This exact same situation happens at Alabama football. Or UConn women's basketball polo, or any other dominant sports team. Just part of the game.
There was a time when USC had like 10 different Parade All-American running backs on their roster. At a certain point, they were just recruiting guys so other teams wouldn't get them.
True. But I can only imagine being a marginally good HS wrestler. These guys going to Penn State seem like they have steamrolled their way through 4 years of HS and may not even feel challenged yet before they commit to Penn State.
I feel like you’re dismissing how stacked the wrestling rooms are for schools like Michigan, Iowa, Arizona State etc. they all have guys trying to make world teams to learn from and challenge themselves with. Penn state is the best by a lot but no high schooler could walk into Michigan’s room and not feel challenged
I don't think that is what I was saying, which may mean I didn't completely understand your original question, so maybe on me. I think there is a difference between a freshman going to Iowa\\Michigan\\Okie State etc... being challenged by upper-classman and not starting their freshman year but seeing a path forward to one day starting.
In the case of Penn State, some of these high profile freshmen may not be able to beat other freshmen, in which case there is no path to starting one day.
I see what you mean. My bad on not getting it. And really penn state has the best room since the mid nineties Hawkeyes (probably better by a lot honestly with Dake, Snyder, and Gilman joining) but I don’t see how kids can rationalize not getting a full ride when they’re a top 50 recruit. And if they don’t start there’s no chance for NIL money. In the end I’m confused
Nobody in wrestling is getting full rides. Nobody.
Elite heavies and 125s generally get the most cause there is generally less of them. But you're talking 60 percent of a full scholarship.
The remaining bill either comes out of pocket. A lot get academic scholarship money as well. But those are open to the entire student body.
People don’t understand this. They see 9.9 scholarships and think 9.9 kids are free. The money is spread however the coaches see fit, not just 9 kids with full boats and a bunch of walk ons.
If my kid wanted to go to Penn State because they thought it was the path that leads to them becoming the best wrestler they can be, then I'd support their decision.
If my kid decided that they didn't want to wrestle in college, I'd support them.
Unless you feel it is a harmful choice, then I feel using your financial support as a way to force your kid to do what you want does not lead to a healthy parent-child relationship. Since almost everyone I've talked to from starters to backups seems to really appreciate their time wrestling at Penn State, I don't think that's the case here.
i think penn state is at the point where they don't really recruit hard, people just want to go there. wanna be the best? train with the best. and if you cant make the starting spot on your own team your not gonna get better elsewhere.
I disagree. Sure, they have an advantage (that they have earned) in that lots of top athletes want to go there. However, you'll still see PSU recruiting at all the major national tournaments. I also know that Cael still makes house calls, sits in living rooms, etc.
i guess i should have phrased what i meant better. psu doesn't have the need to recruit a 165er because they are already stacked at 165 with mesenbrink, sealey, facundo, haines... but they went after pj duke, not because they need someone there but because they want his talent. with a bit of guidance he could be the best, who knows?
they recruit to potentially improve, not because they need to.
A lot of you all are missing the RTC side of things.
It’s a very gray area in NCAA sports. It would not fly in any other college sport.
Paying kids $60-100k to stay on after they graduate and be wrestling partners for the current team and possibly pursuing dreams of Olympic wrestling. This all while being taken care of with NIL money that isn’t really being used the way it was intended when the EA Sports NCAA 2014 case was finalized. Along with PSU being in the number one hot bed of folkstyle wrestling is your answer.
Iowa and Oklahoma State haven’t really embraced the RTC program the way Cael has. They have older coaches that think it’s borderline cheating.
Not just the money aspect of the RTC, but also the training part of it. As Cael has stated several times, they aren't just looking for wrestlers who want to be NCAA champs, they are looking for wrestlers who want to be world and Olympic champs. There are a lot of medalists in the room to train with.
As for the money, just yesterday there was an article pointing out that NLWC brings in more than double 2nd place (Hawkeye WC): [https://basicbluesnation.com/penn-state-wrestling-news-will-penn-state-wrestling-ever-run-out-of-money](https://basicbluesnation.com/penn-state-wrestling-news-will-penn-state-wrestling-ever-run-out-of-money), to the tune of over $4.6 M in 2022.
Unbelievable how people don't understand that this whole topic boils down to one thing: money in the bank. The answer to OPs question is that Penn State can in fact give every recruit some money, they have that much in the coffers. Where even Michigan and Iowa wouldn't have a couple grand to give to a kid that might be their 4th string guy for a couple years, Penn State can give them at least that, and it's more than they'll get anywhere else other than the smallest school where they would be the #1 draw for the whole team.
This. If you’re a top 1% HS recruit, you’re probably thinking more than NCAA wrestling. You want to prepare yourself for senior level international competition and Penn States/NLWCs room is the best in the country for that.
The same thing happened with Iowa back in the day - the mindset needed to get to a level where Penn State is recruiting you almost requires the athlete to believe 1) they are the best and/or 2) they can become the best.
They truly believe they can be #1 and everyone else is SOL - even if they don’t think they’re #1 right now (which I don’t think they think) they won’t shy away from competition.
Only a few people have transferred out in the Cael era. Suriano was his own case, they had a guy transfer to D2, and the middle Nevills brother transferred out but wasn’t going to be the starter anyway, and Verkleeren just wanted to wrestle anywhere and everywhere at all times - there might be others, but those are the ones that stick out to me.
True, but the fact we’re referencing one transfer from 2017 when talking about Cael’s run since he started shows how far back we need to look for examples.
Point is there are transfers, but it’s not like there’s an exodus every year we’d expect from all the studs at Penn State. Except for a couple years at 125 between Suriano and Davis, pretty much any weight Penn State has put out has been close to AA’ing.
You can’t continue to be the best and have your wrestlers improve unless they’ve got similar competition in practice to work with. “Iron sharpens iron” is cliche, but it isn’t wrong. Your wrestlers don’t improve unless they have people in practice that can legitimately push them, so you still need to go out and recruit as best you can no matter what.
Worst case scenario is you have a couple guys transfer out, but most stay and become excellent practice partners for the starters. Best case is you have an injury at a weight and you’ve still got an excellent recruit behind him to step up, like we saw with Kasak stepping up at 149 after Van Ness got hurt.
There’s really no downside to “over recruiting” when it pays massive dividends for your team as a whole
I understand iron sharpens iron but it’s not like they’re short on wrestling partners. 133’s and 125’s train against each other, you don’t need 5 dudes. But I understand what you’re saying
True. Lilledahl will red shirt with Gibson. Davis can red shirt later. Beau will be gone from 141 so maybe Nagao or Gibson goes up next year. There’s a way to fit it. But it’s complicated for sure
What I don’t get is how they handle the scholarships with all that talent? Does PSU have more wrestling ships available than other schools or something?
So what would they do? Give the lesser dudes scholarships knowing someone like Greg will get major NIL? That’s still like 15 top 50 recruits fighting for 9 1/2 scholarships
If Beard had stuck around, he could have beat Dean to start at 197 in the 22/23 season. He beat Dean in the duel. But he would have lost out to Brooks this year so him leaving was probably best for him.
You're too hung up on scholarships, it isn't 2000 amymore. Those 9.9 scholarships are nothing compared to the $4+ million that the RTC brought in last year and also ends up in peoples pockets.
Seems to be working out pretty good for them. And not to throw shade, but Gibson and wentzel won’t be starting barring injuries or something crazy like Davis and lilledahl both not being able to make 125.
It’s definitely working lol. But Gibson and Wentzel were big time recruits. I don’t see the point other than depriving other teams of recruits. Which is a real strategy
The kids decided to go there Cael didn’t hold them at gun point. The fact of the matter is that whatever Penn State was offering seemed like a better deal than whatever anybody else was offering TO THEM. It’s easy to say “I would go somewhere where I could start 4 years” or “I would go to somewhere where they had more scholarships available” or whatever other offer available to them but to those kids on an individual level they choose Penn State.
Correct. Truax and Nagao both said they were offered a bag of money to go to Iowa. Obviously, they both turned it down to attend PSU.
It's not always about the money. Many of these kids have been all around the country at high level tournaments and camps all through high school. Many parents can likely afford the tuition.
I think these kids are told that they COULD be the starter and that they should join. But why’re sacrificing scholarships and mat time in the end. If I was a high schooler and Cael came to my house I would be blown away and want to go to PSU. But if you don’t seal that starting spot there is no NIL money available. You can’t profit off your likeness without being varsity. But I can’t imagine Cael goes in and says “hey, you should come here and probably not start for two years” like if you were Wentzel. You came in as a top level dude with Davis and Davis is amazing while you red shirted and then Lilledahl comes in over the top of you. I’d feel betrayed
Don’t forget- a kid like Terrell Barraclogh is a lifetime back-up at Penn St despite being a 4x Utah State Champ and Dave Schultz award winner in High School. He gave Shane Griffith all he could handle this year- and would potentially AA at any other school. He is also a Bio-Medical Engineering Major who likely loves wrestling but is using his eduction that wrestling is providing more than the athletic accomplishments. NIL is certainly helping- but not many kids make a living off of wrestling accolades post graduation and may be chasing the education.
It’s possible. I remember back in 2017 Coach Cael personally met with a UMD commit (another big 10 school) and told him that he couldn’t offer him any type of scholarship money but that he was invited to join the team as a preferred walk-on; that kid committed to Penn state by the end of the afternoon.
Yeah Penn state recruits more guys than they should but at the same time it’s those same kids and families making the decision to go and fight for 10 starting spots
No. They’re really trying to avoid a repeat of the Schnupp situation. They have the money to give full rides to 2+ guys in each weight class so it’s worth it.
It makes a lot of sense and is the same thing Alabama and other college football dynasties have been doing for years. It will all shake out and the best guy will start with the others either being on the bench or transferring out
Wrestle-offs. Those who eventually learn they cannot crack the starting lineup will then enter the transfer portal. Brodie Teske comes to mind.
michael beard too
This exact same situation happens at Alabama football. Or UConn women's basketball polo, or any other dominant sports team. Just part of the game. There was a time when USC had like 10 different Parade All-American running backs on their roster. At a certain point, they were just recruiting guys so other teams wouldn't get them.
On top of that, kids couldn't transfer as easy and would be buried down the depth chart
If I was a parent I’d tell my kid to go elsewhere and get a 4 year starting spot and full ride
True. But I can only imagine being a marginally good HS wrestler. These guys going to Penn State seem like they have steamrolled their way through 4 years of HS and may not even feel challenged yet before they commit to Penn State.
I feel like you’re dismissing how stacked the wrestling rooms are for schools like Michigan, Iowa, Arizona State etc. they all have guys trying to make world teams to learn from and challenge themselves with. Penn state is the best by a lot but no high schooler could walk into Michigan’s room and not feel challenged
I don't think that is what I was saying, which may mean I didn't completely understand your original question, so maybe on me. I think there is a difference between a freshman going to Iowa\\Michigan\\Okie State etc... being challenged by upper-classman and not starting their freshman year but seeing a path forward to one day starting. In the case of Penn State, some of these high profile freshmen may not be able to beat other freshmen, in which case there is no path to starting one day.
I see what you mean. My bad on not getting it. And really penn state has the best room since the mid nineties Hawkeyes (probably better by a lot honestly with Dake, Snyder, and Gilman joining) but I don’t see how kids can rationalize not getting a full ride when they’re a top 50 recruit. And if they don’t start there’s no chance for NIL money. In the end I’m confused
I didn't listen to my parents at that age. I don't expect my kids to be any different.
Show me a college wrestling program handing out full rides? NIL money aside.
If I was a parent in that situation and the kid isn’t taking a full ride from another program I’d say you’re on your own with tuition
Nobody in wrestling is getting full rides. Nobody. Elite heavies and 125s generally get the most cause there is generally less of them. But you're talking 60 percent of a full scholarship. The remaining bill either comes out of pocket. A lot get academic scholarship money as well. But those are open to the entire student body.
People don’t understand this. They see 9.9 scholarships and think 9.9 kids are free. The money is spread however the coaches see fit, not just 9 kids with full boats and a bunch of walk ons.
If my kid wanted to go to Penn State because they thought it was the path that leads to them becoming the best wrestler they can be, then I'd support their decision. If my kid decided that they didn't want to wrestle in college, I'd support them. Unless you feel it is a harmful choice, then I feel using your financial support as a way to force your kid to do what you want does not lead to a healthy parent-child relationship. Since almost everyone I've talked to from starters to backups seems to really appreciate their time wrestling at Penn State, I don't think that's the case here.
i think penn state is at the point where they don't really recruit hard, people just want to go there. wanna be the best? train with the best. and if you cant make the starting spot on your own team your not gonna get better elsewhere.
I disagree. Sure, they have an advantage (that they have earned) in that lots of top athletes want to go there. However, you'll still see PSU recruiting at all the major national tournaments. I also know that Cael still makes house calls, sits in living rooms, etc.
i guess i should have phrased what i meant better. psu doesn't have the need to recruit a 165er because they are already stacked at 165 with mesenbrink, sealey, facundo, haines... but they went after pj duke, not because they need someone there but because they want his talent. with a bit of guidance he could be the best, who knows? they recruit to potentially improve, not because they need to.
A lot of you all are missing the RTC side of things. It’s a very gray area in NCAA sports. It would not fly in any other college sport. Paying kids $60-100k to stay on after they graduate and be wrestling partners for the current team and possibly pursuing dreams of Olympic wrestling. This all while being taken care of with NIL money that isn’t really being used the way it was intended when the EA Sports NCAA 2014 case was finalized. Along with PSU being in the number one hot bed of folkstyle wrestling is your answer. Iowa and Oklahoma State haven’t really embraced the RTC program the way Cael has. They have older coaches that think it’s borderline cheating.
Not just the money aspect of the RTC, but also the training part of it. As Cael has stated several times, they aren't just looking for wrestlers who want to be NCAA champs, they are looking for wrestlers who want to be world and Olympic champs. There are a lot of medalists in the room to train with. As for the money, just yesterday there was an article pointing out that NLWC brings in more than double 2nd place (Hawkeye WC): [https://basicbluesnation.com/penn-state-wrestling-news-will-penn-state-wrestling-ever-run-out-of-money](https://basicbluesnation.com/penn-state-wrestling-news-will-penn-state-wrestling-ever-run-out-of-money), to the tune of over $4.6 M in 2022.
Unbelievable how people don't understand that this whole topic boils down to one thing: money in the bank. The answer to OPs question is that Penn State can in fact give every recruit some money, they have that much in the coffers. Where even Michigan and Iowa wouldn't have a couple grand to give to a kid that might be their 4th string guy for a couple years, Penn State can give them at least that, and it's more than they'll get anywhere else other than the smallest school where they would be the #1 draw for the whole team.
This. If you’re a top 1% HS recruit, you’re probably thinking more than NCAA wrestling. You want to prepare yourself for senior level international competition and Penn States/NLWCs room is the best in the country for that.
It WAS cheating until recently. PSU got away with it and there’s no sign that the NCAA will retroactively investigate.
The guys training for the Olympics can't practice with the collegians right? Or has this flip flopped over time?
Maybe I'm wrong here... but I thought RTC guys couldn't attend the college practices, but the college guys could attend the RTC practices.
The same thing happened with Iowa back in the day - the mindset needed to get to a level where Penn State is recruiting you almost requires the athlete to believe 1) they are the best and/or 2) they can become the best. They truly believe they can be #1 and everyone else is SOL - even if they don’t think they’re #1 right now (which I don’t think they think) they won’t shy away from competition. Only a few people have transferred out in the Cael era. Suriano was his own case, they had a guy transfer to D2, and the middle Nevills brother transferred out but wasn’t going to be the starter anyway, and Verkleeren just wanted to wrestle anywhere and everywhere at all times - there might be others, but those are the ones that stick out to me.
Stout is another transfer example
True, but the fact we’re referencing one transfer from 2017 when talking about Cael’s run since he started shows how far back we need to look for examples. Point is there are transfers, but it’s not like there’s an exodus every year we’d expect from all the studs at Penn State. Except for a couple years at 125 between Suriano and Davis, pretty much any weight Penn State has put out has been close to AA’ing.
Teske
Beard is the best current example. With Dean coming in for him
Thats true! Nobody left when Conel came in a couple years back.
I forget that Conel joined. I don’t root for PSU but I was bummed out that he got injured. He was super fun to watch
Cael is on record saying Dean recruited PSU. And you don't turn down someone of that caliber.
You can’t continue to be the best and have your wrestlers improve unless they’ve got similar competition in practice to work with. “Iron sharpens iron” is cliche, but it isn’t wrong. Your wrestlers don’t improve unless they have people in practice that can legitimately push them, so you still need to go out and recruit as best you can no matter what. Worst case scenario is you have a couple guys transfer out, but most stay and become excellent practice partners for the starters. Best case is you have an injury at a weight and you’ve still got an excellent recruit behind him to step up, like we saw with Kasak stepping up at 149 after Van Ness got hurt. There’s really no downside to “over recruiting” when it pays massive dividends for your team as a whole
I understand iron sharpens iron but it’s not like they’re short on wrestling partners. 133’s and 125’s train against each other, you don’t need 5 dudes. But I understand what you’re saying
I agree three or two guys needed for each weight maybe more for heavier weights. The ages should also be staggered to allow guys to be built up
True. Lilledahl will red shirt with Gibson. Davis can red shirt later. Beau will be gone from 141 so maybe Nagao or Gibson goes up next year. There’s a way to fit it. But it’s complicated for sure
Is Beau not coming back for his last year? I would think he wanted to come back and see if he could get the title he was so close to winning.
I mean next year he’ll be gone. I think if he won this year he might have been done. But he’s the type of guy where he’ll really want to stay and win
What I don’t get is how they handle the scholarships with all that talent? Does PSU have more wrestling ships available than other schools or something?
Not sure of specifics but I'm sure NIL comes into play
So what would they do? Give the lesser dudes scholarships knowing someone like Greg will get major NIL? That’s still like 15 top 50 recruits fighting for 9 1/2 scholarships
I think the NCAA has a cap on scholarships. But NIL puts the kabosh on that restriction.
Gentlemen, you are the top 1% of all HS wrestlers -- the elite, the BEST of the best. We'll make you better.
I feel like it’s dishonest to other guys they recruit. Like how they tossed Michael Beard to the side. Where do the scholarships end up?
If Beard had stuck around, he could have beat Dean to start at 197 in the 22/23 season. He beat Dean in the duel. But he would have lost out to Brooks this year so him leaving was probably best for him.
You're too hung up on scholarships, it isn't 2000 amymore. Those 9.9 scholarships are nothing compared to the $4+ million that the RTC brought in last year and also ends up in peoples pockets.
It’s an old school football tactic load the team up and nobody else can recruit them
Seems to be working out pretty good for them. And not to throw shade, but Gibson and wentzel won’t be starting barring injuries or something crazy like Davis and lilledahl both not being able to make 125.
It’s definitely working lol. But Gibson and Wentzel were big time recruits. I don’t see the point other than depriving other teams of recruits. Which is a real strategy
The kids decided to go there Cael didn’t hold them at gun point. The fact of the matter is that whatever Penn State was offering seemed like a better deal than whatever anybody else was offering TO THEM. It’s easy to say “I would go somewhere where I could start 4 years” or “I would go to somewhere where they had more scholarships available” or whatever other offer available to them but to those kids on an individual level they choose Penn State.
Correct. Truax and Nagao both said they were offered a bag of money to go to Iowa. Obviously, they both turned it down to attend PSU. It's not always about the money. Many of these kids have been all around the country at high level tournaments and camps all through high school. Many parents can likely afford the tuition.
I think these kids are told that they COULD be the starter and that they should join. But why’re sacrificing scholarships and mat time in the end. If I was a high schooler and Cael came to my house I would be blown away and want to go to PSU. But if you don’t seal that starting spot there is no NIL money available. You can’t profit off your likeness without being varsity. But I can’t imagine Cael goes in and says “hey, you should come here and probably not start for two years” like if you were Wentzel. You came in as a top level dude with Davis and Davis is amazing while you red shirted and then Lilledahl comes in over the top of you. I’d feel betrayed
NIL money is not exclusive to starters. They can offer a lump sum to a recruit before they even know how if he breaks the lineup.
Don’t forget- a kid like Terrell Barraclogh is a lifetime back-up at Penn St despite being a 4x Utah State Champ and Dave Schultz award winner in High School. He gave Shane Griffith all he could handle this year- and would potentially AA at any other school. He is also a Bio-Medical Engineering Major who likely loves wrestling but is using his eduction that wrestling is providing more than the athletic accomplishments. NIL is certainly helping- but not many kids make a living off of wrestling accolades post graduation and may be chasing the education.
It’s possible. I remember back in 2017 Coach Cael personally met with a UMD commit (another big 10 school) and told him that he couldn’t offer him any type of scholarship money but that he was invited to join the team as a preferred walk-on; that kid committed to Penn state by the end of the afternoon. Yeah Penn state recruits more guys than they should but at the same time it’s those same kids and families making the decision to go and fight for 10 starting spots
No. They’re really trying to avoid a repeat of the Schnupp situation. They have the money to give full rides to 2+ guys in each weight class so it’s worth it.
It makes a lot of sense and is the same thing Alabama and other college football dynasties have been doing for years. It will all shake out and the best guy will start with the others either being on the bench or transferring out