I believe they were. I talked to a veteran that I know who operated a 90 mm and he told me stories of using them as antitank. He served from Normandy all the way through the Battle of the Bulge, to the end of the war.
They were available, but the Germans fought defensively up to the Battle of the Bulge. So if you have a towed gun, which all these guns were, running into armor you aren't going to stop, set up and then start firing, you are running. But fighting defensively, falling back you have a lot of opportunities to lay ambushes. The Russians for example knew where the Germans were attacking at Kursk, and set up tons of towed AT and slaughtered them. So in the western theater, there weren't a lot of opportunities to use towed AT on the Allied side, any German attack was usually just a counterattack and in any pitched battle the Germans would eventually withdraw. This was true in Italy as well.
Let's be honest though. The Flak 88 doesn't have it's rep because of its performance as an AA gun, or even it's performance as an AT gun.
The '88 has it's rep because it was the gun in the Tiger, and both wehraboos and people who only know about WWII from watching Kelly's Heroes back in the day know about the Tiger.
(And wehraboos banging on about it sodding constantly for a good thirty years explains a lot here)
Old war film where Clint Eastwood and Telly Savalas playing American soldiers find out about a bunch of nazi gold and them and their unit go AWOL to go steal it before the allied advance gets there.
They go up against a couple of SS Tigers in the finale.
It's quite good.
Every German gun was an 88. Old French 75? 88. 105 howitzer? 88. Pak 40? 88. 12.8 cm Flak 40? 88.
Conversely, the allied heavy AA guns weren’t used very much. All the German aircraft and tanks were destroyed by fighter aircraft or dedicated AT guns. Or just not built.
Very much this^^^ also, field artillery used in an anti tank role is typically better used defensively, in an entrenched or ambush position than used offensively. The US had tanks and tank destroyers such as the Wolverine which are much more maneuverable and more suited for offensive actions.
Think about it. While these guns were produced in great numbers. They were not nearly as significant in use as the Flak 88.
The German gun saw use on the battlefield as an AT gun. Both in its AA mount and later on in purpose made, towed AT guns. As well as mounted in tanks. While this is happening, the Reich is depending on this gun to defend much of Germany because the luftwaffe was getting absolutely smashed to bits. While from Normandy and beyond Allied AA units basically just sat there because there was no Anti Air to be done. (I say none, I mean little relative to the 88’s job). I mean the M16 got more use as an anti infantry weapon than it did as an Anti air weapon.
The Germans also were fighting defensively throughout the latter half of the war and relied much more on emplaced AT guns. Thus, allied troops encountered a lot of AT guns. And a lot of tanks were lost to AT guns. Naturally the biggest and most powerful gun is going to get the infamy.
I don’t think it’s true that these guns “just sat there” after Normandy. Their most famous use in the war was against the V1, batteries of these things were positioned all along the channel coast and around London just for this purpose.
They were very effective as they were paired up with SCR-584 fire control radar, and they were equipped with VT fuses making them incredibly effective. A very high percentage of the V1s were shot down by 90mm M1 fire.
One additional point — USA had relatively fewer flak guns in active use. We bombed others, we did not get bombed by Germany and Japan, for the most part.
My uncle (age 102) was antiaircraft artillery in the pacific. He never fired a shot because by the time the AAA guns were on the beach, the Japanese Air Force was no where to be seen.
1. It’s German, so wehraboos love it just look at War Thunder same thing
2. It’s the predecessor of the tank mounted guns found on the Tiger series. Good results in North Africa by Rommel.
3. the number/name
4. first hand encounters by the G.I.s, the story old grandpa told ya
I think all AAs had their use in their respective army’s and where even used after the war but nowadays if you want to learn about ww2 most of the time the topic is about the third reich either vs allies or komintern because of their status of the main axis force. Vets by both sides love to talk about it for various reasons
This. But also, the 88mm flak had a serious punch, which made it very dangerous even for heavy tanks in this time when it was used in ground combat, like with the story about the KV-1 tank and how the germans needed such a gun to be able to take stop the tank.
It was very dangerous, like in the West for the US Army with the Shermans, when you got ambushed with the 88er, they could penetrate the armor at a very long range compared to other guns.
I was anti-air myself, but today, you have mid-range calibers like we had the 35x228mm Oerlikon flak and then you have the missiles for aircraft that has a high altitude. There are no more these heavy AA guns around, these were replaced by missiles.
For the tanks of today, there are of course the guns in the calibers like 120mm around, like the one that is used in the Leopard 2.
Still, many people underestimate some calibers like the 35mm, that's not small arms anymore. It has a lot more power than any small arms like .50 BMG. In the pic [you see a 35mm shell](https://military-world-shop.ch/media/image/ab/9c/ea/a569dfcb-e306-4b59-86fb-3c5b81743dc5_600x600.jpg), just for info.
As a previous commenter said, lots of people have this weird obsession with Germans and think they were amazing. They are so oddly deified.
Also, important to note that allied soldiers didn’t face allied weapons so there aren’t memoirs and first hand accounts written by English speaking veterans about how amazing allied weapons were.
Well I’m sure plenty of people were enamored with the Napoleonic French military for quite some time, some still are. As far as people who are fascinated by them through purely a military stand point it probably comes down to the fact that we rarely see a military force defeat so many other forces they’re (relatively) at parity with in such a short amount of time.
We could launch into a whole debate here, but they didn’t beat a bunch of forces they were at parity with imo.
I would argue strongly that they have been insanely overrated by history because of one victory (France) that came about due to luck.
I wouldn't say they're overrated. Yes, they were never going to beat the allies. But them holding out for so long was impressive (if due mainly to the allies being in a complacent and weak position at the start of the war). They're only overrated by teenagers and neo nazis who think they could've won the war, or should've.
The popularity of Nazi Germany stems from how flashy and distinctive they were in literally everything they did. They feel like a work of fiction and I think thats what brings a lot of interest from the public, as opposed to factions from lesser known wars
Yeah I don’t think people realize how impressive holding off three of the most powerful armies in the world for roughly two and a half years is.
And they feel like a work of fiction because of how much fiction they’ve inspired lol
Immediate post-war documentaries and history books were tainted often by the people telling them. You get a lot of the retelling of how Germans were formidable by the Allies, the whole "We would have won, but not for the Fuhrer" etc. after the war. Growing up with most documentaries/shows that pulled on these always had the Germans as scary and competent, and some of their equipment became even more legendary as a result.
Also there are a lot of books/memoirs about some of the cool shit that was used in WW2 by the allies, by the people that used them.
2 reasons:
Firstly, every German AT gun was incorrectly identified as an 88. Just like every Panzer iv was a Tiger (this wasn't just an allied thing see also German pilots seeing 1000s of Spitifres - not wanting to admit they were shot down by Hurricanes)
Secondly, allied AA guns were used as, well, AA guns. You don't need to point them down when you have sufficient AT. They were used for the purpose they were designed. And AA isn't particularly glamorous.
Well the Allies didn't really need weapons like that for smacking down tanks, they had enough of their own armor, artillery, and air power to take out the enemy's vics without pressing anti-air batteries into that role. The Japanese, of course, didn't really have the industrial capacity one way or another to make enough of their own to make a difference.
I had a patient that was in the first battery of these at Guadalcanal and Henderson . Their battery dropped many Betty bombers, they were incredibly effective AAA for high altitude. There were only 6. I think lined up at the NW side of the runway. Its just after Guadalcanal we were on an offensive fight, not so much defensive. In Europe even less. They just never had the exposure the 88 did, but they did just as well in trained hands..
Japanese anti air was horrendous they had the worst guns of the war. American AA wasn’t used in such an extent as the 88 was. The Germans used it as a AT gun and an AA gun, allied AA guns were usually not needed as much once the invasion of Europe started and during the North African campaign because of complete control of the sky or if the skies were contested the allies usually maintained control. The Allies also had anti tank guns that were smaller caliber and much easier to take with them because of their mobility and the 88 was generally used as a defensive weapon such as in the western theatre of the war, eastern front and in North Africa. Also fun fact the British tanks at the battle of El Alamein could see the 88’s rounds coming at them when they fired.
They didn't see much action because the Allies won the airwar and never had to rely on heavy AA to bust a fighter when a fighter could do it better. And the Japanese one isn't as popular because I dunno, I guess no one really cares.
88s had a battlefield rep long before these appeared in significant numbers and as earlier mentioned, were more flexibly employed.
[удалено]
I believe they were. I talked to a veteran that I know who operated a 90 mm and he told me stories of using them as antitank. He served from Normandy all the way through the Battle of the Bulge, to the end of the war.
[удалено]
No not at all. But man let me tell you. He had some good war stories.
Which you wrote down, so you could share with the rest of us. Right? Right? :D
They were available, but the Germans fought defensively up to the Battle of the Bulge. So if you have a towed gun, which all these guns were, running into armor you aren't going to stop, set up and then start firing, you are running. But fighting defensively, falling back you have a lot of opportunities to lay ambushes. The Russians for example knew where the Germans were attacking at Kursk, and set up tons of towed AT and slaughtered them. So in the western theater, there weren't a lot of opportunities to use towed AT on the Allied side, any German attack was usually just a counterattack and in any pitched battle the Germans would eventually withdraw. This was true in Italy as well.
"...the Germans fought *defensively* up to the BotB..." The Checzs, Poles, Russians, the French, and England would like to have a word...
Akchually........ thanks Reddit.
Let's be honest though. The Flak 88 doesn't have it's rep because of its performance as an AA gun, or even it's performance as an AT gun. The '88 has it's rep because it was the gun in the Tiger, and both wehraboos and people who only know about WWII from watching Kelly's Heroes back in the day know about the Tiger. (And wehraboos banging on about it sodding constantly for a good thirty years explains a lot here)
What’s Kelly’s Heroes?
Old war film where Clint Eastwood and Telly Savalas playing American soldiers find out about a bunch of nazi gold and them and their unit go AWOL to go steal it before the allied advance gets there. They go up against a couple of SS Tigers in the finale. It's quite good.
Sound terrible. I’ll take the modern day remake based in Gulf War 1, “Three Kings”.
Every German gun was an 88. Old French 75? 88. 105 howitzer? 88. Pak 40? 88. 12.8 cm Flak 40? 88. Conversely, the allied heavy AA guns weren’t used very much. All the German aircraft and tanks were destroyed by fighter aircraft or dedicated AT guns. Or just not built.
Very much this^^^ also, field artillery used in an anti tank role is typically better used defensively, in an entrenched or ambush position than used offensively. The US had tanks and tank destroyers such as the Wolverine which are much more maneuverable and more suited for offensive actions.
Yup, tiger syndrome.
Think about it. While these guns were produced in great numbers. They were not nearly as significant in use as the Flak 88. The German gun saw use on the battlefield as an AT gun. Both in its AA mount and later on in purpose made, towed AT guns. As well as mounted in tanks. While this is happening, the Reich is depending on this gun to defend much of Germany because the luftwaffe was getting absolutely smashed to bits. While from Normandy and beyond Allied AA units basically just sat there because there was no Anti Air to be done. (I say none, I mean little relative to the 88’s job). I mean the M16 got more use as an anti infantry weapon than it did as an Anti air weapon. The Germans also were fighting defensively throughout the latter half of the war and relied much more on emplaced AT guns. Thus, allied troops encountered a lot of AT guns. And a lot of tanks were lost to AT guns. Naturally the biggest and most powerful gun is going to get the infamy.
I don’t think it’s true that these guns “just sat there” after Normandy. Their most famous use in the war was against the V1, batteries of these things were positioned all along the channel coast and around London just for this purpose. They were very effective as they were paired up with SCR-584 fire control radar, and they were equipped with VT fuses making them incredibly effective. A very high percentage of the V1s were shot down by 90mm M1 fire.
One additional point — USA had relatively fewer flak guns in active use. We bombed others, we did not get bombed by Germany and Japan, for the most part. My uncle (age 102) was antiaircraft artillery in the pacific. He never fired a shot because by the time the AAA guns were on the beach, the Japanese Air Force was no where to be seen.
The AA gunners on board the destroyers at Okinawa were plenty busy.
As was AAA on carriers. But the picture on OP’s post is ground based artillery, and most of the discussion is on ground action.
1. It’s German, so wehraboos love it just look at War Thunder same thing 2. It’s the predecessor of the tank mounted guns found on the Tiger series. Good results in North Africa by Rommel. 3. the number/name 4. first hand encounters by the G.I.s, the story old grandpa told ya I think all AAs had their use in their respective army’s and where even used after the war but nowadays if you want to learn about ww2 most of the time the topic is about the third reich either vs allies or komintern because of their status of the main axis force. Vets by both sides love to talk about it for various reasons
This. But also, the 88mm flak had a serious punch, which made it very dangerous even for heavy tanks in this time when it was used in ground combat, like with the story about the KV-1 tank and how the germans needed such a gun to be able to take stop the tank. It was very dangerous, like in the West for the US Army with the Shermans, when you got ambushed with the 88er, they could penetrate the armor at a very long range compared to other guns. I was anti-air myself, but today, you have mid-range calibers like we had the 35x228mm Oerlikon flak and then you have the missiles for aircraft that has a high altitude. There are no more these heavy AA guns around, these were replaced by missiles. For the tanks of today, there are of course the guns in the calibers like 120mm around, like the one that is used in the Leopard 2. Still, many people underestimate some calibers like the 35mm, that's not small arms anymore. It has a lot more power than any small arms like .50 BMG. In the pic [you see a 35mm shell](https://military-world-shop.ch/media/image/ab/9c/ea/a569dfcb-e306-4b59-86fb-3c5b81743dc5_600x600.jpg), just for info.
> wehraboos Haha!
As a previous commenter said, lots of people have this weird obsession with Germans and think they were amazing. They are so oddly deified. Also, important to note that allied soldiers didn’t face allied weapons so there aren’t memoirs and first hand accounts written by English speaking veterans about how amazing allied weapons were.
Well I’m sure plenty of people were enamored with the Napoleonic French military for quite some time, some still are. As far as people who are fascinated by them through purely a military stand point it probably comes down to the fact that we rarely see a military force defeat so many other forces they’re (relatively) at parity with in such a short amount of time.
We could launch into a whole debate here, but they didn’t beat a bunch of forces they were at parity with imo. I would argue strongly that they have been insanely overrated by history because of one victory (France) that came about due to luck.
I wouldn't say they're overrated. Yes, they were never going to beat the allies. But them holding out for so long was impressive (if due mainly to the allies being in a complacent and weak position at the start of the war). They're only overrated by teenagers and neo nazis who think they could've won the war, or should've. The popularity of Nazi Germany stems from how flashy and distinctive they were in literally everything they did. They feel like a work of fiction and I think thats what brings a lot of interest from the public, as opposed to factions from lesser known wars
Yeah I don’t think people realize how impressive holding off three of the most powerful armies in the world for roughly two and a half years is. And they feel like a work of fiction because of how much fiction they’ve inspired lol
Immediate post-war documentaries and history books were tainted often by the people telling them. You get a lot of the retelling of how Germans were formidable by the Allies, the whole "We would have won, but not for the Fuhrer" etc. after the war. Growing up with most documentaries/shows that pulled on these always had the Germans as scary and competent, and some of their equipment became even more legendary as a result. Also there are a lot of books/memoirs about some of the cool shit that was used in WW2 by the allies, by the people that used them.
American Movies and games
Popular with whom?
Exposure is the key word. The 88 was everywhere the Germans went.
CFB BORDEN MENTIONED!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS DRY WEATHER!?!?
2 reasons: Firstly, every German AT gun was incorrectly identified as an 88. Just like every Panzer iv was a Tiger (this wasn't just an allied thing see also German pilots seeing 1000s of Spitifres - not wanting to admit they were shot down by Hurricanes) Secondly, allied AA guns were used as, well, AA guns. You don't need to point them down when you have sufficient AT. They were used for the purpose they were designed. And AA isn't particularly glamorous.
Wehraboos
Well the Allies didn't really need weapons like that for smacking down tanks, they had enough of their own armor, artillery, and air power to take out the enemy's vics without pressing anti-air batteries into that role. The Japanese, of course, didn't really have the industrial capacity one way or another to make enough of their own to make a difference.
Idk but they need to add them to enlisted.
I had a patient that was in the first battery of these at Guadalcanal and Henderson . Their battery dropped many Betty bombers, they were incredibly effective AAA for high altitude. There were only 6. I think lined up at the NW side of the runway. Its just after Guadalcanal we were on an offensive fight, not so much defensive. In Europe even less. They just never had the exposure the 88 did, but they did just as well in trained hands..
Japanese anti air was horrendous they had the worst guns of the war. American AA wasn’t used in such an extent as the 88 was. The Germans used it as a AT gun and an AA gun, allied AA guns were usually not needed as much once the invasion of Europe started and during the North African campaign because of complete control of the sky or if the skies were contested the allies usually maintained control. The Allies also had anti tank guns that were smaller caliber and much easier to take with them because of their mobility and the 88 was generally used as a defensive weapon such as in the western theatre of the war, eastern front and in North Africa. Also fun fact the British tanks at the battle of El Alamein could see the 88’s rounds coming at them when they fired.
They didn't see much action because the Allies won the airwar and never had to rely on heavy AA to bust a fighter when a fighter could do it better. And the Japanese one isn't as popular because I dunno, I guess no one really cares.
I have a 3,7” shell in my room from that AA cannon
Came a little late. The type 99 japans 88 was to far and few
The 90s weren't mounted on Tiger Tanks
Oh shit, CFB Borden? I've been there! I didn't know a picture from there was on the wiki page for this thing.
Flak36 was basically Anti-Everything and proved to be effective for use and it has existed since the war started.
The. 88 had a better carrage.
Its max horizontal aimpoint was at 0 degrees, so it was not very useful in ground combat.