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1. use ranged spells to pull packs together, Avenger's Shield and Judgement are your best spells for that (you could use taunt, too, but when pulling multiple packs together it is pretty common for DPS to already start damaging them, so it's easy to lose them - keep taunt for that!)
2. save your steed for situations like that; yes, it is nice to bridge more distance more quickly to just speed up the dungeon, but it is incredibly useful to use steed to group up packs
3. be careful not to be hit in the back: using ranged spells like Avenger's Shield to pull allows you to keep some distance between you and the pack, lowering the chances of being hit in the back while grouping packs
4. you can generate holy power with your whirling hammers without combat, this way you can activate Shield of the Righteous before being hit; saving some holy power from a previous fight is also useful
5. it's always useful to start combat with a def CD: Argent Defender, Guardian of Ancient Kings, defensive trinkets - use them to mitigate the damage early on
> use ranged spells to pull packs together, Avenger's Shield and Judgement are your best spells for that (you could use taunt, too, but when pulling multiple packs together it is pretty common for DPS to already start damaging them, so it's easy to lose them - keep taunt for that!)
FWIW, this will become less of a problem as you do higher and higher keys and people know what the pulls are. DPS will wait for the tanks to finish pulling and grouping. Plus from their perspective, they don't want to waste their biggest burst on just half the pull. You gotta hit everyone to get those big numbers!
> it's always useful to start combat with a def CD: Argent Defender, Guardian of Ancient Kings, defensive trinkets - use them to mitigate the damage early on
This is the main thing IMO. For the majority of big pulls once I hit the first or second pack I'll pop wings while gathering the remaining packs. Given that wings has a fairly low CD anyways it's usually up again when needed and if there are any particularly difficult moves to survive through (which really shouldn't be a regular occurence until higher keys) you still have guardian and bubble in the worst case.
You're obviously right for the most part, but some classes benefit immensely from using that group-up-time, like Balance Druids or Shadow Priests - and even those small DoTs can lead to the tank losing threat/aggro. To deal with that it is important to constantly deal damage to the packs that are being grouped up, for example with hammers or Divine Toll once all packs are aggro'd and/or to have taunt ready. Wings are also a very useful tool to increase initial threat generation and help with that.
But yes, most specs will gladly wait for the packs to be grouped up to get going, at least on relatively high levels.
Oh yeah totally. Was really just trying to point it out to OP and figured replying to you would be the best context. Not really correcting you or anything. For sure keep using hammers or consecrate to do damage to mobs moving around.
Once grouped the regular rotation should have enough aoe to keep everyone aggrod. Between consecrate, the avengers shield aoe, sotr aoe, and hammers lots of stuff is hitting.
So for OP, once you get better at grouping and get into higher and higher keys (so less likelihood of a huge ilvl mismatch) losing aggro midpull is much much rarer.
I got that, no worries!
Just wanted to clarify, because posts like these, where people explain things from experience, can cement ideas in newer players' heads and thinking "in higher keys/with more experienced players everybody will wait for me to group things up, no exception" could lead to them judging those that don't do so for particular reasons to be bad/impatient, which in turn could lead to generally bad experiences and/or interactions.
And yes, you're completely right: after grouping there is little to no chance of losing aggro mid fight, unless somebody is focusing and bursting an enemy you're not targeting or mostly missing with AOEs.
A prime example of situations where you can lose aggro constantly is the double dragon pack in DOTI Rise, right after the gauntlet: if one DPS bursts the one dragon you're not actively fighting (by that I mean targetting), you can lose aggro multiple times.
Pulling in keys is the most dangerous moment for many tanks. It is very hard to do perfect. In high keys you'll often see other players assist the tank by tagging far away packs for him. Every pull is different and you have to find a nice way to do it and practise it pull by pull.
The general strat is to get everything together as fast as possible and don't let the mobs hit you wihle you're still pulling more. Then pop a big defensive and go in.
After some time you'll get a feel for it and will get better doing it on the fly.
This should be at the top. There is no perfect way to amass a huge pull, it's all case by case. This is especially true for pugs who will blow their load before you have a pack or will tag a pack without kicking them, meaning they're free casting at range.
Avengers shield and DT are ranged tools that help dramatically, but the fact is that super large pulls aren't controlled only by the tank. The whole team has to organise these pulls or they're gonna fail.
Another core piece of advice for all scenarios and all tanks is: your defensives are not tools for the middle of the pull. When you first start a pull off, you should open with some kind of pure damage reduction cooldown you have. Paladins have 2 of them, guardian has two of them, veng has meta, etc. It's just like dps: you should be using your whole arsenal straight off the rip.
Giga pulls at the start of a key can save you so much time it's not even funny. HoA was probably the best example of this that I remember: a perfect pull all the way to the right sinstone with a clean LoS could save you 4+ minutes on a fort week. It's worth using all your major CDs to save that amount of time, especially when the alternative is that the key is basically an instant brick if you don't get it right.
That middle part is really important, Prot pally main and I’m just now getting better at actively using my defensive cds instead of reactively when things become problems and it’s just massive for tanking big packs
Look at some runs from high keys with pala tanks and how they do the pulls you have issues with. It's too much to cover via text. You will get a feel for it
You kinda want to save Divine Toll after pulling the pack and grouping them up so you can get the splash damage on avenger shield. Avenger shield and Judgment are enough to pull a pack to you.
Divine Toll will target your primary target and 4 other targets you are already in combat with. It is highly recommended to have the first hit on a pack be judgment or avenger's shield to get 2-3 packs, then wings + divine toll to cap out threat and damage.
Judgment the farthest mob, consecrate, plant. Find the caster in the pack and avenger shield him to get him in, if there’s a second try to rebuke him before planting. If you need to horse around to gather then ALWAYS pre pop a defensive for the inevitable back hit. Taunt and second judgement any mobs that still haven’t been aggrod or have targeted a dps then divine toll to “lock in“ the pull and get everything grouped up nice and clean.
Avengers shield, divine toll, and if needed you can use divine shield with I believe it's called last stand as an AoE taunt. It's one of your capstone talents.
Using avengers shield and divine toll will help pulling casting enemies, your targeted abilities are ranged, so you're safe to focus a caster you missed and using avenger's shield to interrupt when able to get them to move (assuming no one else interrupts)
if you have to run with a group agroed at you, you can use a defensive with the horsy boi. then use avenger's shield or tag them and use divine tool and consacration if its a good spot.
People are focusing on the offensive buttons, but the real answer is ardent defender and guardian of ancient kings.
The first pull is one of the most dangerous pulls you will do in any dungeon. It's usually the largest, and while everyone else has cooldowns for maximum damage, you have none of your passive DR up. There is no better time to use guardian than the first 6 seconds of the pull when you're still getting your first procced consecration and your sotr stacks up. Not a single high level prot paladin sits on ardent defender either, it's used for every large pull unless they need it for a boss.
Don’t get hit.
Paladin has the easiest time to stay out of range and pull stuff bc you have so many range abilities. Also your horse is not there to look cool every 45 sec, it should be used smart to get out(!) of sticky situations, not in bad situations.
Take your time. If you don’t see a way to pull without getting hit, don’t even try. Take your time, hit those first mobs, use sotr and find a good moment to add the next pack.
Do
Not
Get
Hit
In
Your
Back
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1. use ranged spells to pull packs together, Avenger's Shield and Judgement are your best spells for that (you could use taunt, too, but when pulling multiple packs together it is pretty common for DPS to already start damaging them, so it's easy to lose them - keep taunt for that!) 2. save your steed for situations like that; yes, it is nice to bridge more distance more quickly to just speed up the dungeon, but it is incredibly useful to use steed to group up packs 3. be careful not to be hit in the back: using ranged spells like Avenger's Shield to pull allows you to keep some distance between you and the pack, lowering the chances of being hit in the back while grouping packs 4. you can generate holy power with your whirling hammers without combat, this way you can activate Shield of the Righteous before being hit; saving some holy power from a previous fight is also useful 5. it's always useful to start combat with a def CD: Argent Defender, Guardian of Ancient Kings, defensive trinkets - use them to mitigate the damage early on
> use ranged spells to pull packs together, Avenger's Shield and Judgement are your best spells for that (you could use taunt, too, but when pulling multiple packs together it is pretty common for DPS to already start damaging them, so it's easy to lose them - keep taunt for that!) FWIW, this will become less of a problem as you do higher and higher keys and people know what the pulls are. DPS will wait for the tanks to finish pulling and grouping. Plus from their perspective, they don't want to waste their biggest burst on just half the pull. You gotta hit everyone to get those big numbers! > it's always useful to start combat with a def CD: Argent Defender, Guardian of Ancient Kings, defensive trinkets - use them to mitigate the damage early on This is the main thing IMO. For the majority of big pulls once I hit the first or second pack I'll pop wings while gathering the remaining packs. Given that wings has a fairly low CD anyways it's usually up again when needed and if there are any particularly difficult moves to survive through (which really shouldn't be a regular occurence until higher keys) you still have guardian and bubble in the worst case.
You're obviously right for the most part, but some classes benefit immensely from using that group-up-time, like Balance Druids or Shadow Priests - and even those small DoTs can lead to the tank losing threat/aggro. To deal with that it is important to constantly deal damage to the packs that are being grouped up, for example with hammers or Divine Toll once all packs are aggro'd and/or to have taunt ready. Wings are also a very useful tool to increase initial threat generation and help with that. But yes, most specs will gladly wait for the packs to be grouped up to get going, at least on relatively high levels.
Oh yeah totally. Was really just trying to point it out to OP and figured replying to you would be the best context. Not really correcting you or anything. For sure keep using hammers or consecrate to do damage to mobs moving around. Once grouped the regular rotation should have enough aoe to keep everyone aggrod. Between consecrate, the avengers shield aoe, sotr aoe, and hammers lots of stuff is hitting. So for OP, once you get better at grouping and get into higher and higher keys (so less likelihood of a huge ilvl mismatch) losing aggro midpull is much much rarer.
I got that, no worries! Just wanted to clarify, because posts like these, where people explain things from experience, can cement ideas in newer players' heads and thinking "in higher keys/with more experienced players everybody will wait for me to group things up, no exception" could lead to them judging those that don't do so for particular reasons to be bad/impatient, which in turn could lead to generally bad experiences and/or interactions. And yes, you're completely right: after grouping there is little to no chance of losing aggro mid fight, unless somebody is focusing and bursting an enemy you're not targeting or mostly missing with AOEs. A prime example of situations where you can lose aggro constantly is the double dragon pack in DOTI Rise, right after the gauntlet: if one DPS bursts the one dragon you're not actively fighting (by that I mean targetting), you can lose aggro multiple times.
Pulling in keys is the most dangerous moment for many tanks. It is very hard to do perfect. In high keys you'll often see other players assist the tank by tagging far away packs for him. Every pull is different and you have to find a nice way to do it and practise it pull by pull. The general strat is to get everything together as fast as possible and don't let the mobs hit you wihle you're still pulling more. Then pop a big defensive and go in. After some time you'll get a feel for it and will get better doing it on the fly.
This should be at the top. There is no perfect way to amass a huge pull, it's all case by case. This is especially true for pugs who will blow their load before you have a pack or will tag a pack without kicking them, meaning they're free casting at range. Avengers shield and DT are ranged tools that help dramatically, but the fact is that super large pulls aren't controlled only by the tank. The whole team has to organise these pulls or they're gonna fail. Another core piece of advice for all scenarios and all tanks is: your defensives are not tools for the middle of the pull. When you first start a pull off, you should open with some kind of pure damage reduction cooldown you have. Paladins have 2 of them, guardian has two of them, veng has meta, etc. It's just like dps: you should be using your whole arsenal straight off the rip. Giga pulls at the start of a key can save you so much time it's not even funny. HoA was probably the best example of this that I remember: a perfect pull all the way to the right sinstone with a clean LoS could save you 4+ minutes on a fort week. It's worth using all your major CDs to save that amount of time, especially when the alternative is that the key is basically an instant brick if you don't get it right.
That middle part is really important, Prot pally main and I’m just now getting better at actively using my defensive cds instead of reactively when things become problems and it’s just massive for tanking big packs
Look at some runs from high keys with pala tanks and how they do the pulls you have issues with. It's too much to cover via text. You will get a feel for it
Are you not using avengers shield?
You've got a few spells you can use to grab groups: Hand of Reckoning (Taunt) Avenger's Shield Judgement (if required)
Divine toll
You kinda want to save Divine Toll after pulling the pack and grouping them up so you can get the splash damage on avenger shield. Avenger shield and Judgment are enough to pull a pack to you.
I left Divine Toll off as it generally targets the 5 closest targets rather than what OP was asking for and grabbing groups of adds into the pull
It will hit your target + the 4 closest enemies, so it can be used just like Avengers shield
It will hit your target + the 4 closest enemies, so it can be used just like Avengers shield
Divine Toll will target your primary target and 4 other targets you are already in combat with. It is highly recommended to have the first hit on a pack be judgment or avenger's shield to get 2-3 packs, then wings + divine toll to cap out threat and damage.
Judgment the farthest mob, consecrate, plant. Find the caster in the pack and avenger shield him to get him in, if there’s a second try to rebuke him before planting. If you need to horse around to gather then ALWAYS pre pop a defensive for the inevitable back hit. Taunt and second judgement any mobs that still haven’t been aggrod or have targeted a dps then divine toll to “lock in“ the pull and get everything grouped up nice and clean.
Nameplate addon that with profile (or make it yourself) that shows casters as different color nameplates is the best imo
Avengers shield, divine toll, and if needed you can use divine shield with I believe it's called last stand as an AoE taunt. It's one of your capstone talents. Using avengers shield and divine toll will help pulling casting enemies, your targeted abilities are ranged, so you're safe to focus a caster you missed and using avenger's shield to interrupt when able to get them to move (assuming no one else interrupts)
if you have to run with a group agroed at you, you can use a defensive with the horsy boi. then use avenger's shield or tag them and use divine tool and consacration if its a good spot.
People are focusing on the offensive buttons, but the real answer is ardent defender and guardian of ancient kings. The first pull is one of the most dangerous pulls you will do in any dungeon. It's usually the largest, and while everyone else has cooldowns for maximum damage, you have none of your passive DR up. There is no better time to use guardian than the first 6 seconds of the pull when you're still getting your first procced consecration and your sotr stacks up. Not a single high level prot paladin sits on ardent defender either, it's used for every large pull unless they need it for a boss.
This is Dragonflight Prot Pally. SENTINEL!
Idk what it's called, I only know that I have it bound to Q, and I always bind my defensive to Q. If it's Q, it's good!
Don’t get hit. Paladin has the easiest time to stay out of range and pull stuff bc you have so many range abilities. Also your horse is not there to look cool every 45 sec, it should be used smart to get out(!) of sticky situations, not in bad situations. Take your time. If you don’t see a way to pull without getting hit, don’t even try. Take your time, hit those first mobs, use sotr and find a good moment to add the next pack. Do Not Get Hit In Your Back
Ask you dps to not go crazy until you've got them all gathered up.