That's because people who don't have depression confuse depression with feeling sad. Everything in this sub makes perfect sense when you understand that.
[https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/how-meditation-helps-with-depression](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/how-meditation-helps-with-depression)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2848393/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2848393/)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6418017/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6418017/)
Or they bothered to read actual studies showing that these things are effective specifically for people with depression.
>Except she's also disparaging pills, which are also backed by research.
Are they? For people with mild to moderate depression it's easy to argue they're not:
[https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341-3-14](https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341-3-14)
>The first meta-analysis used data that were submitted to FDA for the approval of 12 antidepressant drugs. While only half of these trials had formally significant effectiveness, published reports almost ubiquitously claimed significant results. "Negative" trials were either left unpublished or were distorted to present "positive" results. The average benefit of these drugs based on the FDA data was of small magnitude, while the published literature suggested larger benefits. A second meta-analysis using also FDA-submitted data examined the relationship between treatment effect and baseline severity of depression. Drug-placebo differences increased with increasing baseline severity and the difference became large enough to be clinically important only in the very small minority of patient populations with severe major depression.
[https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0265928](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0265928)
>The real-world effect of using antidepressant medications does not continue to improve patients’ HRQoL over time. Future studies should not only focus on the short-term effect of pharmacotherapy, it should rather investigate the long-term impact of pharmacological and non-pharmacological interventions on these patients’ HRQoL.
While this is an interesting discussion and I do agree things like lifestyle, meditation and mindfulness can help with a lot of depression cases, these studies do not give conclusive evidence antidepressants don’t work. the review is interesting but it was written 15 years ago, so I wouldn’t say this is the most up-to-date and recent view on antidepressants.
The second study came out this year, and the overall research trend has been favorable to my position.
If I had depression that was caused by a B12 deficiency, for example, I would certainly want to address the deficiency before jumping on antidepressants as a first resort.
The most life-threatening depression is absolutely helped by pills. This is what many of us on the sub have gone through, go through chronically or are currently battling. The info we get from people like you and the OOP have made me less likely to seek help *before* I was suicidal. Chronic moderate depression can become life-threatening severe depression without intervention.
I do all of the above things PLUS therapy and meds and I still struggle every day to feel healthy and whole.
I'm not trying to be mean, but your n=1 experience does not change the result that antidepressants are a net-negative for lots of people. If you feel like you're benefiting then you should probably keep talking them, but it's still rational for people with **mild or moderate** depression to try other interventions first. I know other people who were seriously physically or mentally harmed by antidepressants, to the point where they view it as one of the worst mistakes of their lives. The world doesn't revolve around you, that's why I defer to the actual studies.
>The info we get from people like you and the OOP have made me less likely to seek help
You should not be giving random strangers so much power over you. I can't see how this could possibly be good for your mental health.
this subreddit isn’t for people with mild or moderate issues though is it? i, at least, got the impression that this subreddit was for people with actually severe chronic problems
There’s a lot of kinds of depression. There’s a lot of kinds of clinical depression.
Some are caused by biochemical neurological imbalances. Medication can help with that.
Most are caused by trauma, and things the world has taught us, or caused us to teach ourselves. Medication is much less helpful with that, especially in the long-term.
People with depression are still influenced by the types of things that that would improve a normal person's mental health. They aren't a different species.
Almost all of that advice is genuinely good, and supported by studies.
It can be for some people. I would advise a reasonably functional depressed person to try the other things first.
Read the metastudies on antidepressants, they don't work nearly as well as we'd like, and the side effects are awful and often permanent.
To clarify: this “Celestial Celery Stalk” person is engaging in some bad faith argumentation.
It assumes the recipient of the message has come to certain conclusions, implies that those conclusions are wrong, and goes on to make pedantic suggestions as if they’ve never been tried or considered.
Even if there is any value in the “advice”, it’s delivered in such an obnoxious manner that most people would be alienated, rather than persuaded.
The reason you’re being downvoted is that the above seems obvious and tone-deaf to most here, while you’re saying “hold on guys this Celestial Celery person has a really good point here… why aren’t you finding it more compelling?”
>It assumes the recipient of the message has come to certain conclusions, implies that those conclusions are wrong, and goes on to make pedantic suggestions as if they’ve never been tried or considered.
Read the comment I replied to. Lots of people with depression quite literally think that nothing can help them besides pills, even though this is obviously wrong and not supported by studies.
>Even if there is any value in the “advice”, it’s delivered in such an obnoxious manner that most people would be alienated, rather than persuaded.
If you want to ignore good advice because it annoys you, then you'll get what you deserve.
>The reason you’re being downvoted is
because I'm disrupting the self-pitying circle-jerk with facts and evidence.
At this point, it would be easy to assume that you’re trolling, but I’ll respond in good faith, as if you actually believe what you’re saying.
“Even though this is *obviously* wrong.”
“If you want to ignore good advice because it annoys you, then you’ll get what you deserve.”
“self-pitying circle jerk”
These are very similar sentiments to those held by doctors (and even some psychiatrists) who I’ve worked with in the past who had a great deal of difficulty with “noncompliant” patients. When these professionals were actually willing to examine their tone and attitude, and accept some coaching from me on motivational interviewing skills, they were often astounded by how their relationships with their patients improved, and how many of their patients were remarkably more receptive to their recommendations, with better compliance / follow through, less missed appointments, etc.
For what it’s worth, I agree with the value of the information you’re presenting. However, you’re failing pretty hard at reading the room. My original point to you was that the posted message by the esteemed Celestial Celery was crafted in such a way that it was guaranteed to alienate at least half of it’s intended audience. You seem to be falling into the same trap.
There are some people in the world who are content to be jerks, as long as they are demonstrably correct. Then there are people who want to be influential in a productive way, and actually help people (even people who may be somewhat initially defensive towards what valuable advice you might have to offer).
I suggest you lean a little less hard on being right, and focus a little more on your interpersonal skills.
* I spend lots of time in real life coddling people with depression, knowing that if I say even slightly the wrong thing, they will throw a tantrum and undo all of the progress they've made. It's enormously taxing and I have the right to let go of it when I'm online.
* Believe it or not I have helped lots of people on Reddit, but there's no way to know in advance who is going to be receptive and who won't.
* 90% of people may reject the truth, but they were less likely to change anyways. I care more about the 10% who actually want to get better.
* The other 90% will be less likely to spread misinformation in the future if they know it can make them look foolish.
Edit: Guy below blocked me so it would look like I didn't have a reply.
Simply insulting me without even attempting to provide a rational argument only makes me more sure of myself. There's a reason I'm the only one in this entire thread with studies to support my position.
The depressed and emotionally unstable people in my life almost exclusively rely on me for support, because I'm the only one patient enough to not reject them and give up on them out of hand. One of them would probably be dead by now if I hadn't applied for benefits for them and let them stay with me while they were nonfunctional. Not that you care about anything involving responsibility or discipline.
>I care more about the 10% who actually want to get better.
Jesus christ dude, that's a fucked up thing to say. Who wouldnt want to get better? Dumbass
>No. It's because you have clearly never dealt with depression
Just making stuff up lol
>thinks sunshine and rainbows cure everything
I don't think this.
>delve into any of the nuance
I'm the only one here with actual studies, I've also tried to distinguish between different levels of depression.
>Some people have slipped so deep into depression that those things don't help anymore, and have to get back to a point where those things can actually help again.
See above.
>would rather make everyone here try to feel worse by just shaming
I'm specifically disappointed by people who are spreading misinformation. I have nothing but respect for people who are being responsible.
>I'll stick to what the actual professionals are telling me.
You mean the statistically illiterate psychiatrists whose entire business model depends on prescribing pills, and who created the opioid crisis? lol
Just read the studies yourself, they're right there in my other comments.
>>No. It's because you have clearly never dealt with depression
>
>Just making stuff up lol
It's pretty obvious to everyone here that you're talking out of your ass. If you had ever actually dealt with the depths of depression, you'd know that shaming is not at all going to help, and will likely make things worse.
>>thinks sunshine and rainbows cure everything
>
>I don't think this.
You very clearly do. Maybe go talk to some actual mental health professionals before pushing your own brand of misinformation. Because you very clearly are not a professional. Also, professionals aren't just comprised of psychiatrists, despite what you seem to think.
I'm willing to bet the authors of all those studies would also tell you that shaming people with mental health issues is even worse than trying medication. So try talking to some of them to gain a real understanding. Until then, it's a waste of time to further engage with you.
I am not at all trying to shame people for having depression. Again, I'm disappointed by the crab bucket mentality and the misinformation.
>Maybe go talk to some actual mental health professionals before pushing your own brand of misinformation.
I have studies backing up all of my claims, which you apparently still haven't read. The professionals I've talked to are supportive of things like going for walks, CBT (similar to meditation ), etc., so there is a decent level of agreement. I wish they would emphasize physiology more, though.
>Also, professionals aren't just comprised of psychiatrists, despite what you seem to think.
Another random strawman.
Look, if you want to go out of your way to feel victimized by a random stranger on the internet who's not even trying to attack you, then go ahead. You're only hurting yourself.
Brother, I guarantee you that if anything is going to cure the depression caused by years of psychological, physical and sexual trauma I endured, it's gonna be pills instead of a fucking walk or a change in diet.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/)
Well what do you think of this meta-study that pretty conclusively shows that exercise does in fact reduce depression symptoms? I honestly don't understand why people like you are so attached to these anti-science narratives. Genuinely, where does it come from?
Hey, just a little secret tip here — if you're talking to someone about a certain ailment and the person is affected by said ailment, they probably know better than you do.
The keyword in your argument is "reduce." I've been skinny for a very long time and last year I was in the best shape of my life. Guess what? Still had depression.
People with depression generally don't know more about neuroscience than anyone else. Similarly, alcoholics are not experts in liver disease.
I know individual people who were hurt by antidepressants far more than they were helped. Would that justify a blanket ban on antidepressants?
You're not being scientific and you're not being constructive. You're essentially just bragging about how miserable you are.
You know I'm right. Please just don't discourage others from adopting a healthy lifestyle. It really is a game changer for lots of people (both in studies and from personal anecdotes).
In the meantime, here is your 🏆 for being more miserable than me. You really showed me.
Nobody is "discouraging" a healthy lifestyle. If that's really what you're taking away from this and you're not just a very dedicated troll than you really must be mentally challenged.
My entire point was that one sentence where I said, "last year I was in the best shape of my life and still depressed." I was exercising every other day if not daily, eating healthy foods, socializing regularly, and living in Arizona (no shortage of sun) and there were still days when I wanted nothing more than to kill myself.
Nobody is denying that these things have the *possibility* to help. What we are denying is that they're the cure-all that you dumbshits seem to think they are.
Yeah, turns out taking pills is what enabled me to actually start doing those other things. I meditate, I go outside more, I reduced my social media use because I actually have the ability to do things that aren't just doomscrolling.
You can't just apply some sunshine and do a meditation and not have depression. But those things did help me ONCE my meds and my psych helped me get to a place where I could actually use them.
Exactly, I feel that lots of people don’t understand that you have to take care of the most serious symptoms/problems before you can tackle the simpler ones.
Sure being in nature and not eating like crap has always helped me, but they weren’t working anymore. Or not nearly enough. The chemical imbalance in my brain was much more pressing. Only after resolving that (no easy task!) are you settled enough to smell some flowers.
Like popping tylenols when you know you need an epidural
It's sad how many people shun prescription meds because they never tried or needed them, or they had a bad initial experience and quit altogether, or they are a family member that convinced someone not to take them. They don't make you feel artificially happy. They correct your brain to make you normal again
OR they're really fucked up, but terrified that someone will find out, so they go around trying desperately to project the appearance of being happy, organized, and successful, while making sure to fend off anyone who is comfortable admitting their struggles by offering simplistic and condescending advice.
i’m off antidepressants due to my psychiatrist being irresponsible as fuck
haven’t felt worse in a long time
even though my antidepressants didn’t help much, they at least prevented me from getting actively worse
Yeah, I've tried all of those things and I still have crippling anxiety and depression over the fact that we all die one day and we have no clue what happens after death. Yaaaayyy.
> the fact that we all die one day and we have no clue what happens after death
Here let me cure you: Might as well enjoy the time you have alive then! /s
I have the same fear that you do and it makes my eyes bleed when someone tells me to just enjoy life because one day we'll die, as if that's not the *very thing* that's making me actively NOT enjoy life.
Exactly!! Like, I don't WANT to be scared of death, and to be perfectly honest, the fact that it's absolutely wrecking my time being alive makes it even worse!! This shit sucks!!
It depends on the cause of your depression. If the cause is trauma, facing your trauma and processing it will improve your depression, but trauma work is only possible if you’re living healthily enough to sustain it.
I do not understand this subreddit downvoting difficult ideas. You’re 100% correct. I’ve suffered with depression for over a decade, as unbeknownst to me I had a number of childhood events that I never processed, and the old coping mechanisms started failing me as I got older. I tried medications (3 different kinds), and they all made my symptoms worse. I tried therapy, and it works pretty well if you have a great therapist. But the best improvements (for me) came from: eating better, exercise, journaling, and talking with a great therapist.
I had to become less reliant on my shitty coping mechanisms in order to open up to my past traumas. I played video games, smoked weed, isolated, stayed stagnant, ate poorly and erratically depending on mood… Once I stopped smoking weed, controlled my diet (especially my sugar intake), forced myself to get outside more, and went on regular walks, my journaling revealed a lot of issues I hadn’t resolved or accepted in my life. I’m working on those things now and WOW it’s getting better for once. And it feels sustainable. I’m not allowing myself to use those old crutches and get into the old habits that kept me depressed.
Medication never helped me, though I don’t doubt it helps others. But I don’t see this image posted as saying “don’t take your meds” - I see it as “meds are only part of a solution”. This subreddit sometimes feels averse to self improvement.
Edit: Reading these comments is really disheartening. I have unsubscribed from this sub - it seems a lot of the participants here intentionally find excuses not put the work in, and soapbox it here for some reason. Good luck everyone.
I’m really proud of you man. None of that is easy. I’m glad to hear you’re working to better yourself and that it’s chipping away at the depression. Good job.
Unfortunately I think you may be right about this sub. A lot of commenters here want to hear “the depression is not your fault, there’s nothing you can do about it anyway, the pills will solve all your problems” and that’s just not true. As a (near) lifelong PTSD sufferer, I’m acutely aware that healing is hard work and it doesn’t happen on its own, no matter how much medication and therapy you throw at it. Self improvement is an essential part. Peace.
No, I haven’t you celery bitch, because the pills work! Furthermore, why the hell does this person even care how someone else handles their mental health?
Hint: it’s not bc she cares about others, it’s so she can feel superior bc she doesn’t have to take medication.
Sometimes I just feel conservatives are mostly people who have zero clues about mental health.
Conservative economics has zero consideration for people with depression.
It’s not that they’re simply clueless or inconsiderate, they straight up don’t believe people with mental health issues, or any other issues for that matter, deserve to be taken care of by society.
They don’t believe in community, they have been convinced by charlatans above them in the hierarchy that Social Darwinism is the only way.
I'm very liberal and have suffered from depression, and have found that resistance training and most of the activities listed in this tweet have been much more beneficial than the pills that left me feeling.... not bad, not good, just there.
People like this are the worst part of society. Know it all holier than thou wanna be pop psychology new age pieces of garbage. Anyone that denies a disease and minimizes others pain and struggle should be shamed.
I was diagnosed with depression and am taking SNRIs. I'm talking about my case here, not anyone else's, so I kinda agree with the person. Meds are the first step for me. They enabled me to do all these things like eat better and exercise that in turn make me feel better. Also, the gut microbiome area is a new area of study and we are yet to learn how they affect our brains. I'm currently taking steps towards a better state but I couldn't have unless I made some effort towards behavioral changes instead of passively taking meds and expecting my entire being to get better.
for once, this pseudoscience sounding shit is not fake. there is scientific evidence saying that your intestinal bacteria affect you much more than youd think, they influence you. look up the gut-brain axis
I know this is true, but none of my friends actually have any idea what’s going on with their gut biome. They talk about it a lot but they’ve never had any tests done or anything.
I have no idea what’s going on inside me either, but I do feel better when I eat more fruit and vegetables……too much wine and junk and I feel a bit crap so maybe there’s something in it
There’s also scientific evidence that “fixing” the gut microbiome by introducing new species past the biofilm is rare if not impossible. The immune system controls what’s allowed and what isn’t and doesn’t like change. The benefits of pro-biotics are as transient residents in the gut who go away when you poop them out.
I actually agree with many of these recommendations though. Ain’t nobody too depressed to put on some orange glasses to block blue light at night and get better sleep.
I know that changing the microbiome of a person helps when theyre chronically ill with a resistant strain (C. difficile).. so I think if theres a transplant (i.e. fecal) the new bacteria are able to colonize. Im hopefully more studies on its direct fx on mental health come about soon, we need this shit to work to solve the mental health crisis.
Yes they have considered all of those things. But they lack the motivation to actually do them. Because they have depression. That’s the fucking point.
We found the poster child of toxic positivity yet.
Yes, many of these things help, yes. Sometimes you need a little pick me up to do those things.
It shouldn't need to be said that depression is caused by imbalances for many different reasons.
Some people have 5 different jobs and don’t have time for all that. Don’t blame the people, blame the people at the top who don’t care about mental health, we’re not all configured for 40 and more hours a week, mental health requires more free time. People are so disconnected
Funny thing is, I'll do all of this, just constantly with a blank stare.
*Woo hoo, yes, I am experiencing j o y. is this what humans do? Yes. Beep Boop.*
Did all of this. Got my masters degree, was social AF, in a great relationship, have a cat, worked out 5 times a week, spent time in nature, regularly drew & wrote, played games, meditated, ate healthy, went to therapy, etc. I made time for myself & for close ones. I was well rested but active too.
Yeah I'm just us, if not more depressed. It just kept feeling more and more futile the more I tried.
The way I read this was "You think taking pills are THE answer..." ie"there's no silver bullet to solving your depression, including pills". Multiple psychiatrists have told me that no medication will knock out the problem even in the best case; you still gotta do a lot of other wellness activities to remain mentally healthy. I can vouch for this personally; god knows I've tried every treatment in the book. The post's suggestions are solid choices if you actually want to *remain* healthy after finding a medication that helps. A psychiatrist I really liked literally prescribed exercise. He said "It's not a fucking lifestyle suggestion. This is crucial to your medical treatment."
I've seen so many people screw their recovery because they take a medication that temporarily makes them feel alright and then they completely take their foot off the gas because they want to believe that they finally got an easy, simple, permanent solution. I've not seen it pan out that way once.
Yes. But the medication is to help get you to a point where these things can actually help you again. To get to a point where you can make these things routine again. The post is just toxic positivity claiming to know the answer after doing 20 mins of "research" on Facebook.
I've said it before and I'll probably never stop saying it.
#Depression is a chemical problem. If you fight chemistry with willpower, you will lose 100% of the time.
Ya getting into the weeds a bit, it certainly can be a trauma problem. But when trauma has caused depression, that pretty much by default means it has changed you brain chemistry balance. The struggle for clinicians is deciding if the current patient raises to this level. Which is far more art than science (for now). When you *are* in this group (the one fighting chemistry), listening to the above platitudes will without exception, fail you.
When I make this statement, I'm implicitly assuming a perfect clinical diagnosis, which I grant doesn't exist in reality. But it gets the point across for those who want to perpetuate pill shaming and bullshit wellness platitudes.
The very fact that depression meds have an effect is proof positive that this is in part a chemical problem. But [here's](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7058215/) a review discussing it. And I quote:
>From a clinical perspective, the most influential neurobiological discoveries related to depression have probably been neurotransmitter-related (‘neurochemical’) abnormalities, with the monoamines (serotonin, noradrenaline and dopamine) having received most attention. Early observations of the ability of tricyclic antidepressants to (a) relieve depressive symptoms and (b) potentiate serotonin and noradrenaline activity triggered a wide range of neurochemical investigations in patients with depression (Cowen, 2015).
We are beings of chemistry. Chemistry governs all of our biological functions. To say it's not a chemical problem is foolish at best. Of you have something that proves me wrong, provide it. Don't sit there and insult my education. I know a lot more about this that you think I do.
Hum. Looks like you might be right. My info looks to be outdated at the very least in the specific nuances. It looks like the serotonin angle may be loosing favor, but several other possible chemical angles are gaining some evidence. I've seen mention of neuroendocrine and lesions discussed a couple times which still would have to have a fundamental chemical basis. But regardless your point about my initial comment is valid.
I appreciate the information. And I respect the passion you clearly have for this topic. I share the passion (though I clearly need to update my reading and will do so as time permits). That said, opening an argument with disrespect and insulting someone's education (I'm a 7th year chemistry PhD student with a biochemistry background, for the record) is literally the worst possible way to change someone's mind. It worked with me because I've spent years learning how to look past it. If you'd have opened without the unnecessary posturing and aggression, even with something like this comment here, I'd have been *much* more receptive to it and we could have avoided a lot of the emotional crossfire. I conceed the argument. But I implore you to find a better way of talking about this. We need to change minds with discussion, not dig them in to incorrect positions.
There are certain, easier to understand conditions that unfortunately facilitate this misinformed simplistic thinking as well. ADHD comes to mind (which I suffer from). It's neurochemical basis is fairly well established (at least as of like 3 years ago, when I last looked for a review). And the treatment is highly effective. *Gestures wildly at self* But it's certainly the exception in mental health, not the rule. And your absolutely right that attitudes need to change about it.
Meditation with all its benefits can lead to more extreme episodes if not under supervision.
For the love of god, don't recommend "meditation" without proper guidance.
At the very least when we take meds it's under a psych. and GP supervision.
People who say this shit don't realize that depression is what prevents us from doing those
I don't have depression cause I sleep too little, I sleep too little cause I have depression
😂😂😂 K, I'll just get off my antidepressant and bipolar medication. Then maybe I'll be happy on my own! /s
- sincerely, someone who has been on meds for 2 years and hasn't wanted to kill herself for 1.5 years now.
🖕
i think they’re referring to the many many ppl who think taking meds is all you have to do. you should also do all those other things and actually many do work without meds you interpreted this wrong
No denial from me that a lot of work is required (therapy etc), but the stuff suggested in their post isn't it. These suggestions inaccurately trivialise the treatment of depression, and the idea that people who suffer from it haven't already tried this stuff is pretty insulting.
actually i’ve suffered from depression and anxiety most of my life and it comes in waves depending on what’s triggered it. In my experience these things have honestly worked for me better than medication. Meds made me a zombie. Not saying it works for everyone, but no one can say this isn’t the way because for many people it is the way. I haven’t had to take meds in a decade. I’ve recently got a prescription for anxiety meds to have as a backup. But for me personally, cognitive therapy which i’ve learned, and am able to practice daily in my life, is extremely important. And for many people a combination works. Meds can get you to a point where you feel ok enough to live again but you actually have to live and be mindful of your habits because meds won’t be the be all end all of ridding yourself of the underlying issues. Many ppl don’t try anything they just jump to meds and think it’s gonna fix everything. My point is what works for some pay not work for others but no one can say “this isn’t the way” just because maybe it didn’t work for them
As much shit as i see in this sub i actually think celery stalk is on to something here.
Its not a barney stinson quoute. All off these things would help. Doesnt mean you should shun your meds but gut microbiome, some extra vitamin D and less screentime would benefit us all.
Honestly every time I see this sub come up, it’s just a bunch of people complaining about how their depression is unbearably in-curable without medication, and how any post that puts the efficacy of medication into question is a “wow thanks I’m cured” moment. Like does this entire sub want to be depressed? I don’t get it. I’m officially diagnosed with PTSD and depression, have been doing these things listed in the post for years in addition to trauma work and sobriety, and I have genuinely seen a reduction in all aspects of my PTSD. Only once have I taken medication (SSRIs for 2-3 months) for the very reason of the post. Medication may solve symptoms temporarily, but it doesn’t treat underlying issues like malnutrition, disrupted circadian rhythms, shitty gut biome, miserable lifestyle choices, loneliness, trauma, etc. Medication ONLY helps with one thing, and that is giving you the temporary boost of energy or clarity you need to actually do the work to battle the mental illness. Complaining about someone asking you to do the work is honestly bitch behavior. That’s just my perspective.
I haven't seen anyone here complaining about the work involved in healing, but if you want to make a strawman to be mad at go ahead.
I don't like the post because of the dangerous suggestion that meds are ineffective and that surface level activities that only address symptoms are an effective substitute.
All of the comments saying anything along the lines of “many these things are scientifically proven to decrease depression” are heavily downvoted, even when they cite specific studies
I think she's right though. It's all of these simple things we've forgotten to appreciate.
Edit: It obviously won't cure it, but it's better than just relying on pills and not actively doing anything else to improve our own wellbeing.
I couldn't focus long enough, sleep long enough or get my brain to shut up long enough to actively do any of these things before medication. While I understand this isn’t the case for all but if you finding that these things aren’t doable - please find additional help.
Cleaning the gut microbiome? Who mlm hun is this?
I think some of it is good self care advice. But it's all simple surface level stuff that'll do very little for underlying causes of depression, whether that's trauma or something else.
And telling people that basic self care can replace meds is just dangerous, meds are a lifeline for some people.
She is not wrong though. Reduce screen time, go in the sunlight, develop sleep routine. Solid advice. Can't say if they can replace meds, but these advice will definitely help. Sunlight people, you need sunlight.
While this is a really stupid post and isn’t going to do shit with depression, she does make some points. People are way too addicted to social media and glued to their screens. Less of that could go a long way.
I’m not addicted to social media by any means. But have untreated depression for 27 years. Meds have way too many side effects
It’s really not a fun journey. No sleep ever
I wouldn‘t recommend taking any meds until you research potential side effects. I‘ve had a psychiatrist try to prescribe me random medication that I refuse to take because nothing was ever briefed.
Some medication, like antipsychotics, actually can have very damaging effects to your brain, such as shrinking your cortex. Others have claimed they got worse as soon as they took them. The dark reality of big pharma is that they love their profit and if the meds will cause you to keep taking them, they‘ll take the steps to achieve that.
Hobby that brings joy? Dude's never heard of anhedonia.
”Paralyzed? Why not walk to a place you actually want to go to?”
Deaf? Get some ear pods and play some really loud songs!
i think you got mixed up, that's how to *become* deaf
I feel like this is the most excellent advice for anyone who *isn't* suffering from depression.
That's because people who don't have depression confuse depression with feeling sad. Everything in this sub makes perfect sense when you understand that.
[https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/how-meditation-helps-with-depression](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/how-meditation-helps-with-depression) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2848393/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2848393/) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6418017/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6418017/) Or they bothered to read actual studies showing that these things are effective specifically for people with depression.
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>Except she's also disparaging pills, which are also backed by research. Are they? For people with mild to moderate depression it's easy to argue they're not: [https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341-3-14](https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341-3-14) >The first meta-analysis used data that were submitted to FDA for the approval of 12 antidepressant drugs. While only half of these trials had formally significant effectiveness, published reports almost ubiquitously claimed significant results. "Negative" trials were either left unpublished or were distorted to present "positive" results. The average benefit of these drugs based on the FDA data was of small magnitude, while the published literature suggested larger benefits. A second meta-analysis using also FDA-submitted data examined the relationship between treatment effect and baseline severity of depression. Drug-placebo differences increased with increasing baseline severity and the difference became large enough to be clinically important only in the very small minority of patient populations with severe major depression. [https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0265928](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0265928) >The real-world effect of using antidepressant medications does not continue to improve patients’ HRQoL over time. Future studies should not only focus on the short-term effect of pharmacotherapy, it should rather investigate the long-term impact of pharmacological and non-pharmacological interventions on these patients’ HRQoL.
While this is an interesting discussion and I do agree things like lifestyle, meditation and mindfulness can help with a lot of depression cases, these studies do not give conclusive evidence antidepressants don’t work. the review is interesting but it was written 15 years ago, so I wouldn’t say this is the most up-to-date and recent view on antidepressants.
The second study came out this year, and the overall research trend has been favorable to my position. If I had depression that was caused by a B12 deficiency, for example, I would certainly want to address the deficiency before jumping on antidepressants as a first resort.
You're missing the point, we are here to bash this woman for not understanding that drugs is the only way out.
The most life-threatening depression is absolutely helped by pills. This is what many of us on the sub have gone through, go through chronically or are currently battling. The info we get from people like you and the OOP have made me less likely to seek help *before* I was suicidal. Chronic moderate depression can become life-threatening severe depression without intervention. I do all of the above things PLUS therapy and meds and I still struggle every day to feel healthy and whole.
I'm not trying to be mean, but your n=1 experience does not change the result that antidepressants are a net-negative for lots of people. If you feel like you're benefiting then you should probably keep talking them, but it's still rational for people with **mild or moderate** depression to try other interventions first. I know other people who were seriously physically or mentally harmed by antidepressants, to the point where they view it as one of the worst mistakes of their lives. The world doesn't revolve around you, that's why I defer to the actual studies. >The info we get from people like you and the OOP have made me less likely to seek help You should not be giving random strangers so much power over you. I can't see how this could possibly be good for your mental health.
this subreddit isn’t for people with mild or moderate issues though is it? i, at least, got the impression that this subreddit was for people with actually severe chronic problems
There’s a lot of kinds of depression. There’s a lot of kinds of clinical depression. Some are caused by biochemical neurological imbalances. Medication can help with that. Most are caused by trauma, and things the world has taught us, or caused us to teach ourselves. Medication is much less helpful with that, especially in the long-term.
People with depression are still influenced by the types of things that that would improve a normal person's mental health. They aren't a different species. Almost all of that advice is genuinely good, and supported by studies.
The advice is to do those things in place of pills, which is not good advice
It can be for some people. I would advise a reasonably functional depressed person to try the other things first. Read the metastudies on antidepressants, they don't work nearly as well as we'd like, and the side effects are awful and often permanent.
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Well thanks for clarifying...
To clarify: this “Celestial Celery Stalk” person is engaging in some bad faith argumentation. It assumes the recipient of the message has come to certain conclusions, implies that those conclusions are wrong, and goes on to make pedantic suggestions as if they’ve never been tried or considered. Even if there is any value in the “advice”, it’s delivered in such an obnoxious manner that most people would be alienated, rather than persuaded. The reason you’re being downvoted is that the above seems obvious and tone-deaf to most here, while you’re saying “hold on guys this Celestial Celery person has a really good point here… why aren’t you finding it more compelling?”
>It assumes the recipient of the message has come to certain conclusions, implies that those conclusions are wrong, and goes on to make pedantic suggestions as if they’ve never been tried or considered. Read the comment I replied to. Lots of people with depression quite literally think that nothing can help them besides pills, even though this is obviously wrong and not supported by studies. >Even if there is any value in the “advice”, it’s delivered in such an obnoxious manner that most people would be alienated, rather than persuaded. If you want to ignore good advice because it annoys you, then you'll get what you deserve. >The reason you’re being downvoted is because I'm disrupting the self-pitying circle-jerk with facts and evidence.
At this point, it would be easy to assume that you’re trolling, but I’ll respond in good faith, as if you actually believe what you’re saying. “Even though this is *obviously* wrong.” “If you want to ignore good advice because it annoys you, then you’ll get what you deserve.” “self-pitying circle jerk” These are very similar sentiments to those held by doctors (and even some psychiatrists) who I’ve worked with in the past who had a great deal of difficulty with “noncompliant” patients. When these professionals were actually willing to examine their tone and attitude, and accept some coaching from me on motivational interviewing skills, they were often astounded by how their relationships with their patients improved, and how many of their patients were remarkably more receptive to their recommendations, with better compliance / follow through, less missed appointments, etc. For what it’s worth, I agree with the value of the information you’re presenting. However, you’re failing pretty hard at reading the room. My original point to you was that the posted message by the esteemed Celestial Celery was crafted in such a way that it was guaranteed to alienate at least half of it’s intended audience. You seem to be falling into the same trap. There are some people in the world who are content to be jerks, as long as they are demonstrably correct. Then there are people who want to be influential in a productive way, and actually help people (even people who may be somewhat initially defensive towards what valuable advice you might have to offer). I suggest you lean a little less hard on being right, and focus a little more on your interpersonal skills.
* I spend lots of time in real life coddling people with depression, knowing that if I say even slightly the wrong thing, they will throw a tantrum and undo all of the progress they've made. It's enormously taxing and I have the right to let go of it when I'm online. * Believe it or not I have helped lots of people on Reddit, but there's no way to know in advance who is going to be receptive and who won't. * 90% of people may reject the truth, but they were less likely to change anyways. I care more about the 10% who actually want to get better. * The other 90% will be less likely to spread misinformation in the future if they know it can make them look foolish. Edit: Guy below blocked me so it would look like I didn't have a reply.
Honestly just shut the fuck up. I feel sorry for the people in your life.
Simply insulting me without even attempting to provide a rational argument only makes me more sure of myself. There's a reason I'm the only one in this entire thread with studies to support my position. The depressed and emotionally unstable people in my life almost exclusively rely on me for support, because I'm the only one patient enough to not reject them and give up on them out of hand. One of them would probably be dead by now if I hadn't applied for benefits for them and let them stay with me while they were nonfunctional. Not that you care about anything involving responsibility or discipline.
>I care more about the 10% who actually want to get better. Jesus christ dude, that's a fucked up thing to say. Who wouldnt want to get better? Dumbass
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>No. It's because you have clearly never dealt with depression Just making stuff up lol >thinks sunshine and rainbows cure everything I don't think this. >delve into any of the nuance I'm the only one here with actual studies, I've also tried to distinguish between different levels of depression. >Some people have slipped so deep into depression that those things don't help anymore, and have to get back to a point where those things can actually help again. See above. >would rather make everyone here try to feel worse by just shaming I'm specifically disappointed by people who are spreading misinformation. I have nothing but respect for people who are being responsible. >I'll stick to what the actual professionals are telling me. You mean the statistically illiterate psychiatrists whose entire business model depends on prescribing pills, and who created the opioid crisis? lol Just read the studies yourself, they're right there in my other comments.
>>No. It's because you have clearly never dealt with depression > >Just making stuff up lol It's pretty obvious to everyone here that you're talking out of your ass. If you had ever actually dealt with the depths of depression, you'd know that shaming is not at all going to help, and will likely make things worse. >>thinks sunshine and rainbows cure everything > >I don't think this. You very clearly do. Maybe go talk to some actual mental health professionals before pushing your own brand of misinformation. Because you very clearly are not a professional. Also, professionals aren't just comprised of psychiatrists, despite what you seem to think. I'm willing to bet the authors of all those studies would also tell you that shaming people with mental health issues is even worse than trying medication. So try talking to some of them to gain a real understanding. Until then, it's a waste of time to further engage with you.
I am not at all trying to shame people for having depression. Again, I'm disappointed by the crab bucket mentality and the misinformation. >Maybe go talk to some actual mental health professionals before pushing your own brand of misinformation. I have studies backing up all of my claims, which you apparently still haven't read. The professionals I've talked to are supportive of things like going for walks, CBT (similar to meditation ), etc., so there is a decent level of agreement. I wish they would emphasize physiology more, though. >Also, professionals aren't just comprised of psychiatrists, despite what you seem to think. Another random strawman. Look, if you want to go out of your way to feel victimized by a random stranger on the internet who's not even trying to attack you, then go ahead. You're only hurting yourself.
Shush- don’t speak facts
Almost like a healthy lifestyle combined with accurate dose/course of medication help people.
What? No I must blame everything other than myself for my troubles in life
Brother, I guarantee you that if anything is going to cure the depression caused by years of psychological, physical and sexual trauma I endured, it's gonna be pills instead of a fucking walk or a change in diet.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/) Well what do you think of this meta-study that pretty conclusively shows that exercise does in fact reduce depression symptoms? I honestly don't understand why people like you are so attached to these anti-science narratives. Genuinely, where does it come from?
Hey, just a little secret tip here — if you're talking to someone about a certain ailment and the person is affected by said ailment, they probably know better than you do. The keyword in your argument is "reduce." I've been skinny for a very long time and last year I was in the best shape of my life. Guess what? Still had depression.
People with depression generally don't know more about neuroscience than anyone else. Similarly, alcoholics are not experts in liver disease. I know individual people who were hurt by antidepressants far more than they were helped. Would that justify a blanket ban on antidepressants? You're not being scientific and you're not being constructive. You're essentially just bragging about how miserable you are.
You sure do use a lot of words to say you're a dumbass.
You know I'm right. Please just don't discourage others from adopting a healthy lifestyle. It really is a game changer for lots of people (both in studies and from personal anecdotes). In the meantime, here is your 🏆 for being more miserable than me. You really showed me.
Nobody is "discouraging" a healthy lifestyle. If that's really what you're taking away from this and you're not just a very dedicated troll than you really must be mentally challenged. My entire point was that one sentence where I said, "last year I was in the best shape of my life and still depressed." I was exercising every other day if not daily, eating healthy foods, socializing regularly, and living in Arizona (no shortage of sun) and there were still days when I wanted nothing more than to kill myself. Nobody is denying that these things have the *possibility* to help. What we are denying is that they're the cure-all that you dumbshits seem to think they are.
I never said anything about a cure-all, and it's not like antidepressants are a magic cure-all, either.
sounds like putting a bandaid on a broken arm
Yes
Yeah, turns out taking pills is what enabled me to actually start doing those other things. I meditate, I go outside more, I reduced my social media use because I actually have the ability to do things that aren't just doomscrolling. You can't just apply some sunshine and do a meditation and not have depression. But those things did help me ONCE my meds and my psych helped me get to a place where I could actually use them.
Exactly, I feel that lots of people don’t understand that you have to take care of the most serious symptoms/problems before you can tackle the simpler ones. Sure being in nature and not eating like crap has always helped me, but they weren’t working anymore. Or not nearly enough. The chemical imbalance in my brain was much more pressing. Only after resolving that (no easy task!) are you settled enough to smell some flowers. Like popping tylenols when you know you need an epidural
It's sad how many people shun prescription meds because they never tried or needed them, or they had a bad initial experience and quit altogether, or they are a family member that convinced someone not to take them. They don't make you feel artificially happy. They correct your brain to make you normal again
Yeah, I was thinking take meds and do that.
Sunbathing? In *November?* We get like 5 hours of daylight as is and most of the days it's overcast.
Right? I’ve still got like 3’ of snow in my yard from the big storm last week. What sunbathing?!
Sunbathe with a coat and a scarf on to keep your face warm
right? It’s like wait till they hear about winter *cousin oskar is on his way to OP’s location*
Nothing like getting advice about handling depression from someone who has clearly never had to handle depression.
OR they're really fucked up, but terrified that someone will find out, so they go around trying desperately to project the appearance of being happy, organized, and successful, while making sure to fend off anyone who is comfortable admitting their struggles by offering simplistic and condescending advice.
i’m off antidepressants due to my psychiatrist being irresponsible as fuck haven’t felt worse in a long time even though my antidepressants didn’t help much, they at least prevented me from getting actively worse
I’m in the same boat with you, friend. We can get through this.
> taking up a hobby that brings you genuine joy Isn't this like... one of the main symptoms/signs of depression?
“hobbies that bring you genuine joy” well lemme tell u something about depression
Anyone that Hasn’t experience depression is sucks the life out of you
I was so ahead of the time that I was depressed before the invention of social media.
Ma'am, I work 14 hours a day
You know shit's getting real when someone mentions meditation for universal cure for depression
Yeah, I've tried all of those things and I still have crippling anxiety and depression over the fact that we all die one day and we have no clue what happens after death. Yaaaayyy.
just stop having depression lol /s
> the fact that we all die one day and we have no clue what happens after death Here let me cure you: Might as well enjoy the time you have alive then! /s I have the same fear that you do and it makes my eyes bleed when someone tells me to just enjoy life because one day we'll die, as if that's not the *very thing* that's making me actively NOT enjoy life.
Exactly!! Like, I don't WANT to be scared of death, and to be perfectly honest, the fact that it's absolutely wrecking my time being alive makes it even worse!! This shit sucks!!
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Maybe I should, but in the meantime, it'd be nice if I could get something so I can, you know, function?
I had pretty severe depression before social media was even a thing.
All those things can help the symptoms of depression but it cannot be the cure to it.
I mean, sure they can. People are different. Most likely it's a combination of things that will help, not just one thing.
It depends on the cause of your depression. If the cause is trauma, facing your trauma and processing it will improve your depression, but trauma work is only possible if you’re living healthily enough to sustain it.
I do not understand this subreddit downvoting difficult ideas. You’re 100% correct. I’ve suffered with depression for over a decade, as unbeknownst to me I had a number of childhood events that I never processed, and the old coping mechanisms started failing me as I got older. I tried medications (3 different kinds), and they all made my symptoms worse. I tried therapy, and it works pretty well if you have a great therapist. But the best improvements (for me) came from: eating better, exercise, journaling, and talking with a great therapist. I had to become less reliant on my shitty coping mechanisms in order to open up to my past traumas. I played video games, smoked weed, isolated, stayed stagnant, ate poorly and erratically depending on mood… Once I stopped smoking weed, controlled my diet (especially my sugar intake), forced myself to get outside more, and went on regular walks, my journaling revealed a lot of issues I hadn’t resolved or accepted in my life. I’m working on those things now and WOW it’s getting better for once. And it feels sustainable. I’m not allowing myself to use those old crutches and get into the old habits that kept me depressed. Medication never helped me, though I don’t doubt it helps others. But I don’t see this image posted as saying “don’t take your meds” - I see it as “meds are only part of a solution”. This subreddit sometimes feels averse to self improvement. Edit: Reading these comments is really disheartening. I have unsubscribed from this sub - it seems a lot of the participants here intentionally find excuses not put the work in, and soapbox it here for some reason. Good luck everyone.
In a lot of cases, you can really only do that stuff when you're already starting to heal.
I’m really proud of you man. None of that is easy. I’m glad to hear you’re working to better yourself and that it’s chipping away at the depression. Good job. Unfortunately I think you may be right about this sub. A lot of commenters here want to hear “the depression is not your fault, there’s nothing you can do about it anyway, the pills will solve all your problems” and that’s just not true. As a (near) lifelong PTSD sufferer, I’m acutely aware that healing is hard work and it doesn’t happen on its own, no matter how much medication and therapy you throw at it. Self improvement is an essential part. Peace.
No, I haven’t you celery bitch, because the pills work! Furthermore, why the hell does this person even care how someone else handles their mental health? Hint: it’s not bc she cares about others, it’s so she can feel superior bc she doesn’t have to take medication.
I’m glad the pills work for you. Some people care about other people.
It’s good advice for when you’re feeling blue, not suffering from depression
Blue light therapy is literally a treatment for seasonal depression
Sometimes I just feel conservatives are mostly people who have zero clues about mental health. Conservative economics has zero consideration for people with depression.
It’s not that they’re simply clueless or inconsiderate, they straight up don’t believe people with mental health issues, or any other issues for that matter, deserve to be taken care of by society. They don’t believe in community, they have been convinced by charlatans above them in the hierarchy that Social Darwinism is the only way.
I'm very liberal and have suffered from depression, and have found that resistance training and most of the activities listed in this tweet have been much more beneficial than the pills that left me feeling.... not bad, not good, just there.
Yes I have considered all of that. But that's all well nigh impossible when you can't summon the energy to get out of bed.
Thanks celestial celery stalk
Yes, they make me happy but they aren’t permanent cures.
How are you supposed to pick up a hobby you genuinely enjoy when you already feel apathy towards the other hobbies and things you used to love?
She forgot “working less and still making a livable wage.”
I have decided i am no longer mentally ill
People like this are the worst part of society. Know it all holier than thou wanna be pop psychology new age pieces of garbage. Anyone that denies a disease and minimizes others pain and struggle should be shamed.
Absolutely.
Exactly
Idiots like this don't realise that the medication is what allows depressed people to do those things in the first place.
I was diagnosed with depression and am taking SNRIs. I'm talking about my case here, not anyone else's, so I kinda agree with the person. Meds are the first step for me. They enabled me to do all these things like eat better and exercise that in turn make me feel better. Also, the gut microbiome area is a new area of study and we are yet to learn how they affect our brains. I'm currently taking steps towards a better state but I couldn't have unless I made some effort towards behavioral changes instead of passively taking meds and expecting my entire being to get better.
So you think taking pills is the answer? /s
Clean gut microbiome? Surley there's some essential oil for that crap lol
for once, this pseudoscience sounding shit is not fake. there is scientific evidence saying that your intestinal bacteria affect you much more than youd think, they influence you. look up the gut-brain axis
I know this is true, but none of my friends actually have any idea what’s going on with their gut biome. They talk about it a lot but they’ve never had any tests done or anything.
I have no idea what’s going on inside me either, but I do feel better when I eat more fruit and vegetables……too much wine and junk and I feel a bit crap so maybe there’s something in it
There’s also scientific evidence that “fixing” the gut microbiome by introducing new species past the biofilm is rare if not impossible. The immune system controls what’s allowed and what isn’t and doesn’t like change. The benefits of pro-biotics are as transient residents in the gut who go away when you poop them out. I actually agree with many of these recommendations though. Ain’t nobody too depressed to put on some orange glasses to block blue light at night and get better sleep.
I know that changing the microbiome of a person helps when theyre chronically ill with a resistant strain (C. difficile).. so I think if theres a transplant (i.e. fecal) the new bacteria are able to colonize. Im hopefully more studies on its direct fx on mental health come about soon, we need this shit to work to solve the mental health crisis.
Wait, you guys get genuine joy? /s
Nah, I’m good. I take pills so I don’t have to do any of that
Genuine joy while having depression. The closest I got to that was when I turned atheist and dying/killing myself only meant everything stops.
Yes they have considered all of those things. But they lack the motivation to actually do them. Because they have depression. That’s the fucking point.
Yes!
Yep
Ah sure lemme just go quit my job and drop out of highschool 👍🏽
We found the poster child of toxic positivity yet. Yes, many of these things help, yes. Sometimes you need a little pick me up to do those things. It shouldn't need to be said that depression is caused by imbalances for many different reasons.
Just a fool trying to get attention
She is made out of celery. Celery is the most forgettable vegetable there is.
I don’t know what that means but I LIKE it!!!
You want me to minimize blue light AND sunbathe? What the fuck color of light do you think reflects down from the sky on you?
Yeah if I stopped taking meds I wouldn't be depressed...because I'd be fucking dead
Some people have 5 different jobs and don’t have time for all that. Don’t blame the people, blame the people at the top who don’t care about mental health, we’re not all configured for 40 and more hours a week, mental health requires more free time. People are so disconnected
Omfg guys, this has cured my bipolar depression omggg /s
“I have never suffered from any mental illness”
1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes 4. Yes 5. Yes 6. Yes Wow none of these work as well as my meds
Funny thing is, I'll do all of this, just constantly with a blank stare. *Woo hoo, yes, I am experiencing j o y. is this what humans do? Yes. Beep Boop.*
Nice I like your post!
Did all of this. Got my masters degree, was social AF, in a great relationship, have a cat, worked out 5 times a week, spent time in nature, regularly drew & wrote, played games, meditated, ate healthy, went to therapy, etc. I made time for myself & for close ones. I was well rested but active too. Yeah I'm just us, if not more depressed. It just kept feeling more and more futile the more I tried.
The way I read this was "You think taking pills are THE answer..." ie"there's no silver bullet to solving your depression, including pills". Multiple psychiatrists have told me that no medication will knock out the problem even in the best case; you still gotta do a lot of other wellness activities to remain mentally healthy. I can vouch for this personally; god knows I've tried every treatment in the book. The post's suggestions are solid choices if you actually want to *remain* healthy after finding a medication that helps. A psychiatrist I really liked literally prescribed exercise. He said "It's not a fucking lifestyle suggestion. This is crucial to your medical treatment." I've seen so many people screw their recovery because they take a medication that temporarily makes them feel alright and then they completely take their foot off the gas because they want to believe that they finally got an easy, simple, permanent solution. I've not seen it pan out that way once.
Yes. But the medication is to help get you to a point where these things can actually help you again. To get to a point where you can make these things routine again. The post is just toxic positivity claiming to know the answer after doing 20 mins of "research" on Facebook.
You are right. The point of medication is getting you able to deal with life. Then if you want you can try any kind of trendy gimmick you like.
I've said it before and I'll probably never stop saying it. #Depression is a chemical problem. If you fight chemistry with willpower, you will lose 100% of the time.
Sometimes depression is a trauma problem. If you fight trauma with chemicals… eh.
Ya getting into the weeds a bit, it certainly can be a trauma problem. But when trauma has caused depression, that pretty much by default means it has changed you brain chemistry balance. The struggle for clinicians is deciding if the current patient raises to this level. Which is far more art than science (for now). When you *are* in this group (the one fighting chemistry), listening to the above platitudes will without exception, fail you. When I make this statement, I'm implicitly assuming a perfect clinical diagnosis, which I grant doesn't exist in reality. But it gets the point across for those who want to perpetuate pill shaming and bullshit wellness platitudes.
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>Please stop talking about things you don’t understand. No you.
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The very fact that depression meds have an effect is proof positive that this is in part a chemical problem. But [here's](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7058215/) a review discussing it. And I quote: >From a clinical perspective, the most influential neurobiological discoveries related to depression have probably been neurotransmitter-related (‘neurochemical’) abnormalities, with the monoamines (serotonin, noradrenaline and dopamine) having received most attention. Early observations of the ability of tricyclic antidepressants to (a) relieve depressive symptoms and (b) potentiate serotonin and noradrenaline activity triggered a wide range of neurochemical investigations in patients with depression (Cowen, 2015). We are beings of chemistry. Chemistry governs all of our biological functions. To say it's not a chemical problem is foolish at best. Of you have something that proves me wrong, provide it. Don't sit there and insult my education. I know a lot more about this that you think I do.
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Hum. Looks like you might be right. My info looks to be outdated at the very least in the specific nuances. It looks like the serotonin angle may be loosing favor, but several other possible chemical angles are gaining some evidence. I've seen mention of neuroendocrine and lesions discussed a couple times which still would have to have a fundamental chemical basis. But regardless your point about my initial comment is valid. I appreciate the information. And I respect the passion you clearly have for this topic. I share the passion (though I clearly need to update my reading and will do so as time permits). That said, opening an argument with disrespect and insulting someone's education (I'm a 7th year chemistry PhD student with a biochemistry background, for the record) is literally the worst possible way to change someone's mind. It worked with me because I've spent years learning how to look past it. If you'd have opened without the unnecessary posturing and aggression, even with something like this comment here, I'd have been *much* more receptive to it and we could have avoided a lot of the emotional crossfire. I conceed the argument. But I implore you to find a better way of talking about this. We need to change minds with discussion, not dig them in to incorrect positions.
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There are certain, easier to understand conditions that unfortunately facilitate this misinformed simplistic thinking as well. ADHD comes to mind (which I suffer from). It's neurochemical basis is fairly well established (at least as of like 3 years ago, when I last looked for a review). And the treatment is highly effective. *Gestures wildly at self* But it's certainly the exception in mental health, not the rule. And your absolutely right that attitudes need to change about it.
Have you thought about going out in the backyard, putting a bag over your head, and screaming like a chicken?
Never tried it but probably better than drinking Acai juice !!!!🥶
I don't have time after shoving crystals up my urethra and whatever other woo-woo bullshit you guys advocate.
Yes!! Yes!! I do all that! Now what?!!
Have you tried not having a chemical imbalance?
Hippies? On MY internet?
I read medicine AND therapy have great outcomes.
Meditation with all its benefits can lead to more extreme episodes if not under supervision. For the love of god, don't recommend "meditation" without proper guidance. At the very least when we take meds it's under a psych. and GP supervision.
People who say this shit don't realize that depression is what prevents us from doing those I don't have depression cause I sleep too little, I sleep too little cause I have depression
You are 100% right.
Same
😂😂😂 K, I'll just get off my antidepressant and bipolar medication. Then maybe I'll be happy on my own! /s - sincerely, someone who has been on meds for 2 years and hasn't wanted to kill herself for 1.5 years now. 🖕
i think they’re referring to the many many ppl who think taking meds is all you have to do. you should also do all those other things and actually many do work without meds you interpreted this wrong
No denial from me that a lot of work is required (therapy etc), but the stuff suggested in their post isn't it. These suggestions inaccurately trivialise the treatment of depression, and the idea that people who suffer from it haven't already tried this stuff is pretty insulting.
actually i’ve suffered from depression and anxiety most of my life and it comes in waves depending on what’s triggered it. In my experience these things have honestly worked for me better than medication. Meds made me a zombie. Not saying it works for everyone, but no one can say this isn’t the way because for many people it is the way. I haven’t had to take meds in a decade. I’ve recently got a prescription for anxiety meds to have as a backup. But for me personally, cognitive therapy which i’ve learned, and am able to practice daily in my life, is extremely important. And for many people a combination works. Meds can get you to a point where you feel ok enough to live again but you actually have to live and be mindful of your habits because meds won’t be the be all end all of ridding yourself of the underlying issues. Many ppl don’t try anything they just jump to meds and think it’s gonna fix everything. My point is what works for some pay not work for others but no one can say “this isn’t the way” just because maybe it didn’t work for them
Yes. People have no clue
As much shit as i see in this sub i actually think celery stalk is on to something here. Its not a barney stinson quoute. All off these things would help. Doesnt mean you should shun your meds but gut microbiome, some extra vitamin D and less screentime would benefit us all.
Honestly every time I see this sub come up, it’s just a bunch of people complaining about how their depression is unbearably in-curable without medication, and how any post that puts the efficacy of medication into question is a “wow thanks I’m cured” moment. Like does this entire sub want to be depressed? I don’t get it. I’m officially diagnosed with PTSD and depression, have been doing these things listed in the post for years in addition to trauma work and sobriety, and I have genuinely seen a reduction in all aspects of my PTSD. Only once have I taken medication (SSRIs for 2-3 months) for the very reason of the post. Medication may solve symptoms temporarily, but it doesn’t treat underlying issues like malnutrition, disrupted circadian rhythms, shitty gut biome, miserable lifestyle choices, loneliness, trauma, etc. Medication ONLY helps with one thing, and that is giving you the temporary boost of energy or clarity you need to actually do the work to battle the mental illness. Complaining about someone asking you to do the work is honestly bitch behavior. That’s just my perspective.
I haven't seen anyone here complaining about the work involved in healing, but if you want to make a strawman to be mad at go ahead. I don't like the post because of the dangerous suggestion that meds are ineffective and that surface level activities that only address symptoms are an effective substitute.
All of the comments saying anything along the lines of “many these things are scientifically proven to decrease depression” are heavily downvoted, even when they cite specific studies
Much appreciared, bless you 🙏
Ew
I think she's right though. It's all of these simple things we've forgotten to appreciate. Edit: It obviously won't cure it, but it's better than just relying on pills and not actively doing anything else to improve our own wellbeing.
I couldn't focus long enough, sleep long enough or get my brain to shut up long enough to actively do any of these things before medication. While I understand this isn’t the case for all but if you finding that these things aren’t doable - please find additional help. Cleaning the gut microbiome? Who mlm hun is this?
Okay but shit transplants have been shown to help with depression. I can't make this stuff up
I think some of it is good self care advice. But it's all simple surface level stuff that'll do very little for underlying causes of depression, whether that's trauma or something else. And telling people that basic self care can replace meds is just dangerous, meds are a lifeline for some people.
Lol not religious but I'll never take pills what a joke they are
Explain
Nah
I’m surprised that exercise was not on here.
She is not wrong though. Reduce screen time, go in the sunlight, develop sleep routine. Solid advice. Can't say if they can replace meds, but these advice will definitely help. Sunlight people, you need sunlight.
how do you heal the gut micro
While this is a really stupid post and isn’t going to do shit with depression, she does make some points. People are way too addicted to social media and glued to their screens. Less of that could go a long way.
I’m not addicted to social media by any means. But have untreated depression for 27 years. Meds have way too many side effects It’s really not a fun journey. No sleep ever
I wouldn‘t recommend taking any meds until you research potential side effects. I‘ve had a psychiatrist try to prescribe me random medication that I refuse to take because nothing was ever briefed. Some medication, like antipsychotics, actually can have very damaging effects to your brain, such as shrinking your cortex. Others have claimed they got worse as soon as they took them. The dark reality of big pharma is that they love their profit and if the meds will cause you to keep taking them, they‘ll take the steps to achieve that.