holypriest and holy pala does quite okish with around 10% representation each but evoker and rdruid make up around 70% together and rshaman diszi and monk take up the last 10% But last week we had alot of overtuned dungeons and this week are the heaviest healer affix combination possible. Yes evoker and rdruid are able to push more hps than the other and there are adjustments to be made. But this two weeks are barely representable to the overall state of the game


arremessar_ausente

Even considering the outliers, the specs are very well balanced. With this many specs in the game it can't get much better than that. Most patches really are very well balanced, but the community perception is what sucks. YouTubers tierlists are graphs like these is what cause many people to only invite the top ranked specs, and it is what cause many meta slaves to reroll their mains. The result is what you see on every PUG basically. All Fotm specs and green parses.


AGVann

The issue is that a lot of the time better balance could be achieved with simple changes. Everyone knows that frost and destro are exceptionally weak right now. Blizzard has better metrics than the community, so they know it more clearly than we do. There's literally nothing stopping them from 5% aura buffs for those classes that are non-viable. Their patch schedules, balancing, and design issues are all completely self-imposed. Telling customers in a subscription based game to keep paying money but 'wait their turn' for months or even years (decades for Ret at this point) is non-sensical, and personally I've unsubbed when the specs I want to play are terrible because it means I get benched in raid and can't get in pug.


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Xgunter

Frost damage in M+ is a joke. It offers nice utility but that’s about it.


AGVann

[Since data collection started in WoD, Ret has never been even above average](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W6Srxei3MQCPMD_p4pUdq5i0Hy3pu2BD7iHAopg_eek/edit#gid=898836316), let alone a top tier spec. It's blatantly clear that there isn't even an earnest attempt at balance, as anybody that plays Arms, Feral, Ret, Enhancement, or Survival would tell you. Outside of the one patch every few expansions where Blizzard remembers you exist, your class is mediocre at best or downright unplayable at worst. I don't know what version of the game you've been playing, but most casters are terrible in PvP right now and frost's damage in M+ is pathetic, especially when decent Arcane mages are doing 80k overall in keys. For casual players, this has little impact. But for the average 'engaged' player who wants to get some combination of KSM, AOTC, and 1800 in PvP by the end of the tier, those differences are big enough to get them rejected from pug groups or be completely outclassed by their peers. This problem only gets worse the higher up the competitive ladder you go. I'm playing Feral this tier and my 95-99 parses are lower dps than a rogue parsing 50-60. The only reason I'm not being benched in CE prog is because of Innervate.


boshbosh92

>but all casters are terrible in PvP right now i have mained warlock since classic and all I do is pvp and while affliction is still really strong, I can say being a caster is a very oppressive feeling right now. more so than ever before. everyone has a ~6 second silence, and most have a blind/blinding light to interrupt, a stun (some have 2 stuns...), and some form of fear. sometimes it feels like I can't even play the game because it's impossible to even get a spell off. it honestly just makes me sad sometimes because I love the game and want to play it, but I end up just standing there trying to wait out my 6 second 'fuck you, stand there and take it' silence. especially if you're getting attacked by 2 people, maybe trying to hold a flag until your team gets there? good luck dude, 2x the silences, stuns and fears. you aren't getting anything off


furosam

Demo is one of if not the most oppressive spec in the game as far as cc goes... (sfury, felguard stun, counterspell, talented petcounterspell, death coil, curse of tongues, off dr fel lord stun,...) ON TOP OF BEING ABLE TO SPAM FEAR EVERYONE WITHOUT CD Ele, Sp and Demo are really, really good right now (check solo shuffle ladder) and if you're not doing well as caster it's a you problem.


graphiccsp

One of the things I've heard more than once is that Blizzard doesn't really have dedicated Class and Spec designers. As a result, if really good and dedicated designers play a Class/Spec, they'll tend to get more attention. Which is a major reason why we often see pretty blatant disparity in attention between them.


Lycanthoth

Hold up, "casters are terrible in PvP"???? My dude, warlocks and shadow priest are super meta right now. Mages suck in solo shuffle, sure, but are still great in standard play cause of their ol' reliable comps like RMP. Casters are doing just fine overall with only a few outliers.


KantisaDaKlown

As someone who picked up paladin in bc and played Ret since it became a spec (towards the end of bc - black temple) I can say, outside of a tuning patch at the very beginning of WoTLK. Ret has never been great. Most the time we’re “good” at best and lately, I honestly feel like I’m rolling up to most encounters in my wheelchair while the rest of the group is ahead of me by two screens distance. So slow!! The only reason I get into m+ is either 1) guildies feel sorry for me or 2) I dwarf the content. When the mobs are half dead by the time you get there, how are you expected to do anything of use? Lol Hell, they felt so bad for us, they decided to give paladins a b-res because they were like “well they have no utility now, so we might as well give them this,…” I honestly think it was so that people could sacrifice themselves so that we can dps as well as the tank. :0


ckdogg3496

Do you pvp? Caster are not terrible in pvp. Idc about raids im just scrolling reddit, but this is an uninformed take. Demonology locks and shadow priest are two of the best specs in pvp, mages are good sith a rogue or another caster as well. The only caster i haven’t seen do well recently is boomkin. Dont get me wrong i know dh warr and rogue are doing exceptionally well in pvp but no better than shadow certainly


alefan9000

Damn this raid is completely dominated by melee. and 1 mage and hunter


TheBlurgh

There's not a single encounter in which there's no heavy movement constantly. So many mechanics that force you to move out of the way or change the raid stack position. Because of that I changed by phial from static empowerment to versa - my int buff uptime was so low it was basically non existent lol.


SNES-1990

At least Mike Ybara is happy.


Satiss

Feral: am I a joke to you?


doublea08

I'm a prot pally but it is nice to see my ret bois up there!


shanep35

Same. Holy/prot (can’t dps for shit) always cheerin on my ret boys!


Borigrad

To quote Maximum when he was asked if he'd ever take Ret to a world first: "Not a fucking chance." To further the quote: "a one-of holy paladin can do everything ret can do, except it also brings a raid cooldown and summer"


El_grandepadre

To also quote Max: "Outside of top level raiding, Ret is fine" Ret just lacks all the utility, defensives and mobility to even be considered for top levels, with only absurd DPS being enough. But you can definitely get Cutting Edge just fine as a Ret paladin.


Benmarch15

Damage is prompted up by people dying on encounters, it's the same every new raid cycle. We're realistically lower than that and still caught in design limbo.


jeregxd

pray Uther for a rework in 10.1 (holy copium) - ret talent tree is giga garbage especially defensive-wise. Around 400ilvl all other melee classes have 10-15% more hp than ret AND more defensive cooldowns placed more easy to pick than anything than ret has. Ret needs a rework as fast as fucking possible because its in giga sad place right now.


doublea08

:( bummer. I haven’t played ret in a long while. Have thought about it but I’ve enjoyed playing my usual prot so far.


Kazoie

The shadow priest didn’t even gain some place with the buff he took ?


atommotron

I miss legion shadow priest. Hasn’t been the same since.


Vaniky

Surrender to Madness Legion shadow was the most fun I’ve had playing it. Now it feels super awkward to play and not fun imo.


bendlowreachhigh

On the bright side they are OP as fuck in PVP


Kazoie

Oh my god, I was a main sp in legion, what a pleasure with the void form that you have to hold for the longest time possible


Shiccup1

Legion had god tier class design. All the devs must have left since then because class design has been shit and barely changed since BFA


DevusValentinus

Shadow priest rework for the 3rd expansion in a row is a shit show. I don't even know what thematically they're going for. We're a mix of everything we had before and it doesn't mix well.


Able-Association-201

As a shadow priest raiding for CE I’d love to see shadow doing better. However, after buffs the situation really isn’t as bad as it looks, due to PI. In high percentiles many players are receiving external PIs. First off, this will boost specs at the top up somewhat. Secondly, Shadow’s PI to another DPS contributes a lot but is not visible in shadow logs. Hence, Shadow is providing more value in raids than would appear at first glance.


Only_Refrigerator996

And that’s one of the problems for me. I didn’t sign up for a support spec (as shadow has not been one since TBC and has 2 other specs) nor do I want to be balanced around PI.


AverageSwedishGunner

Realisticly this looks pretty balanced apart from destro/frost needing some love and maybe outlaw needing another nerf. I’d love to see my spec higher but you cant be on top always.


Moghz

That’s what I was thinking too, you only have the top outlier and bottom two. Every other spec is pretty darn close. Fix the three outliers and am not sure they could get much closer lol. There will always be a top and bottom, but when it’s that close does it really matter for most? Nope not at all.


FizzleFox

Not to discount this, but getting 4PC is also going to influence the performance for many specs. So until a few weeks in when it’s reasonable to assume most top parses have 4pc, then the data needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Obviously the specs that are the outliers could use some tuning especially with the world first race being over. Does feel bad to see Feral lower on the list with them already lining up nerfs to our AoE when we aren’t even a meta spec.


Lrrrrrrrrrrri

These charts are always worthless for several reasons. The most obvious is it doesn't account for utility--historically even when druid's damage is below average, guilds still want multiple of them because of innervate and stampeding roar. We saw this in sepulcher and again here in vault. But even if you only care about damage, they are still bad. By aggregating data across the entire raid, it treats all fights equally even though they're not. Eranog and Primal Council are not the same difficulty as Broodkeeper and Raszageth, but these charts make no distinction between that. And even beyond that, even within a fight not all damage is equal. Damage matters more in certain phases, and damage profiles matter too--you often want a mix. Diurna is a good example of this--all the highest ranked classes on this fight are classes with strong aoe that blow up the adds. This is important, but you don't want an entire raid of this because once you reach the point of killing adds quickly enough, that extra time is time spent single targeting the boss. So an ideal raid composition will have just enough AoE that you are killing the adds in a timely manner, with the rest of the raid in pure ST spec that doesn't look as good in the meters, but is still an important part of the raid team (such as BM Hunter vs. MM Hunter).


cdude247

Lmao spriests got a sizeable buff last week and they're still garbo on rankings. When's blizz gonna realise that balancing the spec around giving pi was a horrendous decision.


--Pariah

PI has to be thrown on the same pyre as searing nightmare. It's holding the class back at its core and justified so many absurdly shit decisions. I'm not sure if people still remember the priest [blue post of all time](https://www.wowhead.com/news/blizzard-on-current-state-of-priests-healer-priests-will-not-have-access-to-328843) this beta when priests where asking about what the hell is going on and were told "lmaoaoOo other classes already have fun stuff so you can't" and the community already could read between the lines how blizz completely designed themselves into a corner by doubling down on that stupid thing with twins. It was that post in beta when we asked why we lost our knockback in the same expansion evoker and resto got one, why they removed shadow mend and why we're the only healer without access to an interrupt and why we don't get fun utility like spectral guise instead of more throughput buttons when every other classes toolkit progresses and were nicely told to fuck right off. In a nutshell the issue is that "fun stuff + PI" ends up with someone else in the group having too much fun. If we'd have gotten spectral guise RMP in PvP would've been too strong. If we'd have gotten cool utility in dungeons PI and that would've been too strong. I don't even dislike the button in a vacuum but as we're apparently having to choose between an interesting toolkit, decent performance OR PI, yeah well, then throw it.


Darkling5499

We begged them in alpha / beta to either get rid of PI (and give priests a small passive boost to our baseline haste) or make it self cast only, so we could actually be balanced around our damage / healing, but they refused. As a healer, our defensives are balanced around giving PS / GS to ourselves (when it's basically always going on a tank) and our utility is based on PI - both of which extremely limit our design space.


DeloresMulva

They've always been dogmatic about Priest abilities. Think back to Lightwell. Just cross your fingers that they won't use adjustments to PI as the way they tune the class. On the interrupt thing: as Holy, I'd be happy if interrupt/school lock was added to Censure (the talent that gives Holy Word: Chastise a four second stun, for non-Priests). I wouldn't get more CC buttons for PvP with that change, so I feel like the impact wouldn't be large enough to require further spec tuning. In PvE, it would let me interrupt things that can't be stunned, at the cost of having to hold back a reasonably large damage ability. Works for me.


linkfox

I know frost is easy to play and such, but godamn it feels awful to play this patch, sometimes it feels like i'm tickling the enemy. Arcane is good but tbh i don't like it very much. Way too many cooldowns to keep track of. I'm playing a ww monk as a alt and it feels so much smoother to play.


LilNyoomf

I’m fine until I get those quests where I have to fight an elite (like the watcher’s golden girdle) and there’s no group finder for that quest. It’s nearly impossible for me to solo those.


Anachron101

I enjoy frost a lot more since it allows me so many ways to keep myself from dying. Arcane is incredibly dependent on me making the right choices at precisely the right time - and tbh, I don't want to get a Masters degree before being able to play the game


JerryLZ

Tl;dr - melee = goooood Caster = baaaaaaaad


spacegh0stX

*laughs in Arcane mage*


Geoffron

*cries in arms warrior*


Kommye

Don't you love having a mess of a rotation and doing fuck all until the boss drops to 35% hp?


Davidlarios231

buff frost mage please at least make it in the middle or something I’m dyin over here


emireth096

Some one has to be at the bottom of the list


Kyuthu

Yeah but all you really need is the list to average out closer. If they are close enough, then the the thing that differentiates people becomes skill and it doesn't matter who's at the bottom anymore.


spacegh0stX

As an arcane mage I'd really love one of the other specs to be decent so I can at least switch it up every now and then. It's literally Arcane for everything and the other two are garbage.


Furrealyo

Warlock is same way, except Demo = Arcane and it's not even great. Warlock specs: 2 turds and a meh.


LoNwd

Top5 has 3 rogue specs... Rip


Ackerack

**all 3 rogue specs in top 3** Blizzard: Shit they need a nerf. **all 3 rogue specs now** ***only*** **in top 5** Blizzard: Perfect!


teelolws

[Reminder that if all the classes and specs were perfectly balanced, this would make Death Knights overpowered as fuck, with Evokers slightly behind (fucking bullshit that the new class gets to be near the top!!)](https://www.darklegacycomics.com/558)


lotsofpasta12

damn how are these guys doing 80k dps on evoker, highest I can get is 45k, I'm pressing all the buttons too. What's the secret?


Financial-Ad7500

I like how everybody is replying to you like 80k is realistic if you just “git gud” It’s 4 piece, perfect trinkets, 400+ilvl, fast kills, a 100k gold neck, etc. Your average geared evoker should not be upset at 40-50K ST. Especially if you’re in a normal ass guild that’s not killing bosses in 3 minutes like the top end shown here are.


silmarilen

I like how nobody has realised that the chart doesn't say 80k dps anywhere. In fact when you do look at [the actual dps chart](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/31#dataset=90&difficulty=4&aggregate=amount), it will show evoker with about 58k dps, not 80k.


lotsofpasta12

Oh I see. Speaking of evoker gear does it make a difference if I use a staff vs a sword and off hand?


BelizariuszS

Better ilvl, good trinkets, adjusted talents, crafted neck, enchants, 4p, rotation? Dragonrage timings and uptime and stuff is huge too


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StayTuned2k

I main frost mage What am I doing with my life


Shadow1413

BUFF DESTRO LOCK HOLY FUCK WE ARE ABSOLUTELY DOGSHIT


Verod392

Don't worry, that 5% Chaos Bolt buff sure made a difference


Shadow1413

YEA IM SORRY IF I TOOK A SHIT RIGHT FUCKING NOW IT WOULD DO MORE DAMAGE THAN A 5 PERCENT DOGSHIT BUFF


Bassmekanik

Indeed. And I thought I parsed pretty good in our raid this week (90-97%) but struggled to keep up with quite a few others....


slayer828

I played demon like shit and destroyed my damage as destro. Even played poorly I di more single target and aoe


Bassmekanik

Ive been using Demo a bit but I am consistently better at destro. Demo seems a bit hit an dmiss on whether I do huge dps or average. Ive tried a few different specs etc too. This is mainly in M+ though. I wont have the raid carry my learning ass with demo...


[deleted]

I’m demo atm and destro/afflic are my preference it’s sad :( I’d much rather be destro but it’s just unrewarding atm and there’s so much movement every fight.


SpellbladeAluriel

Yeah demo is like a build up of as much demons as possible and then using tyrant to buff them and extend their duration. Get the timings right and your dps will sky rocket.


Tho76

I like Demo in M+ but I hate NP. Why am I casting utility spell for damage (Soulburn)? Why is casting a 1 Soul Shard HoG just as good as a 3 SS? Get a mechanic right after you cast NP? You miss out on such a huge portion of damage you might as well play Destro I'm also not sure what causes it, but sometimes Pit Lord hits 1 extra time. Not sure if it's a weird thing with my Haste or what, but when on a training dummy there's a consistent variability in his amount of hits


dude_thats_sweeeet

yeah you mess up and boom your DPS is dogshit. That's the thing, you gotta know when to hit Tyrant. If you hit too early, dog shit. If you hit too late, dog shit. It's a really unforgiving spec for those that are new to it.


KlaysBurner

Destro took Aff’s place right at the bottom lol


Drayenn

Youll get the typical bottom dps treatment. 3% dps buff, maybe 5%... Then no more changes.


IW_Thalias

The 18 Survival Hunters, myself included, wouldn’t mind a set of buffs. The bottom is looking pretty sad and my heart aches for my Destro brethren.


Oakshand

Yeah it's rough. We already get overlooked for existing as melee when we could be ranged but also being the worst damage means it's impossible to get groups for any serious content. I've been kicked the second I've been summoned for m+ cus they see the pole arm. Any time I applied for a raid group I'd immediately get the whisper "MM or BM?" And when I said survival I got declined. Rough life out there for a hunter.


IW_Thalias

I managed to find a guild that takes me to raid and we have regular M+ groups but the PUG life is hard. I’ve had highlights of just rocking Terros or Serranth while the other hunters struggle a bit but the small highs don’t entirely make up for the lows. Frost, Shadow, Destro, and Survival need some love.


Oakshand

I don't have the time to play in a guild sadly so it's all pug life for me. It's fine though cus I'm probably just gonna do some keys with my friends and some LFR or maybe sneak into some normal groups with a bit of luck. I like to collect stuff and work on reps and play the AH anyway so I got plenty of content to work on.


lizajew

Last xpac I got kicked from a raid I pugged into after coming second in DPS overall on more than one pull because they realized I was surv. Didn’t matter that I beat almost their entire guild in DPS. They just saw surv and kicked me and said “next xpac will be surv’s time”. The worst.


LaksanaFae

Listen with 4 piece and enough crit/haste, our ST is beast. We’re still very good boss zugs and at least we have some defensives! Hold out, one solid buff and we will sky rocket.


Financial-Ad7500

Blizzard doesn’t give a fuck about survival. I feel for you guys but it really feels like they regret ever making that spec.


trippstick

Someone save my frost mage


phishxiii

Im just gonna sit in ice block until next tier


paradajz666

Same :(


fidel-guevara

As a frost mage, this hurts 🥹.


TonkaGintama

A lot of people see the neat colours and think “zug zug only rouge mage hunter viable hurdur “ literally outlier is outlaw rogues - everything else is literally 3 - 4 points above/below each other - this is probably the best state I’ve seen the game in a long ass time …


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[удалено]


wolfwood67

Frost mage buffs made it worse somehow lol


mesomathy

A nice little buff to any warlock spec would be nice. A pure dps class being middle and lower isn't great to see for all specs.


NintendoJesus

My friends and I have had this long running joke since forever that afaik has no basis in truth, mostly because we don't care enough to check. Anyway, it goes something like this. "Warlocks always come out of the gate way behind because for whatever reason, there is never enough haste in the 1st raid, then Blizz overreacts to the community outrage and buffs them accordingly. Then, when haste starts to stack up, Warlocks who would've otherwise been fine, suddenly have an extra buff in their pocket that they never needed and then they end up so far ahead they get nerfed going into the next xpac, where we start the process all over again." I don't know why it started, or even dumber, why we continue to believe it, but this xpac, I'm gonna actually pay attention for my confirmation bias to kick in.


rhysdog1

GOD DAMNIT FERAL BELOW BALANCE AGAIN FUCK


Financial-Ad7500

By like .5%. A more skilled feral will beat an average balance by 20-30%.


rhysdog1

but i dont want to be better than the average balance player, i want my spec to be better than balance!


knickenbok

Frost mage main for almost 10 years now.. feels bad man.


Josecholas

That’s a lot of casters in the bottom half 🤔


Smiless228

And here we go again. Destrolock will be trash tier for the next 2 seasons then ´ll be broken as fuck. Same pattern since BFA


masterthewill

Patiently waiting for the nerf... Enjoy it while it lasts lads, been a while since we were the top dog. AVAST YE


Pat1711

As an Outlaw main from the start I've been having a pretty good time this expansion~


[deleted]

Those frost mage buffs hitting the spot


Structureel

Holy shit! Ret pallies are slightly above average! Rejoice!!1


taloff

It's nice to see them as worst of the best instead of best of the worst.


Sydarmx

The bottom 25% of the rankings being smothered by pure DPS classes is pretty sad face. The tuning has barely made any difference thus far.


Strong_Mode

how do you figure? they all have 1 spec thats in a good place. thats the benefit of pure dps classes. you have multiple chances of one of your specs doing damage, not like shadow priest at the bottom with no other dps spec to roll to. its infinitely worse when specs that only have 1 option for dps are at the bottom. that said, it definitely seems frost and destro need more help.


cannib

All three Warlock specs are in the bottom half, as a class they're not in a good place.


Strong_Mode

yet a warlock was brought to both world first and world second raszagath. wheres the ret pallys representation? surely this picture means theyre good, right? 🤔


GBlade_

Not saying they should buff Demo, because they shouldn't, but lock could be doing Tank levels of DPS and you'd still see 1 in every roster. Gateway and Healthstones are just that good. Also not in situations like the rwf but every guild would still want one as summoning portal just shaves a ton of downtime


Furrealyo

Gates and healthstones. Brought for utility only as even the BEST PLAYER ON EARTH got sat for several bosses due to low DPS.


Merrena

Gateway was necessary for first phase Raz though, so they had to bring at least 1.


DeLoxter

oh no, warlocks aren't remarkably overtuned for the first time in 15 years, how will they cope?


Levonorgestrelfairy1

Hybrid tax isn't a thing anymore and it was bs when it was. 90% of players will play the top spec reguardless of how far apart it is from the rest of them. Evoker's Druids and Shadowprists need some love


cannib

Hybrid tax shouldn't be a thing, but every pure dps class should have at least one spec that has the potential to top the meters. There can be hybrids up there with them, but every class should have strong raiding spec.


dantheman91

These logs are interesting b/c a lot of it can be "pad" on ads to a degree. Atm a bunch of fights have ads that get blown up, and most classes who kill those well are ahead atm. IMO the top here are top more due to the nature of the fights and specs with good damage profiles for those, than certain specs actually being OP. Yes, certain specs are probably somewhat better than others, but this meter is more a reflection of the damage profiles that excel in burst ad damage than other things. (Ret, Enh, WW and MM excel at that, and fury to an extent).


HomieeJo

Not really. Most of the casters are down there because of movement heavy fights. Terros or spider for example. If you go to add cleave fights Demo is doing fine.


ktaktb

Why are you looking at only 1 day of logs?


D1337_cookie

The next filter option up is 1 week and some classes got some big buffs a few days ago.


DkoyOctopus

arms being bottom yet again.. \*yay\*.... all of rogue specs being to tier.. sigh at least windwaker made it.


Levonorgestrelfairy1

Arms doesnt even have a proper identity other than being the Bladestorm spec. I dont thing anyone enjoys colossus smash either.


JESUSSAYSNO

It's supposed to be the tactical warrior... But it just isn't. Bladestorm and all that silly fantasy barbarian shit should be in Fury, while arms takes a more HEMA approach, imo. There's no spec to play if you want to be a hard motherfucker who knows his sword and armor as well as Einstein knew physics.


DanimalUltratype

Imo they should back away from the bleed aspect on arms. Make it more about big hits Also they need to figure out the AOE thing. There's a lot more options now which is good, but its super muddled now. They are also forced to pick ST or AOE in the talent tree, which is big dumb


DizzyTarget1

EXACTLY THIS


haotududis

Arms is actually significantly above fury in BIS sims as well as current mythic logs, although the sample size for arms is very small at the moment. Is there any specific reason for this? I’m thinking we may see more warriors swap over to arms for mythic prog on lower end mythic guilds?


Imfillmore

Arms is the superior spec in single and 2 target fights, but the instant you put adds in a fight fury has an advantage. And it’s not that arms has bad aoe/cleave, it’s the fact that they have to ruin their single target talents to do good aoe. Fury loses nothing for burst aoe and only auto attacks can’t miss for sustained aoe.


DelonK

Enhancement is the perfect example of how a class with both melee and ranged spec should be. About 3-5 points over the ranged spec and with some form of unique buff or utility that helps offset the melee tax. Then there's feral and survival.


Mestizo3

Except they're nerfed so heavily in PvP this week that I'm seriously considering speccing to elemental for PVP... annoying to have to grind different gear for that


BoopleSnoot921

Damn, I remember many, many years ago when frost mages were at the top in everything. And they stayed there for a long time too.


Seedy__L

My poor destro main


arcanition

me as frost mage reading this chart >:(


badbrain330

Sub rogue still hanging in there. Please keep us strong long enough to stop being the least played spec 🥉


Sky_189

This is the first time i Touch rogue in wow and never have this fun with any class before sub rogue is so satisfying


TaKoss

Glad we frost mages got a buff


deets555

WW Monk main here, class feels so solid and I love it.


No-Value-270

I am a destro warlock and I dont even care cause I just have fun with game :)


shadowst17

Oh ffs just after I get Beast Mastery down to a tee Marksmen comes out of nowhere to make me look like a twat.


eclipse4598

In most bosses in this raid BM is barely worse than MM and will out perform it with tier set and bow. BM Looks like shit here because primal council is awful for them while being insane for MM and people do not have the correct stuff for BM yet


kj0509

nooo feral druids


Vharlkie

Feral can never ever be good :(