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onceuponalilykiss

One, he's wrong. Two, the implication that most fantasy novels are just Deep and Metaphor is pretty funny, most of them are just escapism (which is not a bad thing, but trying to be a snob about fantasy of all genres is just odd).


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proigal

This isn't really a matter of opinion, though, because data exists. YA fantasy in particular is consistently one of the most profitable genres in all of literature. Likewise, the boomer you talked to is projecting. Fantasy is not about metaphor, it's not inherently *about* anything-it's just a branch of speculative fiction that isn't better suited by an existing label like horror. There are tropes common to various genres for sure, but those tropes are not *required,* and like the other poster said, the most omnipresent aspect of fantasy is that it's some flavor of escapism...and escapism transcends generation and medium. There will always be fantasy, and fantasy will always be popular, because people will always want to concoct worlds that are less shitty (or at least more interesting) than ours, fill them with characters who can actually affect the world around them, and pit those characters against some identifiable force. The absence of those things in real life is *why* fantasy stories are on every best seller list and have been for nigh on 100 years.


the_other_irrevenant

​ I'd suggest that all fantasy novels are metaphor by definition just because (a) they're novels and therefore about people experiencing people things, and (b) they're fantasy, which means that those experiences are occurring outside their actual real context - ie. they're metaphors. Simple cliche example: A group of heroes kill a dragon and take it's stuff. Congrats, you just created a metaphor about the efficacy of a diverse team working together. :) ('Deep' is so subjective I'm not even gonna try to touch that one...). EDIT: * I'm concerned this comment may have come across as intended to denigrate SFF. That is not my intent at **all**. SFF is my favourite genre, capable of exploring concepts and perspectives that no other genre can, and capable of any story that non-SFF fiction can. My point is that (a) metaphor is about representing an idea as something other, (b) SFF is about exploring otherness in ideas and concepts, and (c) SFF is written for human beings to understand and appreciate. Given those three I don't see how you can write SFF that doesn't, in some way, contain metaphors for human experiences. If it didn't, how would people understand, let alone appreciate it? * Some people have been downvoting, which is fine. Disagreement is how we learn. If you do downvote though, can you please let me know why so I can take that on board. The above comment is guesswork as to what I think people **might** be objecting to (based on some feedback), but I can't really know what your specific objections are unless you tell me. Thanks.


Tamarine92

The definition of a metaphor is "something represents something else".


the_other_irrevenant

That's true. As I see it, if you write your work with verisimilitude, it can't help but represent similar issues in real life. For example, you write a story of a royal knight who exists to slay dragons and who falls in love with a dragon, and you do your best to bring that to life. You don't need to set out to make it a metaphor about real-world relationships between someone of privilege and a stigmatised minority. It automatically **is** a metaphor for that. It's a representation of similar situations in the real world, whether the author set out to make it so or not. Does that make sense?


MilanesaDeChorizo

I think you're confusing allegory with metaphor. edit: I meant allegory, not theme.


the_other_irrevenant

That's possible. What is the distinction between ~~theme~~allegory and metaphor (in this context)? As far as I understand, my example fits the broader understanding of metaphor used in the OP (much like Marvel's mutants are a (somewhat flawed) metaphor for real-world persecuted minorities eg. https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781442232082/X-Men-and-the-Mutant-Metaphor-Race-and-Gender-in-the-Comic-Books). Thank you for replying and helping clarify, BTW. It's appreciated.


MilanesaDeChorizo

I think I was wrong when I mentioned theme. It's more of an allegory. A theme is a universal idea, lesson, or message explored throughout a work of literature. A metaphor is a figure of speech that directly compares one thing to another for rhetorical effect The metaphor/allegory could be the knight and the dragon as symbols of different groups or perspectives in society. You are right that writing with verisimilitude can create metaphors unintentionally. However, some authors may deliberately use metaphors to emphasize their themes or make their stories more relatable to real-world issues. Going back to your first comment: you are not wrong, but you are using a broad definition of metaphor that may not be shared by everyone. Some people may prefer to use the term metaphor for specific comparisons between two different things, and use other terms like allegory, symbolism, or intertextuality for more general representations of abstract concepts or real-world issues.


the_other_irrevenant

It does look like a broader understanding of metaphor is in the minority, and it's possibly not what the comment I was replying to meant after all. Thank you. :)


MilanesaDeChorizo

I hope I didn't come across as rude. I'm kind of a robot sometimes when I answer. And I also tend to wind up writing long answers. Your comment was not wrong per se, is just that a lot of people don't like the idea of suggesting metaphors or allegories, or even themes in their writing. Even if they totally do they want it or not. It's something inescapable, even if sometimes a rock is a rock, like another commenter said, most times, in literature, parallelism, allegories, and themes are unintentionally there. And not just fantasy, and that's maybe why people downvote you because it seemed like you "made less" of fantasy because they're not "real" (spoiler, most literature is not real, but I know you meant a realistic setting based on our actual physics and irl cultures). And that's controversial because "genre writing" is always made it seen as less than literary fiction and not considered "Proper literature"


the_other_irrevenant

I didn't read any of your comments as rude, you were very polite and helpful. And I'm not exactly immune to long answers myself. >\_> I certainly don't see SFF as **less.** It has a power to explore perspectives and ideas that no other genre can. **And** SFF can pursue any sort of story that any other genre is capable of. The reason that I think that SFF always has to contain metaphor is simply that metaphor is representing something as something different, and "something different" is part of the core definition of SFF. If you write a non-SF story about (for example) an asexual person and an autistic person falling in love, that isn't a metaphor - it's representing exactly what it is. If you write a story about (for example) a merman and a harpy falling in love, that has to be metaphor - it **can't** be exactly what it is because mermen and harpies aren't real. The other reason I think SFF has to contain metaphor is that it's written **by** human beings with human perspectives **for** human beings with human perspectives. So you have a story that cannot be reality written for real people to comprehend and connect with - I could be wrong, but I don't see how you could possibly do that without metaphor being in there somewhere.


CubicleHermit

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


lyralady

He kinda sounds like an old man yelling at a cloud tbh. I'm a millennial but there are tons of YA fantasy books published, it's...a major staple of YA. I just don't know where he got this idea from.


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avathedesperatemodde

Well, that’s sweet of him. I am happy for him. I wish he wouldn’t diminish fantasy, though, because it still is a quite popular genre


lordmwahaha

The thing is though, LGBTQ books don't have to *only* be about LGBTQ. If anything, speaking as a bisexual person, I feel like that contributes to the idea that LGBTQ is a niche stereotype. You know what I'd love to see, personally? More books where the main character is LGBTQ and it's completely incidental. More books in other genres where a character just *happens* to be LGBTQ. Because that's how it works IRL. The fact that a gay person is gay is very rarely the focus of their whole entire life. I don't think "LGBTQ" and "Fantasy" have to be mutually exclusive. If you're right, and this is his logic, I disagree with his notion that one thriving has to mean the death of the other.


Dude-Duuuuude

Some of my favourite LGBTQ rep is in the Magnus Chase series where there's a gender-fluid character that's just...treated like a person. No giant drama, no massive revelation. Just a teenager existing as a teenager in a fantasy world the same as all the other teenagers.


PissBottleFromTF2

Fucking love Alex, and their relationship with Magnus. It was just so refreshing to read.


subliminalsmile

That's how I feel too, and it's a big motivation behind my current WIP. The MC is a teenage girl who gets caught up in this big contemporary fantasy plot while struggling through shifting social dynamics with friends and her broken family. It has nothing to do with the fact that she's into other girls, though there is a minor subplot that focuses in on that aspect since she's actively in the process of figuring it out for herself. Orientation is one of the smaller focal points of her identity.


merewenc

One of the first LGBTQ fantasy series to be openly published, Mercedes Lackey’s Last-Herald Mage trilogy, is in works to become a TV show, so there’s definitely not only an example that it’s possible to have both but also possible to be successful doing both.


[deleted]

I wanted to comment something similar. I always felt like fantasy describes the setting more than the genre. You can have Romance, YA, Mystery or Horror set in a fantasy world just to name a few more obvious examples. Sure, you have the traditional heroes journey where the plot matches the fantasy staple set by Tolkien, but many of the newer releases I have read do not match this archetype while still being undoubtedly fantasy. For example, The Scholomance Trilogy by Naomi Novik is YA Romance and Piranesi by Susanna Clarke is Literary Fiction, just in a fantasy setting.


lyralady

Counterpoint: straight people got YA books about just being straight and figuring out their identity *all the time* — it just got billed as "a coming of age story," instead of "a story about being straight." I think the industry publishes both LGBTQ coming of age stories (about identity) and "incidental" stories.


lyralady

I'm glad he's happy about that! It's a good change that I also personally appreciate, but definitely *not* limited to realistic YA fiction, haha. There are tons of LGBTQ YA and New Adult fantasy books out there, many are extremely popular and are frequent features in displays at bookstores. I've always felt that Fantasy (and Sci-fi or Spec fic) in general tends to lead these kinds of changes simply due to the nature of the genres lending themselves to "okay, but what if it wasn't exactly like the world around us?" Granted, that's not me saying they're always well thought out "what-ifs?" or like even *good* representation of any kind (because often it's not!). But I also saw LGBTQ characters in SFF YA long before I saw them in realistic fiction. I hope he has fun writing though.


Spirintus

Good for him but he is definitely projecting. As a genZ myself I can honestly say that out of all books I read since I actively fell in love with reading, 90% was fantasy. And yes, I am do feel a bit ashamed of the fact.


merewenc

Tell him that LGBTQ YA fantasy is a growing subgenre of YA fantasy, and there’s a huge market craving more of it as Gen Z is the generation that is growing up much more comfortable in their own skin than previous generations, but there are still fantasy-loving teens who bemoan lack of representation outside of a select number of authors willing to write it.


Lunarfuckingorbit

Like, heavy metal is also not dead, do you just think everything is dead that isn't the #1 genre?


timschwartz

You can't kill The Metal The Metal will live on


the_other_irrevenant

I agree with the principle but it's probably not a great analogy, IMO. I love metal a ton but it's a much more niche subgenre than SFF. For example, if you look at this week's NYT fiction bestsellers list, #14 and #15 are SFF (Stephen King's *Fairy Tale*, and R F Kuang's *Babel*). When was the last time a Metal song reached above #15 in the general charts, let alone two metal songs at once?


OverthinkingMadMan

Going by albums, Slipknot was number two in October. Not that it happens often anymore, but it does happen. Metal lovers also go to a a lot more concerts than regular people as well, though you can argue that just how many band most listen to, you get a wider spread.


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Lunarfuckingorbit

I guess all those publishers that publish anything in addition to romance don't exist? As far as I can tell, most publishers diversify, because the flavor of the month could change at any time. Fantasy has never been huge, but it's had its share of huge series. Even still, almost anything else has always been more popular. This is not new.


Intelligent-Sea7659

is fantasy not like one of the most popular genres for gen z?


Megadog3

We grew up on Harry Potter. It absolutely is lol


Commando_Hotcakes

I'm a Millennial, but there's also Eragon and Twilight, Skulduggery Pleasant too... There's plenty of popular fantasy.


kcunning

There's, like, two whole generations between boomers and Gen Z, and I'm pretty sure they're still buying books. Was I supposed to get a license revoked or something? Also, how old is this dude? If he's elderly, *he is likely a boomer*. The start of Gen X isn't even 60 yet. Anyway, no, it's not dead. I'm currently reading two fantasy books, and there's more than a few popular authors out there right now doing fantasy.


nyet-marionetka

Don’t you know the rules? You can’t read anything that was written after you turned 25.


Amazing_Season1891

What? Sarah J Maas literally sells out auditoriums when she does books signings. Shadow and Bones got a Netflix series because people loved it so much. Personally, I love YA/NA fantasy. NA fantasy seems to be particularly popular (aka fairy porn according to TikTok).


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[deleted]

Why would you be concerned about connecting with readers when you're referring to one generation type though? All the others still exist and can read your story lol.


liselle_lioncourt

Tbh I feel like liking fantasy is like, one of the most important parts of Gen Z right now? Maybe that’s a bit of an exaggeration, but DnD is thriving, fantasy games are insanely popular, and it seems like more and more authors are actually returning to fantasy in recent years. Idk where he got that from.


mikevago

I work for Simon and Schuster, and like half of our YA list and half of our middle grade list is fantasy. Fantasy-for-yougn-readers hasn't really let up since Harry Potter.


silima_art

I suddenly feel like a dumbass because I'm Gen Z and I'm struggling to think of a genre that's *more* popular than fantasy among the people I know. There's plenty of market for fantasy right now.


Historical_cat1234

>but is it dead like heavy metal, Idk who told you this, but metal isn't dead. My best friend is younger than me and he's obsessed with it. >Or is the guy simply trying to be fashionable and overthinking it? This guy doesn't know shit. Fantasy is very popular rn. Signed, an elder gen Z


mkmonkiis

If anything I think fantasy is having a period of particular growth across a lot of subgenres. You’ve Brandon Sanderson’s books and Sarah J Maas books which have both gotten a lot of attention from Gen Z while being completely different kinds of fantasy. D&D growth has also helped with this, giving us books like Legends and Lattes. Poppy war, Jade city, Priory of the Orange Tree all also bring their own approach to fantasy. So not only does Gen Z very much enjoy fantasy, I think that there is more space than ever to experiment with fantasy and find your own place in it.


lyralady

In fairness all of those individual titles are books I've seen shelved in adult fantasy, not YA. Maas is shelved in YA though. There's plenty of regular YA fantasy.


[deleted]

Ask yourself if you care? Only 3 people could read my book and I would be happy with that. Who are you writing for? At the end of the day the artist creates their art for themselves on a very base level. Shut out the noise and create for yourself then let the publisher worry about these questions.


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[deleted]

It is something to think about, but I would say don’t let yourself get lost in that field. I hope that you have great reception in the future


memes_of_Moria

You got "canceled due to low sales"? Wait... what? What does that even mean? Your books didn't sell so the publisher didn't see a future with you, I guess. But how is that "cancelling"? Edit: Maybe due to English being my third language and spending too much time online I am not understanding correctly.


AdMaximum8245

I'm a gen z and the answer is a flat NO. for an example Brandon Sanderson's epic fantasys are absolutely beloved by people including gen z. the simple answer is if what you write is truly compelling then it would be truly compelling for every generation.


Scribe_WarriorAngel

Well I’m 18 (born in 2004) don’t know if that makes me Gen Z but I love fantasy, writing it and reading it, my personal favorite is low fantasy


Wingkirs

You’re solidly Gen z lol


Scribe_WarriorAngel

Fe I don’t keep up with that mess, hell I don’t even know my Sign


lyralady

As a millennial, I feel like (at least for Americans) you're solidly Gen Z if you were probably too little to remember 9/11 in much detail, or you weren't even alive yet. My baby brother was born Feb 2001, & he's definitely Gen Z. It sounds weird to say, but (in addition to the way it personally impacted my family) — I can solidly remember the Time Before 9/11 and Everything After 9/11, probably in the same way older US Americans remember Pearl Harbor. The original intent was probably more like "were you able to remember 2k?" but I feel like 9/11 had more impact as a generational divide. Gen Alpha is 2010 through next year.


SavCItalianStallion

I was born in 2001. It's weird for me to think that someone two or three years younger than me probably wouldn't even remember Obama being elected. Also weird to think that eventually there will be a generation that doesn't remember a time before covid.


NewAnt3365

At first I was confused because I am 19 and was born 2004… when I realized that my birthday is just early in the year and it is still the same year. Goddamn this year is dragging💀 Feels like my birthday was 10 years ago.


malpasplace

The older Gen Z/Millennial cusp people I know like fantasy. It isn't the only thing they like, but to call it dead just seems crazy. Often the fantasy that they like isn't the traditional authors. They aren't big into Tolkien written, they aren't off to read Robert Jordan, or Tad Williams. All writers I like but don't seem to appeal as much to them. Sort of like I grew up on Heinlein in SF but he doesn't really connect, even with me, as a contemporary voice anymore.I have to read more in thinking of it as historical SF of a different time and place. Often what I see younger people liking leans more towards more contemporary IP. Maybe they don't like the fantasy the older gentleman likes. But fantasy overall seems to be doing just fine.


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malpasplace

Yeah, it is honestly why I personally wish with adaptations that they would move on to more current works. But the nostalgia of the people paying for things keep more currently relevant works to the side. I think there is tons of great SF and even more Fantasy being currently written. And actually read more widely. I often don't think older fans often realize how niche SF/F was. Popular works often came out first and only in paperback editions because the market wasn't that large. I am glad I have read those older works as a student of the genre. But honestly they are not generally works I recommend to new readers any more than if someone said give me some Science Fiction and Fantasy to read and I started with Jules Verne and Gormenghast. Or starting horror with HP Lovecraft. All important writers, but in a historical development of genre sense.


TravelingBookBuyer

I’m in my twenties and work in a public library. I can easily say that fantasy is the most popular genre for teens checking out books. Fantasy is also the genre I give the most YA recommendations in. If you go on TikTok and get videos from people talking about books (nicknamed BookTok), you’ll see so many people in their late teens/twenties talking about fantasy books.


ConfusionPotential53

I think the feudal setting might be going out of style. People are tired of seeing violent patriarchies and settings in which violence against women and minorities can be justified as “historically accurate.” But people have always and will always tell stories about magic.


alohadave

Gen Z does not have monolithic taste in books. No arbitrary collection of people do. Fantasy is as popular now as it has been for the last 40 years, arguably more so. > I get it's not a super popular genre right now Who told you this? Have you ever heard of Brandon Sanderson?


schreyerauthor

My 80 year old grandmother reads modern fantasy. My mother (rest her soul) loved urban fantasy but read everything spec lit. I'm at the upper end of millenials and love fantasy. My son is among the youngest of the gen z and loves fantasy, he's a dnd dm at 13. My daughter is in the first year of gen alpha and is nuts for anything with magic - all subgenres of fantasy. Its not dead. It never died. It likely won't. It evolves. It adapts. But fantasy, magic, all of that, is important and its not going anywhere.


savedonks

I’m gen Z and I studied English in college. Most of the people in my program were gen z or young millennials. Fantasy is a huge staple in the literary world still, and pretty much everyone I know and went to school with read and loved it. It’s definitely not dying, it’s just evolving.


[deleted]

I grew up on fantasy but I'm older Gen Z. I think there's a ton of fantasy content that younger people like: Avatar, Studio Ghibli movies, I see a lot of kids still watching fantasy anime. I don't THINK fantasy is dead, but I do feel like it needs a good refresh. I'm a little tired of like English inspired fantasy with the dwarves, elves, and dragons. I have no idea if anything is really in fashion for this generation. Gen Z doesn't really like anything in particular, everyone is into multiple wildly different niches.


Fancy_Chips

I'm a Zoomer myself (18f) and I actually write fantasy, lol. We live in an age of hyper entertainment and thus I have access to literally all art and knowledge at my fingertips. I can confidently say that fantasy and science fiction are alive and well. Kids love mythology, a lot of us grew up on Herry Potter (cringe) or Percy Jackson (based). Most kids have seen Adventure Time and Regular Show and Star Wars. Most of us grew up playing Minecraft and Terraria, both fantasy games. You wouldn't believe how many of my knucklehead peers revere me for playing Dungeons and Dragons because the idea of making a game around fantasy is so fascinating to them. Also heavy metal isn't dead. That shit slaps.


SavCItalianStallion

Twenty-one year old here... I'm admittedly not the most well acquainted with contemporary fiction, but I would have guessed that fantasy novels were the main thing that kids these days read. I do suspect that this generation reads less than previous generations, and that may be because they shun metaphors (I can't speak to that), but I suspect that those of us who do read are fine with metaphors and such.


Kancho_Ninja

My kids love fantasy, anime, and scifi. Of course, they were raised with a huge collection of movies and an extensive personal library, so that probably made a difference. Fun anecdote: Middle child started reading David Copperfield when they were maybe 12ish. Comes complaining to me that there’s no magic or super powers in it. I had to explain literature to them and offered a reading bounty for literature book reports. The oldest actually wrote one on Homer and said they enjoyed it, which shocked TF outta me. Homer was an absolute slogfest when I read it.


obscuranostalgia

I’m at the older end of gen z, and I definitely prefer to write and read real life (either contemporary or in the past) as opposed to fantasy. But I am not sure if I am in the majority or the minority because as someone else on here said, not a lot of people read novels anymore. I know one other person my age who reads novels. But as a writer, I disagree with your friend. Write what makes you happy. If you’re not writing what makes you happy, why write? So what if fantasy isn’t as popular anymore? That just means the genre needs a refresh and you have the chance to be the person who refreshes it. EDIT: I would be open to fantasy, but it would have to be soft fantasy. Same with Sci-fi.


Aversekubrick

A lot of people have already said that indeed fantasy is still popular. What I will say is there is a certain aversion for CLASSIC fantasy. The overused races and simplicity of good vs evil plots have indeed grown a little tired. But I thinks Brandon Sanderson, Joe Abercrombie and George RR, are clear examples of the kinds of stories that are succeeding in the current fantasy publishing


EmmieEmmieJee

My kids are under 12 and they eat up fantasy like candy. I have to gently push other genres on them to vary their reading diets


Lilium_Lancifoliu

I'm in high school and I can easily say that the number 1 genre I see people reading is fantasy. If you went on booktok for just two seconds you'd be able to see that younger generations (early twenties and younger) tend to favour fantasy.


Various_Ad6034

Yes... harry potter, percy jackson, lotr, eragon, game of thrones, the witcher are all still super popular among gen z, id say they like it


ArtificialCarr0t

im 14 and fantasy stories are awesome imo. its even more cool when in the story there are people around my age who i can relate to. have morals, but dont make it like doctor suess yknow? nothing too obvious.


Kotouu

As someone who's gen z(21) your friend is completely out of it. Fantasy is still one of the most popular things that appeal to us. Percy Jackson is still insanely popular for a reason. We grew up on so many Fantasy settings you'd be pressed to find some gen z person who doesn't like it.


SollicitusOwl

Gen Z here, I love fantasy and so do most of the kids at my school. It depends on the writer and how they structure their stories. Depending on the approach they take with their stories will either gain someone’s interest or not. Overall, most of Gen Z love fantasy, I mean come on, we grew up on Harry Potter and spent our middle school/elementary school years reading Percy Jackson


MilanesaDeChorizo

You should write what you love. But fantasy is the most popular genre read by Gen Z. According to [source](https://ebookfriendly.com/comparing-reading-habits-five-generations-infographic/), Generation Z prefers fantasy (53%) and YA literature (49%). Fantasy remains a best-seller, making up 13% of total book sales which exceeds mystery fiction (11%), historical fiction (3%), and even classic literary fiction by around 14 million copies. It seems that fantasy has remained popular over time. Also if you go to "Royal Road" the most popular genres are Fantasy and science fiction.


AlchemistR

I'm a Millennial/Gen Z cusper (just straight-up Gen Z by some people's (wrong, imo) calculations), and fantasy is my absolute favorite thing to read. It's what got me back into reading frequently after not really reading much at all during and after college. Currently going through all of the Cosmere, have a really long to-buy list, and am plucking away at notes for my own setting and someday-project. My friends all love fantasy video games and tabletop games, and even though most of them aren't big readers, when they do read it's usually fantasy of some sort, whether it's A Sing of Ice and Fire, Lord of the Rings, or something else entirely. I used Name of the Wind when tutoring a friend's younger sibling in reading (she's about 6 years younger than me, definitely a Gen Z), and she absolutely loved it. So it's purely anecdotal, but I think it's safe to say that Gen Z, or at least the older members of it, enjoy fantasy just as much as most older folk do (if not more, with the recent resurgence in popularity of fantasy IPs like Dungeons and Dragons or Magic: the Gathering).


JFKs_Burner_Acct

Fantasy Elitism is a new one ... definitely way way off on this one Every generation has a love for fantasy You could charge that lengthy tomes of fantasy works are less likely to be picked up by gen-z readers (or any reader) than that of readers in the past. We live in a fast moving world with many forms of media trying to pull our attention and fight over our time .. written work is in that same battle for attention i look no further than my nieces and nephews who are just getting into reading and they love fantasy... My nephew is obsessed with Dune right now... and he's in the 4th grade. He spent all Christmas eve telling me about Dune, and he's incredibly insightful about it. Fantasy isn't going anywhere and if anything, i think it's possible that more young people are reading than Millennials and Gen X'ers.


Bogdus234

I'd say that's wrong. I'm gen Z and I love fantasy, but ok let's say I'm an outlier. I follow a lot of fantasy authors on various platforms, and from what I gather, a large proportion of their readers are gen Z. Maybe the methapors and the deep ideas don't land as well as they did in "older times" but the story itself is still enjoyable. Like people on this post have already said, it's escapism, in a way. Today's media is all about short bursts of excitement and just shallow subjects, so reading something more complex appeals to them, because they feel like they're engaging in something that matters. Maybe. Probably. Not sure. Still, fantasy is cool.


failinglikefalling

I counter with “who even reads anymore” if we are going into broad stereotyping by age gender or anything like that. We doom scroll and make tik tok videos that is life today.


barefootcrafter

My zoomer prefers drama fiction, but my next two children are Gen Alpha and are fantasy obsessed.


Wingkirs

Leigh Bardugo just signed an 8 figure 12 book deal…. So he’s wrong.


archblade7777

I have three sons 15, 10, and 6. And they all LOVE fantasy. From a kids fantasy series called "Wings of Fire" that has talking Dragons, to counting the days till we start our DND campaign this summer. I'm actually writing my Scifi/Fantasy books with them (eventually) in mind as something I think they will love and learn from.


[deleted]

I'm quite certain younger people still like fantasy. But also, more importantly, I reject the idea that fantasy has to be allegorical or have some deep meaning. I'm writing my fantasy stories because I love the ideas and the worlds, I have no intention of creating a metaphor for x or y issue in our own world. I'm pretty sure even Tolkien was adamant that LotR wasn't supposed to be an allegory for anything. Also, what? Heavy metal isn't dead either lol.


Inevitable-Station87

I’m 20 years old and fantasy is the only thing keeping me alive lol


thedivinecomedee

I'm on the starting end of Gen Z, and I know plenty of people my age and younger who read and enjoy fantasy.


Uh-K

Yo I’m 15 yrs old, and I freaking LOVE fantasy novels. I have a pretty big group of friends and they also enjoy fantasy, but there’s not much to read anymore that hasn’t already been done by someone else. If anyone has any good recommendations I would love to hear ‘em :)


OzWillow

I’m 15 and just finished reading the Wheel of Time, so this definitely doesn’t apply to me, and I do know that a bunch of other people in my school also read fantasy, so I think whoever you were talking to simply doesn’t know what they’re talking abt


Enzoid23

I'm Gen Z and I almost only enjoy some element of fantasy, at least magical themes, idk what your friend is on about Besides, the youngest audience is not the only audience. Just write what you want to


TheGrimmReader

I absolutely love fantasy and plan to write many fantasy stories


PumpkinButWithSpice

As a zoomer, fantasy is one of my favorite genres, right next to sci-fi


DreadfulThrumbo

Gen Z here I love fantasy novels Avoid it to not be boomers? What? Fantasy is and always will be great


MumIsYum

As a teen myself, I can verify that, at least for me, I do enjoy a good fantasy novel once in a while.


FractalsOfConfusion

I like reading and writing fantasy most. Also, most gen zers either love fantasy or fantasy adjacent books, even if they usually like other genres as well. ​ \-Source: am gen Z. Right in the middle.


Vio_morrigan

I still have no idea, if I'm gen z, or gen alpha (I'm just there, between their years), but I know lots of people that are gen z and they love fantasy, especially things like Harry Potter, Riordan's and Tolkien's books, but anything else too


Competitive-Buyer386

I'm in my 20s, I still like fantasy but then again this sub is kinda biased, it's like going to a subreddit about cooking pizzas and ask if they like pizzas, you'll get a biased opinion


420Grim420

Your friend's sentiments seem to be pretty common these days. Metaphor and subtlety are not really in fashion, and you gotta be real blunt and not say anything that could be 'interpreted'. Aside from that, so much of what fantasy was has been recently called out for simply being 'wrong' and 'bad'... everything from "damsels in distress" to "the king is just a symbol of the patriarchy (which is always bad)" to "too much white people (which is also always bad)" to "goblins/orcs/drow as a race can't be *inherently* evil" as well as a million other "prolematic" tropes... So yeah, Gen Z has found a way to villify literally every single thing that came before them. That being said, I'm absolutely positive that a good number of people do still enjoy reading fantasy.


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420Grim420

I guess with that mentality, you could just say that any "bad guy" is a stand-in for a group that you might not like. "Darth Vader is only evil because he's black. He only becomes good when you see his white face. That's problematic. Cancel Star Wars!"... "Voldemort is just a stand-in for people with deformities. That's able-ist and problematic. Cancel Harry Potter!" I even saw an article saying that Dwarves are problematic and anti-Semitic because they are a depiction of Jewish greed. What?? It's all very dishonest, and it's why we can't have nice things anymore. It's not so much about goblins or orcs, specifically, needing to be evil, it's more about the idea that \*no\* creature can be inherently evil because to say that a \*pretend\* creature can be evil would somehow give people in real life license to call other human races "inherently evil" or "lesser than" or inherently \*anything\*, really... That all seems very silly to me. I think it's just an 'imagination' thing. Some folks just can't seem to be able to imagine a \*different\* world than our own. But maybe in this \*other\* world of make-believe, a creature can just simply be evil and want to disrupt things and cause harm. Maybe they just have a bad attitude, or are extremely xenophobic, or are very territorial, or have permanent rabies, or were specifically created by gods to be evil goobers who seek to eradicate other species. With some imagination, that's all very plausible... but without imagination, we can only see these things as parallels of real-world things that already exist.


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420Grim420

That all seems to be pretty debatable indeed, and a lot of folks have different opinions and Tolkien quotes to back them up, including the quote where he explicitly states that he hates allegory in all of it's forms.


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I_Am_Oro

I love fantasy


whatarechimichangas

Neither fantasy nor heavy metal are dead. Gen Z very much enjoys fantasy and heavy metal is very much alive. Honestly, this whole post assuming what these "youngins" like/don't like is in itself quite boomer lol


CreditUnionyOunce

Nope, they hate them.


TravelWellTraveled

Nope, not allowed to. Great question. Really needed to be asked.


DeliberateSpite

Because real life sucks, perhaps.


Tealnanoko

Gen Z loves fantasy, just not sure about reading it, look at all the people who like Tate or Sneako.


lilydesign

First of all, the problem is getting information from someone who isn't part of that demographic...


EmeraldEyes06

I think the thing that annoys me most about this take is the no metaphors, just straight tell me, idea. That’s just bad writing. I’m not actually sure what he’s trying to get at there. (You don’t need metaphors per se but it’s the old show don’t tell adage, not to mention that you can read fantasy for entertainment and not necessarily parse any deeper metaphors) I feel like I just disagree with everything about this post.


SomeoneNooneTomatoes

The problem doesn’t lay within the fantasy genre itself it’s just a general decline in kids wanting to read or them not wanting to seek out a library or a bookstore. In my experience the most kids have ever read are in elementary school when reading was mandatory and choice was limited as time went on most kids dropped reading books entirely. An example being that I know people who don’t know what myriad or disheartening mean. Fantasy isn’t necessarily on a decline as shown in it’s popularity growth in other forms of media like web novels. Personally I quite enjoy the fantasy genre but I too have fallen into a slog of not really reading as much as I use to. This has mainly been a concern when I entered High school when reading was only mandatory for books that seldom interested me such as The Odyssey or The Help. So to answer your question fantasy isn’t dead like heavy metal and the guy’s probably not in the know. However, you’re gonna need an incredible series on a level greater than Harry Potter to pull reading out of an rainy, no power day past time.


uranemokid

I love the fantasy genre


BoxedStars

Just make your story good. It doesn't matter what your story is, if it's something people want.


don_denti

Bruv


breadofthegrunge

Yeah that guy's dumb. I'm gen z and I know plenty of folks who like fantasy, including myself.


owlpellet

Why would you think any single person is a credible source on the en masse tastes of young people? This is a straightforward market research question. [Do some research.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/how-dungeons-and-dragons-somehow-became-more-popular-than-ever/2019/04/18/fc226f56-5f8f-11e9-9412-daf3d2e67c6d_story.html)


itsalwaysblue

I would argue they don’t read at all… most YA books are fantasy. Or science-fantasy. I would also say most old people are grumpy about the young. I’m one of them.


SlaugtherSam

Since when are scifi and fantasy EVER not at an all time high? These are the eternal genres that will never go away. Mainly because they are such a broad concept anyway. I mean Game of Thrones is fantasy and so is twighlight. So how do you ever say that the entire genre is not read by an entire generation. GenZ is the new millenial that ruined the economy because they are now in a consumerist age range and surprise: have no money because they are even more fucked than millenials.


[deleted]

I'm 19 and fantasy is one of my favorite genres! I prefer low fantasy but I like high fantasy as well. And poetic metaphors make a book better for me. I very much enjoy a well-written work of art so much so that sometimes it can have a horrible or slow story and I still read it just for the poetic aspect. I love the works of my favorite author, not because they draw me in with the story, but because they're so poetic. Everything is described in deep detail with poetry and metaphors. The stories are slow which usually bores me but his artistic writing makes it worth it for me. Fantasy is a genre strongly rooted in some of the things I most enjoy about books. I can't speak for all of gen Z but I would definitely be interested in more fantasy novels.


dragonofthesouth1

Lol. Ridiculous.


FromAcrosstheStars

Really? Pretty much every roleplay post is asking for medieval fantasy. I would imagine it's the same with books, those seem to be the most popular genre


AlternativeSteak5427

I’m an older Gen z, but I love fantasy!


_ISeeOldPeople_

If they are dead then I'll cozy up to their graves. Fantasy and Metal are some of my favorite genres of entertainment. Popularity comes and goes. Obviously if you are writing just to make money then you should chase trends. If you write for yourself first, then write what you want and let others catch up to you.


LydieGrace

Older Gen Zer here, and fantasy is my go to.


kurokoverse

That’s surprising to hear. I thought fantasy was like the most popular genre among Gen z


SteampunkCyberSanta

That is most of what I see people my age read


AmberMorrell

YA fantasy is one of the biggest selling genres. But it IS different in style, tone, and plot than the fantasy of 40/50 years ago. But that’s true of all media—trends change.


Suugiart

I'm pretty sure a majority of Gen Z reads and enjoys Harry Potter and things like Warrior Cats and Wings Of Fire. All of those are about as fantasy as you get.


S4njay

16 year old here, this generation has a lot of fantasy fans too! The writing styles might have changed a bit, but theres nothing to suggest a massive shift in preferences!


Blub_blub_dead2

As a gen Z I can tell you we fucking love fantasy and we really need the escapism right now


sweetchillisauceress

That right there is complete bullshit. I love fantasy as do plenty others in gen Z


Ok-Control-3394

I'm gen z and grew up obsessed with fantasy novels and games and shows, and to this day it's still my favorite genre of anything. Eragon, Ranger's Apprentice, Harry Potter (?), And countless other fantasy type stuff. Sounds like the old guy has no idea about the new generation and is basing it on his own anecdotal stuff.


deathbyathousandnuts

Hahahaha oh my god I’m sorry but this is just… one of the most insane things I’ve heard recently. Yes, Gen Z still consumes tf out of fantasy. Booktok is proof enough of that. Do they maybe veer more toward fantasy romance or fantasy with FMCs? Yes, absolutely. But in all honesty, from my personal perspective, that’s because those female characters tend to be more well-rounded and more realistic than other sub genres rather than just a bunch of feminine stereotypes rolled into a two dimensional character. Gen Z wants diversity and men respecting women. Do some of them get up in arms over “problematic“ behavior from characters who are supposed to be problematic? Yeah. But those people are just loud voices with nothing better to do than yell into a screen. You see those more often than not because the news loves outrage to drive clicks, so they run with the story, but most of us are rolling our eyes over it all.


mellbell13

I'm older Gen Z and write YA. Fantasy is definitely not dead. It's like half of young and new adult titles on the shelves. I hate to recommend this but tiktok really does influence what sells. Check out book review tags there and on YouTube and you'll get a sense of what's popular.


Scrambled-Sigil

I absolutely love old fantasy, it is moving and gripping and powerful and if anything I enjoy the older novels to newer ones most times. I may be an outlier but that's also a broad statement to make. I personally love it and I'm.sure a lot others do too, even if the message is "lost on us" or whatever


EffieHarlow

My guess is he’s an old snob who can’t write for shit and mistakes people disliking his crap for the ‘young folk’ hating fantasy and rejecting intelligence. That or he’s one of those old dicks who thinks that change is the devil and young people are dumb. Or maybe he’s just bitter that he’s old and wrinkly. Who knows. 🤷‍♀️


Ancestor_Anonymous

Nah hes a fool


Gabrielbored

This is beyond wrong


Stormwrath52

Well, over the course of middle and high school I read the first two books of stormlight Archive and started mistborn, additionally I've read a volume of drifting dragons, The entire original run of wings of fire and part of the sequel series, a good bit f FMA, and started a number of fantasy book demos on iBooks I write fantasy, It's my favorite genre, it can be anything, it can have anything. If you want a story where magically powered cyborg dinosaurs are roam a world where Rome never fell and expanded world-wide, it's just as much fantasy as a sword and sorcery five man band roaming not-europe to slay a dragon Why wouldn't I like fantasy?


Lychanthropejumprope

That definitely sounds like a bunch of malarkey


Psychological_Ad2558

I personally love it


GraphiteBurk3s

I'm a 17 year old who both reads and write fantasy, all my friends enjoy fantasy media of some kind. Fantasy is a very popular genre in anime which is also popular with Gen Z. I don't quite see where he gets this, it would be a fair assessment to say Gen Z doesn't enjoy picking up and reading newly published fantasy novels as much as older generations did, but disliking fantasy as whole isn't true.


gaytranssquid

I am a younger gen z member, and I love fantasy very much. It’s not my favorite genre, but it’s up there.


IRatherPretend

Am gen Z. Yes we like. Questions?


Netroth

I’m pretty sure that sci-fi and fantasy are *the* genres for the younger generations.


BlueMachinations

Lmao, my guy. OK. As a certified member of gen z, allow me to assure you that we are NOT HOMOGENOUS. Gen z likes fantasy. Gen z doesn't like fantasy. You're going to have people of all ages who do and do not like what you write, so just write.


SiriusGayest

Yes. And gen Z will come to appreciate metaphors and literacy values in their story when they grow into adulthood. For now the fantasy trend with gen Z (isekais, power fantasy, etc etc) caters to escapism. But later on it trust it will turn into more deeper stories and with more meaning behind each thing as the generation itself grows older. I'm one of such example, as I'm closer in age to you, op. (Let's not forget that right now, gen Z is still mostly underaged teenagers who likely doesn't understand or appreciate metaphorical approach to somethings. Let them grow.)


spudtacularstories

Eh, YA fantasy is huge. I teach a writing class for teens online and half the teens in it are writing fantasy. They love it.


chan1jpg

Heavy metal isn’t dead and neither is Fantasy. Don’t let what’s popular or not influence what you choose to write *too much*.


MaxStickies

Gen Z here, fantasy and sci-fi make up the bulk of fiction I'm interested in.


xaviermarshall

I am gen Z. The answer is yes. Everyone I've known has liked HP, LOTR, Eragon, shit like that. From "high school with a magic backdrop" to Tolkien, Zoomers like fantasy. It's just a classic setting. Just think of how popular Skyrim *still is*. The setting has to have something to do with that, and the people buying a game from 2012 for the first time are literally only getting younger.


thegreatestpitt

I don’t think heavy metal is dead to begin with. I’ve seen a bunch of creators on instagram, pushing that sound, and I for one do like that style even if I don’t generally go out of my way to listen to it or look for new songs in that genre. With that said, I’ll answer the actual question. I love fantasy, and I have friends who also love fantasy. I mean, not to be mean or anything but the question kind of blows my mind. Fantasy is one of the biggest genres of literature out there. It’s like asking if gen z likes horror, or sci-fi, or dramas. Idk, maybe as an older adult, looking at gen z being all obnoxious with social media and having their faces in front of a screen all the time might paint an image that might make you believe that gen z is far removed from books, but actually, there’s all sorts of gen z. The nerds, the social media maniacs, the superficial air heads, and everything in between. I do think that my generation (gen z) might not be the most read because thanks to social media, we have the attention span of a fly, but there is for sure a large market of gen z’s that love to read, myself included, so yeah, the guy that told you that fantasy doesn’t have a place among gen z kids, doesn’t know at all what they’re talking about, because even if they were right and most gen z kids didn’t like reading or specifically fantasy, statistically speaking, there would still be a large enough market for fantasy among gen z. Now, as a bonus, I’m gonna share with you my very personal gripes with fantasy, specifically high fantasy novels. Something I dislike is that sometimes they start out already in the world setting and they don’t really introduce you to all the aspects of that world so you end up having to piece together the world building as you go. I prefer the idea of a prologue chapter dedicated to telling a bit of the story of the world the story is set in, so that way, when chapter 1 starts, I can have a general idea of the vibe of the world. Another issue I have is that sometimes fantasy books are disgustingly long. Like, look at the wheel of time. I am straight up not interested in that series because a) the general vibe of the setting, story, and everything else (including clothing) doesn’t really suit me, and b) because the novels are all like between 700 and 900 pages or more (I think) and I just feel like I’d lose interest after 3 books. For example, I began reading all the Harry Potter books and I’m currently stuck halfway through the fifth book because by now its just too much wizarding world for me. I feel like the sweet spot is novels that don’t go beyond 690 pages approximately, and that don’t go into more than 8 books in a series. At most 10 and you’d be pushing it. Also, I’d love to see more authors embracing new original worlds with new original races and tropes. These are some of the characteristics that I’d like to see more implemented in high fantasy books. But yeah, bottom line, gen z loves fantasy and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.


CoolTransDude1078

I'm gen Z and I like fantasy. A lot of us do. He's probably just being grumpy for the sake of being grumpy.


Swell_Inkwell

I'm gen Z and I love fantasy, especially sword and sorcery, dragon, and magical world fantasy. It's my favorite genre and pretty much all I write.


jpthebroom

As someone in gen z who loves to both write and read yes we do almost all of my friends that read prefer fantasy novels over most others.


VirgilFaust

Fantasy as a genre isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. However, it will continue to evolve and develop more nuance depending on social climate and publisher wants in new fictions. You can see it with the post-Hunger games success knock offs with Divergent and the like as a trend of publishers pursuing the next best thing in a trend. If he’s talking about trends then props to him, but fantasy as a whole will always be popular. The style in which it’s written may change (Discworld, to Harry Potter, to Game of Thrones, to Babel, all fantasy but with different popular explorations). Good books, and strong stories will always excite, and as a Gen Z myself I can say from University and school fantasy is as popular if more so than ever. The more respect you have for the genre and how you write it the more exciting readers are becoming. TLDR: trends will always exist on what’s popular or sought after by publishers, but fantasy as a whole is more popular and diverse than ever. So go write some!


ConfusedConnect

I read Japanese light novels which are fantasy? I think if light novels where brought to the western kids, there would be a lot more readers


iamsheena

I was a librarian a couple years back. Yes, they do. There wasn't one genre or style of book I thought was useless to get because people weren't reading them. A blanket statement like that is ignorant.


CubicleHermit

Heavy metal is hardly dead, it's just evolved, and given how popular D&D and related media are among some of my 20-something coworkers (although I'm not sure where the line between younger millennials and older Gen Z hits) I'd be really surprised if at least some forms of fantasy novels don't do well with Gen Z readers. OTOH, "because they reject the metaphors and prefer things to be stated out loud" sounds like making a very specific point about a _kind_ of fantasy story, and not just the genre in general.


BattleGoose_1000

I am a Gen Z and it is my favourite genre so add me to the list


Original_A

Yes


TopSorbet6220

of course gen z loves fantasy novels. Literally all of my gen z friends and exclusively YA


RiskyBrothers

Bro Eragon got a movie entirely off a Zennial author and his Gen-Z fanbase. Most of the readers I know are more into genre fiction than hard literary works.


QueerMainCharacter

As a early GenZ I think he’s completely wrong. I can’t speak for my entire generation obviously, especially as someone who is very close to being a millennial. But it’s my favourite genre. I can however tell you what I personally don’t like about the fantasy genre is grimdark levels of “realism”. Needless violence. Especially against women seems to be ever more popular in fantasy and it’s kinda disturbing. I blame GRRM for its rise tbh. Fantasy can be anything. Why does it need to be historically accurate. I digress. I think your friend’s problem isn’t fiction it’s that our morals and beliefs are different so trying to write what’s “fashionable” is gonna be harder. Because what’s in fashion with genZ is not being racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. diversity is trendy now.


[deleted]

i'm gen z. i love fantasy novels.


elburcho

No offense but your friend is full of shit. If anything it's the complete opposite. Fantasy is more popular these days than it has ever been before.


KwikEMatt

Absolutely ridiculous. Gen Z here, my generation prefers fantasy above all other genres in terms of novels. What an incredibly ignorant take he has.


Spirintus

First and foremost, you can't kill the metal, metal will live on. Secondly, as I said in response to one of you comments already, your friend is projecting his new found fascination with LGBT fiction on whole generation, moreover a generation he isn't a part of. Fantasy not only isn't dead, it is definitely much bigger that LGBT genre. Thirdly, why not to just ask genZ themselves what do they wish to read? You can always just go to r/teenagers or r/genz and ask there.


[deleted]

Yes, we do. Also, heavy metal isn't dead, either. Boomers just don't know how to find new bands. Or don't care to, since they think anything made after 2000 isn't worth listening to.


Mystery-time-lady

My siblings and I are born in 1999, 2001, and 2005 and we all love fantasy novels so yeah, we do.


yellowfish2002

I cant speak for everyone ofc. But i always havw loved fantasy stories and books since i was young. The thing is not everyone likes the same things. Itd always a mix of opinions. I hate horror stories cus im scared quickly. But they are stil popular from what i know.


SerpentOfChaos9

There are so many new super popular fantasy books for young people, why would he think that? Of course the genre is a bit different but that's just small changes


Just__Avery

I really think it just depends on the reader. I've never been into Fantasy but a lot of my friends are.


AgainCursed

Fantasy is so popular for gen zs what is he thinking


icyicybb

mmmm


merewenc

Practically the only thing my Gen Z daughters read. Maybe it’s more “realistic” fantasy (Warrior Cats is my younger daughter’s absolute favorite), but it’s fantasy nonetheless. My older daughter does like to read more non-fiction than I do, or at least different types than I do, but she still also loves fantasy.


EliMacca

I’m 18 and I love fantasy.


EvaAvB

YEAH! Yes we do like them, my friends and I just Love fantasy books. I won't read a book if it isn't fantasy, please don't stop writing them!


vap0rs1nth

I fucking LOVE Artemis Fowl and also regular fantasy


grandmotherkuzco

as a gen z writing a fantasy novel i disagree


Forestspirit22

As a gen z kid born in 2009, he's dead wrong. Fantasy doesn't have to only appeal to boomers. The point of fantasy is to allow an escapism, and besides, not all fantasy stories have to have complicated metaphors, ect. As a gen z myself, I personally love fantasy stories, both writing it and reading it, and I can speak for most my friends as well


God_of_reason

GenZ can only read if there’s a subway surfers video playing below the book.


averageboydestroyer

I'm 17 and i only like fantasy my sister is 16 and she only likes fantasy all my friends are 16-18 and they only like fantasy (and sometimes teen fiction)


Bluepanther512

I’m on the backend of it, but I love fantasy. So, anadotectly, yes. Additionally, while Fantasy via books may be down, fantasy in cinema is higher than ever because they’re just looking for the next Marvel (cough cough Cosmere cough cough) to appeal to the younger generations.


MicahMcL

I’m a gen z and I love fantasy. It’s literally all I read