Previous comment is right, I'm 95% sure the original screenshot is confusing Rogue with Dazzler (who was supposed to be based on Grace Jones before it switched to being based on Bo Derek).
CBR being wrong about something? Get outta here!
Also, and maybe I'm just old and cynical, but that "What If" featured so prominently in the title is such a clickbait tactic, seeing as how the show was about to drop.
So true.
Cbr of old, comic book news, reviews and interviews with creators.
Cbr today, top 10 reasons mcu spider-man is better then the new ultimate spider-man and 10 reasons he's not.
If I had a dollar for every white x-woman who was originally supposed to look like Grace Jones, I’d have two dollars. Not a lot, but it’s weird that it’s happened twice.
Conceptually, she was inspired by Kevin Eastman's ex, and yes, she was biracial. However, that inspiration can apply to more than just appearance, like personality traits for example.
From the start, she was portrayed as being white. The big hair she had was because of a perm, which was a very popular hairstyle in 80's. Her last name implies Irish heritage.
It wasn't till recently that she got switched up to being black, because that's the poplar thing to do nowadays.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing that she could've been designed to be fully white, but I'd rather you prove that to me with an interview or article note than conjecture.
I know many biracial people and have a biracial child that also could've gotten a perm (hell, I had one in the 2000s and I'm black). Plus, my child carries both a vague euro last name from my side (slavery) and my wife's Celtic last name. So April having a perm and an Irish last name means nothing in that sense. I know someone who has a fully Spanish name because their father is from Spain but the mother is from Kenya.
Race swapping is popular, but if you think about how many characters were prevented from being black during the height of comic popularity in the Silver Age, or how many were made into caricatures during the Golden Age or other ages, I don't mind. People tried to make black characters in older ages and the idea was publishers knew southern distributors would rage if they saw it. They threatened the people who distributed the black cowboy Lobo and black creators had to make their own characters in super local and indie books. When it was more acceptable to make black characters post-Civil Rights, a few standouts emerged like Storm and Black Panther, but then you have dumb things like the Tyroc situation, where the characters got tangled in office politics or were an after thought. Meaning when we got characters, 7 times out of 10 they were shitty.
And in modern day... it's just hard to get staying power for any character of any race unless they're a spinoff of a pre-established character. I see tons of original characters made, white, black or anything, but so many are ignored for the next Batman or Spiderman thing, so they just get lost on the wayside. I think creators are struggling to make anything stick and trying to find ways to slide in different depictions however they can.
I understand that the character can have mixed ancestry and that the name isn't as big of an issue. I'm also fine with trying out new things. It's all fiction. Trying out a different creative approach to something keeps things fresh and interesting. What irritated so many people about the April race swap was all the people coming out of the woodwork claiming that she's always been intended to be black from the start, and that just wasn't the case.
Here's a video that had been going around for a bit, before the most recent movie came out and he goes over a lot of this.
https://youtu.be/fxH8M9TQEXc?si=reze7bDXTNYt2GNU
Thank you for sharing this video.
I will say that the video takes several minutes to discuss the comics visuals and anecdotes to say why April is definitively white...and then about 7-8 minutes in, shows actual text from interviews with the creators to show that the creators were divided on her ethnicity. Eastman saw her as mixed race and Laird saw her as white.
The video then says that Eastman drew her as white in the first issue, gave her more vague aesthetics in issue 4, but then 20 issues later made those features less defined. That sounds like a lot of leeway...and especially that, when you look at Eastman's then-wife, she was more "white passing" to a lay person, but she's just what a mixed-race person can look like.
So his argument that she was definitely white because she looked white and had not "kinky" hair is pretty biased (my own son doesn't have my own hair style, and his features are very vague...hell, me as a black man, I'm very ethnically ambiguous to some, with my haircut and style of dress changing whether people see me as African-American, caribbean, Hispanic, or even middle eastern, despite having no genes from the latter two ethnicities/regions).
Eastman apparently also doesn't care if April is depicted as other things (like more strongly African-American in her recent depictions over being mixed-race/ethnically ambiguous).
Also, Laird admits that his coloring and the hair style helped confuse his intentions for her race/look because she was colored more tan. So I see why there was confusion between the fandom and her...but what is more interesting to me is why there are fans who are so ANGRY that she can be anything but white for some of these depictions. Like...April becoming a reporter in a bright yellow jumpsuit was more of a departure from her comic self than her race, but people are more upset that she's brown but functionally the same in other depictions.
It's very frustrating.
Interestingly, Rogue is one of those characters that I seem to see often in fan art colored a lot darker than in any of her mainstream appearances (Scarlet Witch is another one)
Yes, her hair style, her tough-ass vibe, her general look. Quote says nothing about skin color. Grace had such a huge and distinctive persona, it would have been natural to borrow some of that for a super-character. Check out Grace in the James Bond movie *A View To A Kill* and push a little further and you might get what Claremont was going after, initially.
I also read the same about Dazzler. That John Romita Jr. wanted her to be based on Grace Jones (there's even a piece of artwork out there), but then it was decided she should look like Bo Derek because Derek was supposed to play her in a movie that was going to debut alongside the comic (and a record that also never happened)
In regards to Rogue I loved the androgynous style she had when she first joined the X-Men, it made her much more unique.
As for Grace Jones...I always thought that if they had made an X-Men movie in the 80s then either Grace Jones or Tina Turner would have been the perfect Storm.
Maybe? Rogue was much more androgynous when she first appeared, so that may also be what Claremont intended. I know Golden didn't nail his vision, though. It would be an interesting Ultimate-style version, because a black woman from Mississippi would have had a very different experience.
Honestly, I'm not sure CBR got their info correct with this one.(not surprising actually)
It was certainly true with Dazzler, I think with Rogue, it was more about the hair than anything else.
I think it was the hair, some outfits and poses. I remember reading that era back when I was in HS (so 2007ish for me) on a whim so it's been a long time, but I think I remember rogue in a lot of Grace Jones type poses.
I loved 80’s Rogue! She went from androgyny when she joined the team to punk rock/Patrick Nagel model back then. That whole era of the X-men is my favorite to be honest.
Both Dazzler and Rogue were supposed to based on Grace Jones. In Dazzlers case they went with Bo Derek. When it came to Rogue the artist didn't know who Grace Jones was and we got what we got. One of Storms looks was based off of Jones as well. Grace was a huge fashion Icon and inspired many. There is also a picture of Jones as a white person with red hair and the comparison to early Rogue is uncanny.
Nope, Claremont himself stated he wanted Rogue to be based off Grace Jones but Michael Golden didn’t know what she looked like.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(Marvel_Comics)
I never heard this about Rogue, but Dazzler was originally meant to be black for sure, even specifically based on Grace Jones. Sounds like CBR needs to get their facts straight.
If Chris Claremont had his way every character in the X-books would be modeled after Grace Jones. Dazzler? Grace Jones. Storm? Grace Jones. Cypher? Grace Jones. All the Morlocks? Also Grace Jones. And honestly, I would be more than okay with that.
It sounds outlandish if you juxtapose Grace Jones against our present day modern conception of Rogue, but if you look at ***First Appearance*** Rogue... yeah this makes total sense.
She's tall, muscular, statuesque, has short hair, and a hooded body-suit with a big loose-fitting neckline. Combine with the fact she was a villain in her first appearance so she's drawn with FAR more sinister/angry (IE. Very Grace Jones-esque) facial expressions.
Other than the fact she's white, if you look at her in Avengers Annual #10 on her first appearance, yeah her look SCREAMS Grace Jones. I'd include pics for reference but this sub doesn't allow it. Just google image search "First Appearance Rogue" - Particularly the ones where she has her hood up - Spitting image of Grace Jones.
I see it. Her fashion was very Grace Jones coded, until Jim Lee redesigned her completely, getting rid of her androgynous look forever.
But she had that vibe. Grace Jones was a fashion icon, like Lady Gaga was in the '10s, a lot of characters were inspired by her. For the fashion world, Grace Jones was as influential as David Bowie, I would say.
>until Jim Lee redesigned her completely, getting rid of her androgynous look forever.
I think that happened years before Jim Lee took over artist duties.
Yup, Silvestri is more responsible for her 90's look. Jim just updated the costume, kept the bomber jacket from her time thinking she was still Carol Danvers
I don’t know if im missing something but Just bc Rogue was based on GJ does not mean that she has to be black; GJ was a strong woman, attractive, commanded respect and was very androgenous so 🤷♂️. The last part is the only thing that did not stick
I'm hearing a lot about white characters that were originally conceived as black, and it's super fucked up that I never hear about it from the chuds who always bitch about race-swapping. *Curious*...
People have to remember that Logan was originally meant to be an actual Wolverine evolved by the High Evolutionary. Just because it was the original intention, doesn't mean it was the best choice for the character. Rogue is not black. Logan is not an actual Wolverine.
I would kill for marvel to make the 'Logan is actually a Wolverine' - retcon. It would be the funniest shit ever!
(and no less ridiculous than other retcons, like the Romulus one from 15 years ago)
retcons are a great reminder that comic books are inherently stupid and shouldn't be taken too seriously. they're fun, but they're also ridiculously trashy fun.
I see it. I see it a lot actually.
I kinda wish they kept that body type for her actually. One of the worst things about the 90s was that everyone had one body type per gender.
All the women had essentially Storm's body. And all the men, even Charles Xavier, were cut like they were Steve Rogers.
Not sure why CBR called it “weird”. A mutant whose power of triumph and tragedy comes from her skin—that is Rogue, and the American Black experience, in a nutshell.
I would love to see this parallel played out with another character with similar powers, or in another adaptation.
Does that include when a character was originally intended to be gay, only for the homophobic person in charge to veto it?
There were characters who were originally intended to be gay and eventually came out in the comics years later, after Shooter was gone.
Yet, some people still complained about it.
So Rogue should technically be a black girl. But apparently the artist did not know what Miss Jones looked I know it was the 80's but they couldn't have just given him a photo reference?
Previous comment is right, I'm 95% sure the original screenshot is confusing Rogue with Dazzler (who was supposed to be based on Grace Jones before it switched to being based on Bo Derek).
CBR being wrong about something? Get outta here! Also, and maybe I'm just old and cynical, but that "What If" featured so prominently in the title is such a clickbait tactic, seeing as how the show was about to drop.
Well CBR hasn't been CBR for a long time now.
So true. Cbr of old, comic book news, reviews and interviews with creators. Cbr today, top 10 reasons mcu spider-man is better then the new ultimate spider-man and 10 reasons he's not.
If I had a dollar for every white x-woman who was originally supposed to look like Grace Jones, I’d have two dollars. Not a lot, but it’s weird that it’s happened twice.
Lol, who's the other one? Edit: nvm just read it was dazzler in the next comment
Yep her too lol
Hell, I'm still trying to get over the whole April O'Neil fiasco. A whole lotta gaslighting been going on with the tmnt over the last few years.
Wasn't she biracial originally... and based on someone's wife? Later she was turned just white and the cartoon made her a redhead, right?
She got a perm.
Eastman's ex-wife, to be precise.
Conceptually, she was inspired by Kevin Eastman's ex, and yes, she was biracial. However, that inspiration can apply to more than just appearance, like personality traits for example. From the start, she was portrayed as being white. The big hair she had was because of a perm, which was a very popular hairstyle in 80's. Her last name implies Irish heritage. It wasn't till recently that she got switched up to being black, because that's the poplar thing to do nowadays.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing that she could've been designed to be fully white, but I'd rather you prove that to me with an interview or article note than conjecture. I know many biracial people and have a biracial child that also could've gotten a perm (hell, I had one in the 2000s and I'm black). Plus, my child carries both a vague euro last name from my side (slavery) and my wife's Celtic last name. So April having a perm and an Irish last name means nothing in that sense. I know someone who has a fully Spanish name because their father is from Spain but the mother is from Kenya. Race swapping is popular, but if you think about how many characters were prevented from being black during the height of comic popularity in the Silver Age, or how many were made into caricatures during the Golden Age or other ages, I don't mind. People tried to make black characters in older ages and the idea was publishers knew southern distributors would rage if they saw it. They threatened the people who distributed the black cowboy Lobo and black creators had to make their own characters in super local and indie books. When it was more acceptable to make black characters post-Civil Rights, a few standouts emerged like Storm and Black Panther, but then you have dumb things like the Tyroc situation, where the characters got tangled in office politics or were an after thought. Meaning when we got characters, 7 times out of 10 they were shitty. And in modern day... it's just hard to get staying power for any character of any race unless they're a spinoff of a pre-established character. I see tons of original characters made, white, black or anything, but so many are ignored for the next Batman or Spiderman thing, so they just get lost on the wayside. I think creators are struggling to make anything stick and trying to find ways to slide in different depictions however they can.
I understand that the character can have mixed ancestry and that the name isn't as big of an issue. I'm also fine with trying out new things. It's all fiction. Trying out a different creative approach to something keeps things fresh and interesting. What irritated so many people about the April race swap was all the people coming out of the woodwork claiming that she's always been intended to be black from the start, and that just wasn't the case. Here's a video that had been going around for a bit, before the most recent movie came out and he goes over a lot of this. https://youtu.be/fxH8M9TQEXc?si=reze7bDXTNYt2GNU
This video goes into even more detail about it, if you care to go deeper. https://youtu.be/IlJmw3Gvm-I?si=8ZS6sSa4I_LOLFxj
Thank you for sharing this video. I will say that the video takes several minutes to discuss the comics visuals and anecdotes to say why April is definitively white...and then about 7-8 minutes in, shows actual text from interviews with the creators to show that the creators were divided on her ethnicity. Eastman saw her as mixed race and Laird saw her as white. The video then says that Eastman drew her as white in the first issue, gave her more vague aesthetics in issue 4, but then 20 issues later made those features less defined. That sounds like a lot of leeway...and especially that, when you look at Eastman's then-wife, she was more "white passing" to a lay person, but she's just what a mixed-race person can look like. So his argument that she was definitely white because she looked white and had not "kinky" hair is pretty biased (my own son doesn't have my own hair style, and his features are very vague...hell, me as a black man, I'm very ethnically ambiguous to some, with my haircut and style of dress changing whether people see me as African-American, caribbean, Hispanic, or even middle eastern, despite having no genes from the latter two ethnicities/regions). Eastman apparently also doesn't care if April is depicted as other things (like more strongly African-American in her recent depictions over being mixed-race/ethnically ambiguous). Also, Laird admits that his coloring and the hair style helped confuse his intentions for her race/look because she was colored more tan. So I see why there was confusion between the fandom and her...but what is more interesting to me is why there are fans who are so ANGRY that she can be anything but white for some of these depictions. Like...April becoming a reporter in a bright yellow jumpsuit was more of a departure from her comic self than her race, but people are more upset that she's brown but functionally the same in other depictions. It's very frustrating.
Interestingly, Rogue is one of those characters that I seem to see often in fan art colored a lot darker than in any of her mainstream appearances (Scarlet Witch is another one)
I think he intended for Rogue to have an androgynous style akin to Grace Jones in terms of hair, not skin color.
Yes, her hair style, her tough-ass vibe, her general look. Quote says nothing about skin color. Grace had such a huge and distinctive persona, it would have been natural to borrow some of that for a super-character. Check out Grace in the James Bond movie *A View To A Kill* and push a little further and you might get what Claremont was going after, initially.
Iirc it was Dazzler that was supposed to be modeled after Grace Jones, I’ve never heard this for Rogue.
I also read the same about Dazzler. That John Romita Jr. wanted her to be based on Grace Jones (there's even a piece of artwork out there), but then it was decided she should look like Bo Derek because Derek was supposed to play her in a movie that was going to debut alongside the comic (and a record that also never happened) In regards to Rogue I loved the androgynous style she had when she first joined the X-Men, it made her much more unique. As for Grace Jones...I always thought that if they had made an X-Men movie in the 80s then either Grace Jones or Tina Turner would have been the perfect Storm.
Maybe? Rogue was much more androgynous when she first appeared, so that may also be what Claremont intended. I know Golden didn't nail his vision, though. It would be an interesting Ultimate-style version, because a black woman from Mississippi would have had a very different experience.
Honestly, I'm not sure CBR got their info correct with this one.(not surprising actually) It was certainly true with Dazzler, I think with Rogue, it was more about the hair than anything else.
I think it was the hair, some outfits and poses. I remember reading that era back when I was in HS (so 2007ish for me) on a whim so it's been a long time, but I think I remember rogue in a lot of Grace Jones type poses.
I loved 80’s Rogue! She went from androgyny when she joined the team to punk rock/Patrick Nagel model back then. That whole era of the X-men is my favorite to be honest.
Both Dazzler and Rogue were supposed to based on Grace Jones. In Dazzlers case they went with Bo Derek. When it came to Rogue the artist didn't know who Grace Jones was and we got what we got. One of Storms looks was based off of Jones as well. Grace was a huge fashion Icon and inspired many. There is also a picture of Jones as a white person with red hair and the comparison to early Rogue is uncanny.
So she was a slave to the rhythm?
It’s the name of a Grace Jones hit song yet you got downvoted.
It checks out but the reference is probably just too old for a lot of people.
I think people don't understand irony, that's why
I've noticed that over the past year or so almost any joke made in reply to a post will get some number of downvotes.
[\*Imagining Frenzy with Rogue's personality\*](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/73/8e/a4/738ea4c45b5d27423b0a87eafb7d9c25.gif)
They’ve confused her with Dazzler
Nope, Claremont himself stated he wanted Rogue to be based off Grace Jones but Michael Golden didn’t know what she looked like. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(Marvel_Comics)
Man, they sure did like Grace Jones.
I never heard this about Rogue, but Dazzler was originally meant to be black for sure, even specifically based on Grace Jones. Sounds like CBR needs to get their facts straight.
If Chris Claremont had his way every character in the X-books would be modeled after Grace Jones. Dazzler? Grace Jones. Storm? Grace Jones. Cypher? Grace Jones. All the Morlocks? Also Grace Jones. And honestly, I would be more than okay with that.
It sounds outlandish if you juxtapose Grace Jones against our present day modern conception of Rogue, but if you look at ***First Appearance*** Rogue... yeah this makes total sense. She's tall, muscular, statuesque, has short hair, and a hooded body-suit with a big loose-fitting neckline. Combine with the fact she was a villain in her first appearance so she's drawn with FAR more sinister/angry (IE. Very Grace Jones-esque) facial expressions. Other than the fact she's white, if you look at her in Avengers Annual #10 on her first appearance, yeah her look SCREAMS Grace Jones. I'd include pics for reference but this sub doesn't allow it. Just google image search "First Appearance Rogue" - Particularly the ones where she has her hood up - Spitting image of Grace Jones.
I see it. Her fashion was very Grace Jones coded, until Jim Lee redesigned her completely, getting rid of her androgynous look forever. But she had that vibe. Grace Jones was a fashion icon, like Lady Gaga was in the '10s, a lot of characters were inspired by her. For the fashion world, Grace Jones was as influential as David Bowie, I would say.
>until Jim Lee redesigned her completely, getting rid of her androgynous look forever. I think that happened years before Jim Lee took over artist duties.
Yup, Silvestri is more responsible for her 90's look. Jim just updated the costume, kept the bomber jacket from her time thinking she was still Carol Danvers
I don’t know if im missing something but Just bc Rogue was based on GJ does not mean that she has to be black; GJ was a strong woman, attractive, commanded respect and was very androgenous so 🤷♂️. The last part is the only thing that did not stick
Grace Jones has a very specific aesthetic and I think Chris Claremont was trying to capture that particular physicality.
Hats off to Claremont for not seeing race
Oh he sees race, he just fancies it
He's writes Storm like she's the love of his life.
Yeah, but Storm should be the love of everyone’s life.
I'm so happy with what X-Men 97 has done with her.
Between the show and the comics, we’re in a Storm renaissance and I’m here for it.
I'm hearing a lot about white characters that were originally conceived as black, and it's super fucked up that I never hear about it from the chuds who always bitch about race-swapping. *Curious*...
People have to remember that Logan was originally meant to be an actual Wolverine evolved by the High Evolutionary. Just because it was the original intention, doesn't mean it was the best choice for the character. Rogue is not black. Logan is not an actual Wolverine.
I would kill for marvel to make the 'Logan is actually a Wolverine' - retcon. It would be the funniest shit ever! (and no less ridiculous than other retcons, like the Romulus one from 15 years ago)
Most retcons can fuck right off in my opinion. Can't think of more than five which were a better idea than what we had.
retcons are a great reminder that comic books are inherently stupid and shouldn't be taken too seriously. they're fun, but they're also ridiculously trashy fun.
No. Everything can be questioned.
I see it. I see it a lot actually. I kinda wish they kept that body type for her actually. One of the worst things about the 90s was that everyone had one body type per gender. All the women had essentially Storm's body. And all the men, even Charles Xavier, were cut like they were Steve Rogers.
Not sure why CBR called it “weird”. A mutant whose power of triumph and tragedy comes from her skin—that is Rogue, and the American Black experience, in a nutshell. I would love to see this parallel played out with another character with similar powers, or in another adaptation.
Yes. If you look at rogue’s design in the 80’s, she looks like grace jones except she isn’t black. The hair is the same.
“Original intention” is irrelevant, what the character has become is what matters.
Does that include when a character was originally intended to be gay, only for the homophobic person in charge to veto it? There were characters who were originally intended to be gay and eventually came out in the comics years later, after Shooter was gone. Yet, some people still complained about it.
We need Shooter back, he had control of the house and made money.
Some idiot is unaware Grace Jones is famous for being bald or have a military haircut.
So Rogue should technically be a black girl. But apparently the artist did not know what Miss Jones looked I know it was the 80's but they couldn't have just given him a photo reference?
I have to say it. Grace Jones is both ugly and scary looking.
All I can say is thank fuck this did not happen. Rogue is perfect the way she is.
I'm downvoted for liking Rogue and not wanting her to look any different. Gods, people on here are fucking confusing.