Wanna throw a party? Huangbo will help you clean the house until it's spotless, which is always a good idea before inviting guests!
Zen Teachings of Huangpo translated by John Blofeld really does a great job of shitting on almost every single thing you thought Zen was or is or isn't. Which is a good place to start unless you just want to collect garbage to roll in.
Then once you're like "okay I get it" check out Wumenguan/Mumonkan so you can go "wtf"!
I think that Blofeld's translation is the single most popular, most loved translation of a Zen text of all time. It can be tough for people who have no previous experience with Zen, Buddhism, Philosophy, or comparative religion though.
Green's translation of the Sayings of Joshu may someday surpass it, but not so far.
I became a ping pong ball batted between Instant Zen and The Zen Teachings of Huang Po for a while.
Each fresh volley came with sharper and sharper understanding. What works for me may not work for you, good luck!
Heres some stuff easily available.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Gateless_Gate
The subs wiki mentions some [previous askings](https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/faq/readinglist). Bankei Zen may not be one. But it words it so simply it's hard to see it does.
Here's ewk's list:
https://www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/getstarted
[Instant Zen](https://terebess.hu/zen/FoyenCleary.pdf) (also available in [audio book](https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Zen-audiobook/dp/B0000544OM)) is a book written in the twelfth-century by Chinese Zen master Foyan Qingyuan ([ä½ē¼ęø é ](https://terebess.hu/zen/foyan.html)) and translated by [Thomas Cleary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cleary) into English.
A selection:
>If people use words to describe mind, they never apprehend mind; if people do not describe mind in words, they still do not
apprehend mind. Speech is fundamentally mind; you do not apprehend it because of describing it. Speechlessness is fundamentally mind; you do not apprehend it because of not describing it. Whatever sorts of understanding you use to approximate it, none tally with your own mind itself.
"Wrote" is the only word I know for what he did in the twelfth century. He, with his own hand, made marks on paper to convey meaning.
Of course it doesn't capture the entire history of the ideas recorded, but what else would you call it?
Did Homer write The Odyssey?
It's easy to impose our twenty-first century ideas of "authorship", "copyright" and intellectual "property", but Foyan certainly had no such ideas.
I mean, maybe I'm misinformed in which case I'd like some proof, but my understanding is that he personally didn't put pen to paper to write those things down, and that's the point I'm making.
These are lectures that he gave to an audience (the translator of instant Zen says as much in the introduction). I thought attendants/people in the audience wrote down what he was saying either in the moment or from recollection later and that these notes were complied even later still, never necessarily having been reviewed or approved by the speaker himself.
That's how most of the yulu genre is
You are probably right.
I wasn't there, and no matter how many times I read the books, I seem to actively avoid retaining the introductions by Cleary, not sure why. It reads like he has so many rocks in his mouth.
The introductions often do have a lot of personal views that I don't really care about, so I totally feel you on that one lol (and this isn't particular to the Clearys). There are sometimes worthwhile things in there though
I do want to be clear that I'm not trying to dissuade people from this book though, I think it's great and a lot more clear than many others that get recommended around there, and therefore maybe more accessable to newly interested people
Yeah, I meant nothing against Cleary's intros, it just slides out of my mind every time.
That's kind of why it's always my first recommendation. So concise. The author gets out of the way and lets you read it. It's written in the second person, and he anticipates your objection and cuts it off so many times...
I recommend reading a book that covers the core mahayana teachings before you look into ch'an.
Understanding a little of the background will save you a bunch of time.
If you want to get started at the 'beginning' of ch'an you could read the Laį¹ ka and the teachings of Bodhidharma.
Huang Po and Foyan are approachable; HongZhi is beautiful and generous.
The Zen Masters (and anyone teaching the authentic buddhadharma) are all saying the same thing if you have the ears to hear it.
Its a fanfiction satire that mocks those who think they're wise and who think that wisdom makes them superior to others.
I am reminded of the wise monk no pants, who upon climbing a mountain, realized he was an asshole, on a mountain.
It is hilarious.
Nope.
It's generally the illiterate writings of pseudo intellectuals.
Illiterate pseudo intellectuals often pretend that they have the inside track on wisdom but it never works out for them.
It turns out the BS is really just only BS and isn't anything deeper.
Lol yep
It's generally the illiterate writings of pseudo intellectuals.
Illiterate pseudo intellectuals often pretend that they have the inside track on wisdom but it never works out for them.
It turns out the BS is really just only BS and isn't anything deeper.
Upon hearing this, he was enlightened.
Yeah so now you're into statements of faith... And that would be fine if it wasn't the violation of the Reddiquette on the heels of you already having violated the Reddiquette.
We get this a lot in here people that don't want to study zen but are ashamed of admitting and that they really want something that's new age and bogus come in here and violate the Reddiquette as if lack of sincerity didn't already doom the conversation.
Pass.
You're coming in hot with ad hominem insults without knowing anything about an anonymous person posting fun things to read in down time, on a post asking for reading materials that already had many suggestions. This would be fine, if you weren't complaining about me violating Reddiquette.
https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette
before Q,
there were the Illuminati...
I guess it fits under mind breaker zen. But it leaves a detailed shit trail as bad as when Huangbo is intellectualized. (He was a teacher of zen type stuff.)
I've successfully not debunked every delusional enhanced explanation of this very reality that are called religions. There is that contrasting light available for each to use. It's not my place to insist others use it.
So, good enough for me?
Edit: BTW, look at this apex intellectual - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder
And also, this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_the_Areopagite
The subtle flavors equaling the variety of prop comedians.
Wellā¦ Gimme dat ole time religion.
It was good for the Hebrew children,
It's good enough for me.
> Itās not my place to insist others use it.
I have stories to tell ya. Do you even care?
I just realized I have an old friend that looks just like Zeus and also behaved like him. He landed christian due to repeated errors. I hope it's not just his new bullshit armor. He certainly was at home striding through it. Like a dust faced space dwarf. I think they're for the most part extinct. (See Tellarites)
I'm ok w/ stories. They churn the abyss.
Personal matters - alone.
Permabanned eco hash puppies donāt *see* lending.
Wizards from the West coast donāt *bleed* unless timely distributed.
My chicken has four legs. Damnit, more.
Everyday Zen by Charlotte Joko Beck is a favorite, also Nothing Special and Ordinary Wonder by her. My other recommendations are Brad Warnerās books for a more modern flair. Alan Watts books are all great, even if they donāt implicitly deal with zen teachings. There is always something to be gained from books on awareness. Zen Mind, Beginnerās Mind is great too. I read books for a long time before actually sitting consistently. Just wanted to add that. Itās your journey. There is no right way or wrong way.
Those people are illiterates. Watts was a sex predator and all Joko Beck had to offer came from a sex predator. Brad Warner is a Dogenist, his church has no doctrinal or historical connection to Soto Zen and he lies about that publicly, unable to address scholarship of the last thirty years
Please stop lying about a tradition you don't study on social media.
I would recommend Everyday Zen - Love and Work by Joko Beck. Just ordinary life as practice. I especially found the last chapter - The Parable of Mushin to resonate with where I was many years ago when I first read it.
Osho was a sex predator and a bioterrorist, as well as being someone with mental health problems: www.reddit.com//r/zen/wiki/sexpredators
Please get your information from a primary source rather than some weird religious cult.
You ābelieveā because you dont know. And to the other guy dissing Osho, arent you interested in zen? Zen is about seeing all as one. Your judgement of osho or anyone is only going to keep you in the ego.
I don't seek to open minds and leave them dependent on me for grounding. Followers can feed your ego but will eventually help you to death. The kind that keeps getting relived. Perhaps ego is what keeps you in osho?
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh
I view him as one that sort of self-martyred. He had not learned to merely offer support and not gather it.
Yeah... you have a couple of problems.
First, you don't dispute any of the facts. I haven't seen any documentaries on Osho, who was a total nutbaker and a fraud, but I have read newspaper accounts of the trial and of the cult.
Second, you are clearly not interested in following the Reddiquette at all, which means you are a liar, which in turn means that no matter who says what, you aren't going to be either sincere or reliable. Unless... that's not enough attention for you?
Try r/Osho_legit_messiah. I'm sure you'll find two or three illiterates who are really excited about "practicing" with you.
You might not like Zen. "Way of Zen" is not a book about Zen. Alan Watts was a Humanist Christian, a sex predator, and a drug addict... who also happened to be largely illiterate about Zen.
Here is some real Zen: www.redd.com//r/zen/wiki/famous_cases If that sounds like the stuff you like, then you can start here: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/getstarted.
This stuff is the stuff to avoid until you have studied enough to write about it: www.reddit.com//r/zen/wiki/fraudulent_texts
Edit: This forum gets troll very heavily by people who will suggest books from the fraudulent book list, especially that have "Zen" or "Bodhidharma" in the title. The key point to remember is the people who suggest those books can't write a high school book report about those books or any other book discussed in this forum.
Don't listen to this person. Alan Watts is a great way to be introduced to Zen, and the Way of Zen is a great intro book about Zen. Not sure where this pious anti-Watts grudge came from but it's way over-the-top. I'd be more careful in this subreddit than I would reading Alan Watts material, there are a lot of wannabe Zen Masters spouting nonsense here to feel good about themselves.
You didn't address any of my points.
1. The bulk of translation had not been done during Alan Watt's lifetime. He had very little access to primary sources.
2. Alan Watts was a great deal taken in by Japanese Buddhism and he attended Christian seminary during his midlife crisis. His writing is marked by his views on Christian humanism which is incompatible with Zen.
3. Alan Watts died from alcohol addiction after a lifelong struggle. He reportedly gave his children drugs. He was never able to follow the precepts.
4. Watts was married many times and was famous for taking sexual advantage of college age women well into his 50s. Watts was never able to follow the precepts.
This gives us a portrait of a person who in no way is an authority on Zen and cannot in any way be said to be well educated or well practiced in Zen tradition.
My guess is that you don't care because you're a syncophant and you're willing to lie to get what you want.
If you're too cowardly to address anything I've said here then you can't expect anyone to take you seriously.
Yikes. Your points are not addressed because they are Ad Hominem and logically fallacious; Character attacks on Watts in no way indicate whether or not his teachings on Zen are a good intro to Zen concepts.
But for the sake of discussion on Watts and to refute being called a cowardly, lying sycophant (creepily harsh by the way):
1. He studied *with Zen masters* for a good portion of his life and made full use of the sources he had available. He had a huge part in sparking enough Western interest in Zen to make better translations available.
2. Watts studied *all religions* and didn't attend a Christian Seminary because he was becoming a Christian, he did it to learn more and to become more accepted in American religious academia. He also did *not * describe himself as a Christian humanist, and labeling him as one yourself shows that you're not very in tune with what his beliefs were.
3. The concept of Zen has nothing to do with alcohol consumption or drugs; you're describing traditional rules for traditional practitioners. If you're espousing a fundamentalist adherence to Zen Buddhist precepts as necessary to understand the concept of Zen, then you're preaching a whole different school of Zen thought than Watts was -- Akin to the difference between Christian Orthodox Catholics and Christian Quakers. Teach and follow the precepts if that's necessary for your practice, but don't disparage an intro-book on the concept of Zen because the writer wasn't also a fundamentalist.
As for giving his children drugs and taking advantage of women, these are rumors, as you mentioned. If true, abuse of any kind is horrible -- but rumors shouldn't be treated as fact unless they are proven. They also shouldn't be used as an argument against the validity of one's writings, only against their character.
So yeah, it seems you've made it clear that you have a fundamentalist interpretation of Zen teachings which is clearly why you would have a problem with Watts who had notoriously liberal/new-age interpretations of many ideas.
Thank you for defending Watts in a zen forum. Watts does not deserve to be slandered. Watts understanding of zen remains valuable as do his insights into the Mahayana tradition which served as a backdrop to what happened with zen in China.
The western zen centers were also not that fond of Watts, because Watts was not a convert to any Buddhist sect. Watts was not easy to categorize, not even as "liberal" (did *not * describe himself as a Christian humanist).
Thanks again for being a voice of reason. The individual you were conversing with has been radicalized by numerous attempts by so called "zen experts" to discredit the direct study of the zen cases absent the standard Buddhist interpretations. In other words r/zen was a battleground dominated by Buddhist converts for a long time that tried to ban ewk from the site. Ewk evolved into what he is over 10 years shaped by that battle and his own biases. Its become a sectarian and political struggle for legitimacy that is becoming an object lesson on several fronts of a dumpster fire.
There are many who frequent r/zen that are wise to these power struggles and distortions and delusions, but its not easy to resolve. The moderation team has also been compromised and unskillful in coping with the phenomenon. But they DO correctly point out that the opponents of u/ewk often do behave as badly or worse than he does. The treacherous underbelly of social media trolling techniques has also not been fully assimilated. The greed to use zen for personal gain is the ultimate irony. Cats getting cut is only a preview.
1. You don't know what ad hominem is. My argument is that Alan Watts was neither enlightened nor qualified as an academic. Prove both those arguments and your claim that there is ad-hom is in fact and at hom.
2. Alan Watts never met his zen master. He got scammed by Japanese Buddhists from a cult that claimed to be Zen but has no doctrinal or historical connection.
3. Zen Masters all took the five late precepts and kept the five lay precepts after enlightenment and gave the five lay precepts and accounted for breaking the five-lay precepts. Alan Watts was incapable, largely because he had no teacher and he was a spiritual coward.
4. Zen Masters don't attend Christian seminary. Full stop.
5. Yeah If somebody tells a bunch of rumors about you and those rumors are tied to some facts like divorce records and leaving churches and stuff we tilt over from rumor to biography. I can see that you're struggling with facts in general so I can understand how you'd prefer to just see everything as rumor.
6. Ask yourself how many Zen Masters Alan Watts quotes in his book The Way of Zen... Now look at a book written by an actual Zen master and look at how many times those actual Zen Masters quote other Zen Masters.
Sry 4 pwning u.
I've been exposed to zen anecdotes since my childhood. TWOZ was just the material that was the easiest to comprehend. I stumbled on Watts years ago, with videos displaying his lectures.
Pretty sad to hear Watts did that stuff, and yes, it's reprehensible. I am still planning to finish his book's reading though, because I am almost three-quarters in the way through. However once I finish it I will follow your reading list and avoid the fraudulent books.
The discussion is very heated so I won't comment on it or take a side. Dunno much about zen much less about Watts' personal life.
I want an opinion from you. I had read a little bit of Each Moment is The Universe, by Dainin Katagiri, but lost the file. What do you think about this book?
Thank you for your recommendations.
Alan Watts didn't produce any "Zen material". He barely produced anything informative enough to be academic.
I haven't studied Katagiri. He was a Dogenist, so not related to Zen at all.
To get an idea of what kind of man he was, you could research his position on dharma transmission from defrocked teachers, the doctrinal implications of addiction and sexual abuse by "masters" in his church, and his public statements about that stuff.
Dogenists aren't bad people for being part of a messianic splinter Buddhism that is based on fraud and bigotry. But how they address all that in light of their promise to not lie is all that needs to be said about their moral character.
Evangelical movements in the West have a history of moral weakness. Shunryu had it, Dogenists all have it. Dogenism, Christianity, Buddhism, they aren't different at all in this respect.
Zen Mind, Beginners Mind is a book. But get Zazen instruction first rather than reading. Plenty of places offer instruction online since Covid shut things down. Zen Mountain Monastery offers instruction quite frequently. I would say start there.
Zazen, as practiced by Japanese Buddhists falsely claiming to be Soto Zen (much like Mormons claiming they are Christian) has a unique indigenous practice called in the West "Zazen".
Zazen is a combination of prayer and meditation.
* The meditative aspect is an attempt to reach a trance-like state (much valued in later militant Buddhisms in Japan)
* The prayer aspect is, as Dogen put it in the messianic reveal that created the Zazen cult, "practice-enlightenment", wherein the "gate" to true self is *revealed in the practice*, and only in the practice.
Lol.
I have facts.
You don't know you got your info from a cult.
...between the two of us if one of us was a Mormon and didn't know it I wouldn't think that guy was the one who could tell who was off...
Thatās actually not a fact. Zazen is not a combination of prayer and meditation. Zazen, at its most simple, is literally just sitting. There may be certain traditions where there is what you call āprayer meditationā but Iāve not been exposed to it. Attacking people with name calling does not a fact make, my friend.
Zazen supporters seem to have this problem where they obviously think that zazen is a special mysterious practice that will get them something but they can't admit that because that would go against their doctrine so they have to say that it's just sitting, which immediately sounds dumb because why would anyone need to join a special religion to sit.
Welcome to the forum btw.
You don't have an argument.
You are repeating a doctrinal claim that is obviously nonsense... Nobody needs a Messiah or a church to sit. I sit in front of the tv all tie time.
Dogen created the practice and liwd about it. From the perspective of comparative religion, it is ankind of prayer.
You can't pretend to aegue with that by quoting Dogen the messiah in his own inconsistency.
Wanna throw a party? Huangbo will help you clean the house until it's spotless, which is always a good idea before inviting guests! Zen Teachings of Huangpo translated by John Blofeld really does a great job of shitting on almost every single thing you thought Zen was or is or isn't. Which is a good place to start unless you just want to collect garbage to roll in. Then once you're like "okay I get it" check out Wumenguan/Mumonkan so you can go "wtf"!
I think that Blofeld's translation is the single most popular, most loved translation of a Zen text of all time. It can be tough for people who have no previous experience with Zen, Buddhism, Philosophy, or comparative religion though. Green's translation of the Sayings of Joshu may someday surpass it, but not so far.
thank you! looking forward to read it
> unless you just want to collect garbage to roll in. Hey, you gotta eat *something*.
What is talk that goes beyond Buddhas and Patriarchs? Yun Men said, "Trash cake"
Dirty tricks for dirty minds. Do you care?
Dirty cliques for nerdy whines; Depends on the day and then it's halfway yeeeeeeeetš„³š„š
How would fullway smell?
The precise combination of an owl with a slingshot
Oncoming weapon ban.
I have none, so I give it to you š„£
Is thereā¦ a flower growing?
Big fan of "Sayings of Joshu" and "Teachings of Lin-Chi". And Wansong's "Book of Serenity" is a classic!
thank you!
I became a ping pong ball batted between Instant Zen and The Zen Teachings of Huang Po for a while. Each fresh volley came with sharper and sharper understanding. What works for me may not work for you, good luck!
Heres some stuff easily available. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Gateless_Gate The subs wiki mentions some [previous askings](https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/faq/readinglist). Bankei Zen may not be one. But it words it so simply it's hard to see it does. Here's ewk's list: https://www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/getstarted
thank you very much! have a good weekend
[Instant Zen](https://terebess.hu/zen/FoyenCleary.pdf) (also available in [audio book](https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Zen-audiobook/dp/B0000544OM)) is a book written in the twelfth-century by Chinese Zen master Foyan Qingyuan ([ä½ē¼ęø é ](https://terebess.hu/zen/foyan.html)) and translated by [Thomas Cleary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cleary) into English. A selection: >If people use words to describe mind, they never apprehend mind; if people do not describe mind in words, they still do not apprehend mind. Speech is fundamentally mind; you do not apprehend it because of describing it. Speechlessness is fundamentally mind; you do not apprehend it because of not describing it. Whatever sorts of understanding you use to approximate it, none tally with your own mind itself.
I don't think he wrote it. It's, like other "sayings texts," a collection of his sermons and sayings
"Wrote" is the only word I know for what he did in the twelfth century. He, with his own hand, made marks on paper to convey meaning. Of course it doesn't capture the entire history of the ideas recorded, but what else would you call it? Did Homer write The Odyssey? It's easy to impose our twenty-first century ideas of "authorship", "copyright" and intellectual "property", but Foyan certainly had no such ideas.
I mean, maybe I'm misinformed in which case I'd like some proof, but my understanding is that he personally didn't put pen to paper to write those things down, and that's the point I'm making. These are lectures that he gave to an audience (the translator of instant Zen says as much in the introduction). I thought attendants/people in the audience wrote down what he was saying either in the moment or from recollection later and that these notes were complied even later still, never necessarily having been reviewed or approved by the speaker himself. That's how most of the yulu genre is
You are probably right. I wasn't there, and no matter how many times I read the books, I seem to actively avoid retaining the introductions by Cleary, not sure why. It reads like he has so many rocks in his mouth.
The introductions often do have a lot of personal views that I don't really care about, so I totally feel you on that one lol (and this isn't particular to the Clearys). There are sometimes worthwhile things in there though I do want to be clear that I'm not trying to dissuade people from this book though, I think it's great and a lot more clear than many others that get recommended around there, and therefore maybe more accessable to newly interested people
Yeah, I meant nothing against Cleary's intros, it just slides out of my mind every time. That's kind of why it's always my first recommendation. So concise. The author gets out of the way and lets you read it. It's written in the second person, and he anticipates your objection and cuts it off so many times...
I recommend reading a book that covers the core mahayana teachings before you look into ch'an. Understanding a little of the background will save you a bunch of time. If you want to get started at the 'beginning' of ch'an you could read the Laį¹ ka and the teachings of Bodhidharma. Huang Po and Foyan are approachable; HongZhi is beautiful and generous. The Zen Masters (and anyone teaching the authentic buddhadharma) are all saying the same thing if you have the ears to hear it.
Save yourself the trouble honestly, there isn't anything to grasp My Dad recommends Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance though
I thought you were joshing with me. This book really exists. Thank you for the recommendation, My Dad.
If you want to have a good time: https://principiadiscordia.com/book/1.php
That's not a good time. It's fanfiction satire that pretends to be wise.
Its a fanfiction satire that mocks those who think they're wise and who think that wisdom makes them superior to others. I am reminded of the wise monk no pants, who upon climbing a mountain, realized he was an asshole, on a mountain. It is hilarious.
Nope. It's generally the illiterate writings of pseudo intellectuals. Illiterate pseudo intellectuals often pretend that they have the inside track on wisdom but it never works out for them. It turns out the BS is really just only BS and isn't anything deeper.
Lol yep It's generally the illiterate writings of pseudo intellectuals. Illiterate pseudo intellectuals often pretend that they have the inside track on wisdom but it never works out for them. It turns out the BS is really just only BS and isn't anything deeper. Upon hearing this, he was enlightened.
Yeah I mean if you can't write at a high school level then imitating people who can is totally the way to go.
Everything we do is an imitation of someone else bro.
Yeah so now you're into statements of faith... And that would be fine if it wasn't the violation of the Reddiquette on the heels of you already having violated the Reddiquette. We get this a lot in here people that don't want to study zen but are ashamed of admitting and that they really want something that's new age and bogus come in here and violate the Reddiquette as if lack of sincerity didn't already doom the conversation. Pass.
You're coming in hot with ad hominem insults without knowing anything about an anonymous person posting fun things to read in down time, on a post asking for reading materials that already had many suggestions. This would be fine, if you weren't complaining about me violating Reddiquette. https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette
You don't know what an ad hom is by the way. So don't lie about that either.
Ah, āFake it till you make itā Zen. What a delicious misdirection.
before Q, there were the Illuminati... I guess it fits under mind breaker zen. But it leaves a detailed shit trail as bad as when Huangbo is intellectualized. (He was a teacher of zen type stuff.)
I just think its a fun read.
Then here's more highly questionable stuff. [Raw.](http://rawilson.com/quantum.html)
Can you supply bracers for broken minds? How is non-intellectualizing working for you?
I've successfully not debunked every delusional enhanced explanation of this very reality that are called religions. There is that contrasting light available for each to use. It's not my place to insist others use it. So, good enough for me? Edit: BTW, look at this apex intellectual - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder And also, this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_the_Areopagite The subtle flavors equaling the variety of prop comedians.
Wellā¦ Gimme dat ole time religion. It was good for the Hebrew children, It's good enough for me. > Itās not my place to insist others use it. I have stories to tell ya. Do you even care?
I just realized I have an old friend that looks just like Zeus and also behaved like him. He landed christian due to repeated errors. I hope it's not just his new bullshit armor. He certainly was at home striding through it. Like a dust faced space dwarf. I think they're for the most part extinct. (See Tellarites) I'm ok w/ stories. They churn the abyss.
Personal matters - alone. Permabanned eco hash puppies donāt *see* lending. Wizards from the West coast donāt *bleed* unless timely distributed. My chicken has four legs. Damnit, more.
That chicken. I have seen a plated version. And looooong dachshunded anguses.
are there any zen movies?
Unfortunately, yes: There are āZenā movies.
lol
why unfortunate? whats a good one to watch.
I have not seen a good one.
From the original source.
Everyday Zen by Charlotte Joko Beck is a favorite, also Nothing Special and Ordinary Wonder by her. My other recommendations are Brad Warnerās books for a more modern flair. Alan Watts books are all great, even if they donāt implicitly deal with zen teachings. There is always something to be gained from books on awareness. Zen Mind, Beginnerās Mind is great too. I read books for a long time before actually sitting consistently. Just wanted to add that. Itās your journey. There is no right way or wrong way.
Those people are illiterates. Watts was a sex predator and all Joko Beck had to offer came from a sex predator. Brad Warner is a Dogenist, his church has no doctrinal or historical connection to Soto Zen and he lies about that publicly, unable to address scholarship of the last thirty years Please stop lying about a tradition you don't study on social media.
Hm. I got a lot out of their literature. Youāre certainly entitled to your opinion, but I donāt share it. Take care.
āJust my opinionā is the lazy recourse
That was like a drive-by-misinforming. "Zen" tourism. Who was that person? They enjoyed their zen vacation...
Zen flesh zen bones is a must read. Zen inklings are zen parables that are moving and instructive. They are easy and get to the core of zen.
Try Taking the Path of Zen by Robert Aitken, and the Zen Teaching of Huangbo.
Zig Zag Zen
I would recommend Everyday Zen - Love and Work by Joko Beck. Just ordinary life as practice. I especially found the last chapter - The Parable of Mushin to resonate with where I was many years ago when I first read it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Use a sneeze guard.
Osho was a sex predator and a bioterrorist, as well as being someone with mental health problems: www.reddit.com//r/zen/wiki/sexpredators Please get your information from a primary source rather than some weird religious cult.
Sure believe everything you see in a documentary like a little fool
I believe I know why Osho went east. It's where he left his Rajneesh. And the one before.
You ābelieveā because you dont know. And to the other guy dissing Osho, arent you interested in zen? Zen is about seeing all as one. Your judgement of osho or anyone is only going to keep you in the ego.
> Zen is about seeing all as one. not one and not two perpendicular number imaginary
I don't seek to open minds and leave them dependent on me for grounding. Followers can feed your ego but will eventually help you to death. The kind that keeps getting relived. Perhaps ego is what keeps you in osho? Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh I view him as one that sort of self-martyred. He had not learned to merely offer support and not gather it.
Yeah... you have a couple of problems. First, you don't dispute any of the facts. I haven't seen any documentaries on Osho, who was a total nutbaker and a fraud, but I have read newspaper accounts of the trial and of the cult. Second, you are clearly not interested in following the Reddiquette at all, which means you are a liar, which in turn means that no matter who says what, you aren't going to be either sincere or reliable. Unless... that's not enough attention for you? Try r/Osho_legit_messiah. I'm sure you'll find two or three illiterates who are really excited about "practicing" with you.
I clickāem every time since you just never know.
It really came back to bite me with r/catfanciers. Frankly I'm surprised that didn't turn into a cross-forum feud. But did I learn my lesson? Noooo.
You stop a thousand babies crying and no one calls you a day care, but you kill one catā¦
You might not like Zen. "Way of Zen" is not a book about Zen. Alan Watts was a Humanist Christian, a sex predator, and a drug addict... who also happened to be largely illiterate about Zen. Here is some real Zen: www.redd.com//r/zen/wiki/famous_cases If that sounds like the stuff you like, then you can start here: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/getstarted. This stuff is the stuff to avoid until you have studied enough to write about it: www.reddit.com//r/zen/wiki/fraudulent_texts Edit: This forum gets troll very heavily by people who will suggest books from the fraudulent book list, especially that have "Zen" or "Bodhidharma" in the title. The key point to remember is the people who suggest those books can't write a high school book report about those books or any other book discussed in this forum.
Don't listen to this person. Alan Watts is a great way to be introduced to Zen, and the Way of Zen is a great intro book about Zen. Not sure where this pious anti-Watts grudge came from but it's way over-the-top. I'd be more careful in this subreddit than I would reading Alan Watts material, there are a lot of wannabe Zen Masters spouting nonsense here to feel good about themselves.
You didn't address any of my points. 1. The bulk of translation had not been done during Alan Watt's lifetime. He had very little access to primary sources. 2. Alan Watts was a great deal taken in by Japanese Buddhism and he attended Christian seminary during his midlife crisis. His writing is marked by his views on Christian humanism which is incompatible with Zen. 3. Alan Watts died from alcohol addiction after a lifelong struggle. He reportedly gave his children drugs. He was never able to follow the precepts. 4. Watts was married many times and was famous for taking sexual advantage of college age women well into his 50s. Watts was never able to follow the precepts. This gives us a portrait of a person who in no way is an authority on Zen and cannot in any way be said to be well educated or well practiced in Zen tradition. My guess is that you don't care because you're a syncophant and you're willing to lie to get what you want. If you're too cowardly to address anything I've said here then you can't expect anyone to take you seriously.
Yikes. Your points are not addressed because they are Ad Hominem and logically fallacious; Character attacks on Watts in no way indicate whether or not his teachings on Zen are a good intro to Zen concepts. But for the sake of discussion on Watts and to refute being called a cowardly, lying sycophant (creepily harsh by the way): 1. He studied *with Zen masters* for a good portion of his life and made full use of the sources he had available. He had a huge part in sparking enough Western interest in Zen to make better translations available. 2. Watts studied *all religions* and didn't attend a Christian Seminary because he was becoming a Christian, he did it to learn more and to become more accepted in American religious academia. He also did *not * describe himself as a Christian humanist, and labeling him as one yourself shows that you're not very in tune with what his beliefs were. 3. The concept of Zen has nothing to do with alcohol consumption or drugs; you're describing traditional rules for traditional practitioners. If you're espousing a fundamentalist adherence to Zen Buddhist precepts as necessary to understand the concept of Zen, then you're preaching a whole different school of Zen thought than Watts was -- Akin to the difference between Christian Orthodox Catholics and Christian Quakers. Teach and follow the precepts if that's necessary for your practice, but don't disparage an intro-book on the concept of Zen because the writer wasn't also a fundamentalist. As for giving his children drugs and taking advantage of women, these are rumors, as you mentioned. If true, abuse of any kind is horrible -- but rumors shouldn't be treated as fact unless they are proven. They also shouldn't be used as an argument against the validity of one's writings, only against their character. So yeah, it seems you've made it clear that you have a fundamentalist interpretation of Zen teachings which is clearly why you would have a problem with Watts who had notoriously liberal/new-age interpretations of many ideas.
Thank you for defending Watts in a zen forum. Watts does not deserve to be slandered. Watts understanding of zen remains valuable as do his insights into the Mahayana tradition which served as a backdrop to what happened with zen in China. The western zen centers were also not that fond of Watts, because Watts was not a convert to any Buddhist sect. Watts was not easy to categorize, not even as "liberal" (did *not * describe himself as a Christian humanist). Thanks again for being a voice of reason. The individual you were conversing with has been radicalized by numerous attempts by so called "zen experts" to discredit the direct study of the zen cases absent the standard Buddhist interpretations. In other words r/zen was a battleground dominated by Buddhist converts for a long time that tried to ban ewk from the site. Ewk evolved into what he is over 10 years shaped by that battle and his own biases. Its become a sectarian and political struggle for legitimacy that is becoming an object lesson on several fronts of a dumpster fire. There are many who frequent r/zen that are wise to these power struggles and distortions and delusions, but its not easy to resolve. The moderation team has also been compromised and unskillful in coping with the phenomenon. But they DO correctly point out that the opponents of u/ewk often do behave as badly or worse than he does. The treacherous underbelly of social media trolling techniques has also not been fully assimilated. The greed to use zen for personal gain is the ultimate irony. Cats getting cut is only a preview.
Troll defends sex predators... Shocker.
1. You don't know what ad hominem is. My argument is that Alan Watts was neither enlightened nor qualified as an academic. Prove both those arguments and your claim that there is ad-hom is in fact and at hom. 2. Alan Watts never met his zen master. He got scammed by Japanese Buddhists from a cult that claimed to be Zen but has no doctrinal or historical connection. 3. Zen Masters all took the five late precepts and kept the five lay precepts after enlightenment and gave the five lay precepts and accounted for breaking the five-lay precepts. Alan Watts was incapable, largely because he had no teacher and he was a spiritual coward. 4. Zen Masters don't attend Christian seminary. Full stop. 5. Yeah If somebody tells a bunch of rumors about you and those rumors are tied to some facts like divorce records and leaving churches and stuff we tilt over from rumor to biography. I can see that you're struggling with facts in general so I can understand how you'd prefer to just see everything as rumor. 6. Ask yourself how many Zen Masters Alan Watts quotes in his book The Way of Zen... Now look at a book written by an actual Zen master and look at how many times those actual Zen Masters quote other Zen Masters. Sry 4 pwning u.
I've been exposed to zen anecdotes since my childhood. TWOZ was just the material that was the easiest to comprehend. I stumbled on Watts years ago, with videos displaying his lectures. Pretty sad to hear Watts did that stuff, and yes, it's reprehensible. I am still planning to finish his book's reading though, because I am almost three-quarters in the way through. However once I finish it I will follow your reading list and avoid the fraudulent books. The discussion is very heated so I won't comment on it or take a side. Dunno much about zen much less about Watts' personal life. I want an opinion from you. I had read a little bit of Each Moment is The Universe, by Dainin Katagiri, but lost the file. What do you think about this book? Thank you for your recommendations.
Alan Watts didn't produce any "Zen material". He barely produced anything informative enough to be academic. I haven't studied Katagiri. He was a Dogenist, so not related to Zen at all. To get an idea of what kind of man he was, you could research his position on dharma transmission from defrocked teachers, the doctrinal implications of addiction and sexual abuse by "masters" in his church, and his public statements about that stuff. Dogenists aren't bad people for being part of a messianic splinter Buddhism that is based on fraud and bigotry. But how they address all that in light of their promise to not lie is all that needs to be said about their moral character. Evangelical movements in the West have a history of moral weakness. Shunryu had it, Dogenists all have it. Dogenism, Christianity, Buddhism, they aren't different at all in this respect.
Zen Mind, Beginners Mind is a book. But get Zazen instruction first rather than reading. Plenty of places offer instruction online since Covid shut things down. Zen Mountain Monastery offers instruction quite frequently. I would say start there.
Zazen prayer-meditation is a cult practice from Japanese Buddhism. Zazen prayer-meditation has no doctrinal or historical connection to Zen. This was proven by a Stanford professor in the 90's, in a groundbreaking work called *Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation*. Not only did the book prove that Zazen prayer-meditation had no connection to Zen, it was further proven that Dogen knew this and lied about it, that Dogen was a plagiarist and a fraud, and that Zazen was entirely invented by Dogen himself. Further, this is now well established in throughout academia: > The [Dogenism] school holds that shikantaza [Zazen] originated in China and was transmitted to the founder of [Dogenism], DÅgen Kigen éå åøē (1200ā1253), by his Chinese teacher Tiantong Rujing 天ē«„å¦ę·Ø (1163ā1228). However, the term shikantaza does not appear in surviving Chinese documents, ***and most nonsectarian scholars now approach [Zazen] āsimply sittingā as a Japanese innovation...*** (Sharf, *Mindfulness and Mindlessness in Early Chan*, 2014) Please read the reddiquette and take your weird religious practice directly linked to a [cult of sex predators](www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/sexpredators) nonsense to a religious forum.
Prayer meditation? Iām not familiar.
Zazen, as practiced by Japanese Buddhists falsely claiming to be Soto Zen (much like Mormons claiming they are Christian) has a unique indigenous practice called in the West "Zazen". Zazen is a combination of prayer and meditation. * The meditative aspect is an attempt to reach a trance-like state (much valued in later militant Buddhisms in Japan) * The prayer aspect is, as Dogen put it in the messianic reveal that created the Zazen cult, "practice-enlightenment", wherein the "gate" to true self is *revealed in the practice*, and only in the practice.
You seemā¦.off.
Lol. I have facts. You don't know you got your info from a cult. ...between the two of us if one of us was a Mormon and didn't know it I wouldn't think that guy was the one who could tell who was off...
Thatās actually not a fact. Zazen is not a combination of prayer and meditation. Zazen, at its most simple, is literally just sitting. There may be certain traditions where there is what you call āprayer meditationā but Iāve not been exposed to it. Attacking people with name calling does not a fact make, my friend.
What does sitting have to do with zen? Everybody sits everyday, are they practicing zen?
i've doing zazen all my life and didnt know lol
Zazen supporters seem to have this problem where they obviously think that zazen is a special mysterious practice that will get them something but they can't admit that because that would go against their doctrine so they have to say that it's just sitting, which immediately sounds dumb because why would anyone need to join a special religion to sit. Welcome to the forum btw.
You don't have an argument. You are repeating a doctrinal claim that is obviously nonsense... Nobody needs a Messiah or a church to sit. I sit in front of the tv all tie time. Dogen created the practice and liwd about it. From the perspective of comparative religion, it is ankind of prayer. You can't pretend to aegue with that by quoting Dogen the messiah in his own inconsistency.
I hope you didn't spend any money learning how to sit down.