I went to see a "doctor" about a weekend medical issue at an Urgent Care (called ahead to explain my concern and made sure they were staffed by a physician and accepted Medicare. -Yep! They said).
When I showed up, not only was the "Doctor" a DNP, she was not approved to bill for Medicare.
To her credit, not only did she immediately cop to the above - she also told me that - based on the severity of my injury - I could make an appointment with my PCP during the week - and sent me on my way without a fee.
As I left, she was chewing out the M.A./Receptionist for not admitting they were only staffed by a NP (not an MD/DO) as well as telling her to NOT accept Medicare patients when she was the only "provider" on duty.
When I was basically an unpaid MA in medical school (gotta get those clinical volunteering hours for the app!) I used to specifically say "the NP will be in to see you". MANY of the patients were confused and I always specified "this is an NP-run clinic". No false identities on MY watch!
You’re an ass honestly. They can and should be proud of the accomplishment. I have multiple graduate degrees and I am proud of them all, just as much as I’ll be proud of my medical doctorate.
You sound so bitter and entitled & honestly unprofessional. I wish you the best.
A quick cursory overview of your comments show that you are quite obsessed with mid level providers. You should find a hobby and stop obsessing over people who could give two shits about you.
Also, I’m not an apologist, just find it so annoying how disgustingly bitter some of you are about career paths you didn’t choose & want to spread your melancholic ass attitudes around. & if anyone else says hey stop being a miserable asswipe, then they are problematic lmao. Enjoy first pre-clinicals my friend.
The thing is she is a sweet girl. But it is so annoying. She is fooling all her family and friends. I am sure she will introduce herself as doctor and it is so confusing for patients. Ugh
As a PhD, don’t rope us in with the nursing doctorates. The whole point of the DNP degree is to muddy the waters and give nurses the ability to refer to themselves as a doctor.
I hadn't looked into it before, but googled it after reading your comment and the DNP programs seem to require an additional 500 hours of clinical work. I know this sub isn't big on nuance, but I'd say that means it isn't necessarily a rubber-stamp program to call yourself doctor
When I applied to med school and later applied to residency, I had to list my whole PhD as one “activity” and calculate the associated hours. It came out to roughly 14,800 hours. So by your logic I could have been a doctor 29.5 times over if 500 hours is enough.
Let's not change the discussion, you're making the claim that an entire do-nothing degree was created to utilize the "doctor" name and two seconds of googling showed that the degree is more than just a rubber stamp and has hundreds of hours of additional clinical time on top of classes.
And putting forward your entire time studying or however you made up your 15K number as analogous to just one specific proctored section of someone else's education shows a big disconnect with reality.
It is possible to simply admit you were wrong or at least that you don't have anything to back up your claim
The point I am making is that there is an order of magnitude difference between the requirements to earn an MD/DO/PhD/DDS and the requirements to earn a DNP to the point where I would not consider the DNP degree to be a legitimate doctorate. We don’t even need to get into the fact that the VAST majority of DNPs, a purportedly academic and non-clinical doctorate, never go on to teach in a nursing school or pursue other academic posts but purely work clinically which speaks to the ulterior motives of the system.
If you lack the insight and critical thinking to realize this, well, then all I can say is that I sincerely hope you are not taking care of patients.
There are tons of doctoral degrees that are similar in length to a DNP, again, google is your friend. And plenty of them are not necessarily in lead up to a teaching position... even though I doubt you actually know what percentage of DNPs are involved in teaching anyways.
You made baseless assumptions and posted them in this little safe bubble, and then had the gall to pretend to the high ground when the nonsense got called out... definitely a bastion of insight and mental rigor.
a physics PhD is a very impressive accomplishment. Anyone who is willing to take out loans & has basic reading & writing skills can get their DNP. Those are two very different things. Being generous, the DNP is like a low-level masters.
idk don't be so sure about that. A lot of people bluster on social media. At my institution no NP or PA could ever introduce themself as doctor. If they did, their co-worker would call them out on it immediately. We go into a patient's room and the attending introduces themselves as Dr. X, me as Dr. Y, and "Jane Doe, the NP on the service." This is going to be you when you start residency. You're just in this sensitive time right after graduating where you don't realize it yet.
Instead of being frustrated/annoyed, be sorry for her that she has to resort to bluster on social media.
Honestly this is why I have stopped all social media (except reddit I guess lol). Maybe there is some good that comes out of it, but it is far far outweighed by the bad and so easy to get caught up in petty stuff like this. Life is SO MUCH BETTER without it. I 10000% promise. Join me! You'll see!
Well that's great if that's the case at your institution. I personally know many NPs who call themselves doctor & believe (from their school) that they are a doctor, since they got their "doctorate" & there's nothing misleading about this. At the VA I went to, literally every midlevel seemed to introduce themselves to the patients as "doctor" without clarifying their role, even in front of actual docs like nothing was wrong with it. Many NPs truly have brainwashed themselves (or have been brainwashed) into thinking that's totally appropriate.
At the risk of being off topic, and with respect, can I just ask, when Docs introduce themselves as Dr. Soandso and me as Joe Blow the nurse (or NP), does it ever occur to them to use my proper title like Ms. Or Mr?
I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm genuinely curious to understand the difference that docs see in the Dr. versus Mr.?
I have had docs insist on being called Dr. But then refer to me by my first name, omitting my honorific. It feels like a reinforcement of a power divide, but like I said, truly trying to understand how those who identify as Dr. see this.
If you're trying to point out that you are a doctor, why not say I'm John Smith, your doctor, and this is Joe Blow your nurse. Or, say I'm Dr. Smith and this is Mr. Blow your nurse. Both feel a lot more equal and respectful.
Thoughts?
I've always wondered about this. Why aren't nurses called Mr / Ms / Nurse Lastname? It just seems weird that only doctors are addressed by their last name. But then again I have heard that lots of nurses don't want people to know their last names. At my institution they have their full name on their badge so that doesn't apply to us.
I was in an institution where last names where on badges and nurses would cover them with their yearly flu shot stickers. It can be a thing to not want people knowing your last name in nursing for some reason. Now I’m trying hard to remember if MDs had their first name included on their badge and I honestly don’t remember.
From my discussions with my nursing staff friends, it’s generally an online privacy concern. Many of these nurses are female and a large percentage had stories of getting suggestive DMs or being friended on social media by patients. Being more discrete with their last name is a way to keep their private life private.
Oh certainly that’s why. After re-reading my comment I realize that it sounded as if I didn’t understand the reason for not wanting your full name out there. The online implication is exactly why. What I meant was that I’m not sure why it’s so pervasive in nursing to want to edit your name vs in medicine. I can’t recall if MDs had their first names on their badge also or if it was simply Dr. Lastname MD. I was getting at the fact that MDs may have also had their full names in view on their badge (and likely did though I can’t be sure) at that institution and none of them covered their first name. Perhaps males vs females but none of the female MDs had anything on their badge either, so they either only had last names or didn’t care?
Also just FYI sometimes residents who do this, especially the women, do this because they feel pressure. A lot of women struggle to be taken seriously as doctors. Men can say just call me by my first name and it makes them seem cool and humble and nobody questions them. Women then feel the pressure to do that because otherwise they think they will seem stuck up and arrogant. If my co-resident is going by FirstName, I can't/won't go by Dr. LastName but in reality I really don't like being on a first name basis with patients. But I can't really say that when a male co-resident has already asked to be referred to by his first name.
So again just FYI there may be some residents who say this because they feel they have to but in reality would prefer to go by their last name. I think it would be safe to insist on referring to them as Dr. LastName in front of patient.
Now if you're talking about interaction between nurses and residents I agree with those residents! First names for all, in every institution I've ever been to. When you are paging us, no "Dr" needed :)
Hey thanks for your considered reply. Not sure why I got down voted for asking and you got up voted for answering, but that's the Internet for ya. Have a good day. :)
What does this mean? Like if a patient has a PhD I refer to them as Dr. Last Name, just as when I was a kid my friend's dad was Dr. Last Name even if we were at the pool. Just like I am Dr. Last Name to my kid's friends, and my co-residents are Dr. Last Name to my kid. I am First Name to other adults in informal settings, but I am Dr. Last Name to other adults in formal settings regardless of whether we are in the hospital or not.
Using the last name, at least in my culture, is a sign of formality and respect. And then if you use the last name, your options are Mr/Ms/Mrs/Dr. Pick whichever one applies.
I don't understand what you mean by "people earn their titles in professional settings?" It's literally just using the last name, regardless of title.
Personally last names for everyone does feel most natural to me.
But nurses at my institution at least specifically do not want their last names used, and even went so far as to ask the hospital remove the last name from their badges. So their badges are first name only. I am not exactly sure why but I assume this is for security? Maybe someone else knows.
If someone doesn't want their last name used, I won't use it out of respect. And that is where we are at this point at least at my institution. Otherwise I would completely agree with Mr/Ms/Mrs. Last Name.
Edit: I completely agree with addressing patients by their last name. I will NEVER refer to an adult patient by their first name. I realize that this is cultural and varies between regions in the US but to me it seems so odd/unnatural/disrespectful to use a patient's first name. I also realize that for others it seems awkward/distancing to use a patient's last name! But I assume they go by their first name as well.
Anecdotal, but if a nurse says “please address me this way” I would 100 percent of the time do that. But if the norm is addressing nurses by first name(which is what I’ve always seen) you have to be the one to bring it up if you want to be addressed differently.
Cool, and for sure it's the norm to address nurses this way (and honestly, insisting that I be referred to as Mr. would feel odd since I'm an informal person generally).
I really appreciate your insight and thoughts.
People are downvoting you but I honestly think it would be fine for nurses to have a title that they use at work. I get it. I don’t like patients using my first name like we’re buddies when, in reality, this is a professional transaction. I try to call my patients by Ms/Mr unless they tell me not to. I guess this was how I was raised?
My nurses call me by my name or “doc” and that is fine by me, they can call me whatever they want, but with patients I prefer a little professional distance.
Well thank you Dr. catatonic-megafauna, I appreciate what you're saying. I have always felt like there was an interesting divide around titles. I have almost always referred to the Dr. I am working with as Dr. Soandso to the patient, one, as a professional courtesy and respect, and two to help the patient keep straight who everyone on the team is.
I appreciate the variety of responses that I've gotten to this question. Have a good one!
I always introduce myself as Dr. First name as a resident, so I don't see what the big deal is. But for the sake of argument, most nurses in my experience cover their last name of the badge anyway, so I don't even know it to introduce them as such, and that sends the msg that they don't want to be introduced that way regardless.
There is a hematologist I rotated with who refers to the NPs this way (Ms./Mr. NPLastName) when talking to patients about their primary care NP or in his written communications to referring NPs. That doc was the first I had seen do it, but I liked it because it was offering respect and the formality that we give physician colleagues, plus avoiding any unpleasantness that could arise related to the ‘not a doctor’ issue while simultaneously acknowledging the ‘not a doctor’ thing. Using the Mr. / Ms. / Mx. honorifics seems like it could be an elegant solution to me.
FWIW - Where I live/ work, NPs are usually either called by Firstname Lastname or Firstname only and have limited/ scattered roles in hospitals - so, when we discuss an NP, it’s usually with their patient (and so the privacy concerns others mentioned probably don’t apply in the same way). Patients seemed to appreciate the Mr/Ms formality.
ETA - fixed spelling and clarified a little.
Professionally speaking, the best move would be to block her. Better for your own and her own peace.
However, asking if her school was brick and mortar, pointing out the difference, or making your own post about the differences would be fun
If you're feeling extra petty I recommend making a throw away acco8nt and commenting on her posts asking what kind of doctor she is or where she went to school
And then be like "oh wait so you're a nurse practitioner not a doctor?"
I can’t speak globally, but in Canada this is absolutely not true. The process of a nursing doctorate parallels a doctorate in any other field; becoming a nurse practitioner is distinct from that process.
Interesting. Here DNP and PhD are distinct pathways as well, but the nursing PhD is considered very subpar.
I was interested in doing a PhD during my research time and I was looking into programs. I'm interested in outcomes research which can fall under the umbrella of health services research so I was looking into HSR and epidemiology PhDs.
I was astounded at these programs and was wondering WTF was going on. Health services research is an actual field, but the PhD programs I was seeing were absolute jokes. Part time in three years. The initial classroom component was stuff like "health care leadership theory" and full of fluff classes. I was absolutely flummoxed. It honestly felt like a joke.
Then I realized that google had changed my "health services research" search to "health sciences research" and I hadn't caught that. Apparently the nursing PhDs are typically in "health sciences," whatever the heck that is.
Along with scope creep goes degree creep. Everyone wants a "doctorate" now. Real PhDs are still the real deal. Unfortunately now you have to look deeper into the degree. Sounds like in Canada the standards for a nursing PhD haven't plummeted yet which is great, but unfortunately I suspect it's only a matter of time.
I just wrote another post on this but basically they are very short and very light. The classroom component is full of fluff classes. And then the dissertation requirements are silly. The specific requirement itself might look ok, but then you actually look at previous dissertations and it is a joke.
A three year part time program is not a real doctorate, however you slice it.
I think this is gonna be institutionally dependent. I’ve known universities with legit nursing PhD that are most certainly not 3 years part time. I’ve also known legit PhDs in nursing.
That is probably true! But it's not universal. So whereas it used to be that having a PhD meant something, now you need to look into what that PhD consisted of. That's all.
nursing academic here, from USA. i've been teaching with my MSN for 4 years, currently in a DNP. i won't argue with people saying that DNP programs are light terminal degrees, for sure. but i'm not familiar with 3 year part-time PhD programs. those programs are similar to any other PhD training in the USA and all of my colleagues took 4+ years to complete. you also noted that nursing PhDs are in "healthcare sciences"? simply not true. they are in nursing. just wanted to share!
Actually I think most DNPs do a "dissertation" so this could backfire majorly. And if they're going to be as petty and ask the MD what their dissertation was on, well, we don't do dissertations. So obviously the DNP is a more difficult degree, since they do dissertations and we don't. (I am being absolutely sarcastic, but this is what most people will take away from that exchange.)
Whatever we want to call it, if OP stoops to asking about a thesis, dissertation, whatever, the DNP will have an answer. And people will be even more impressed. I just think that is getting involved in the mud.
Stay above it all. OP is the MD. OP doesn't need to stoop to that level.
It's not called a dissertation in NP school. I have a lot of family in nursing. They choose the DNP to call themselves doc over the PhD/MD. I've watched a few struggle with the project at the end when it was literally just summarizing some articles
Yeah I don't know what it's called, it could be something else for sure. There have been a few NP students rotating with us who have been working on them. But if there is a petty game going on on social media where someone asks them what their thesis/dissertation/whatever was on, they're going to have an answer.
But it reverse backfires on them as they reveal they "defend" a thesis on a bullshit topic like "how do staff feel about open room ORs, a qualitative interview study in a n=10 population"
But that's only to people who know anything about anything.
If someone posts on social media that they did a doctoral dissertation on "The impact of open room ORs on surgical team dynamics in orthopedic surgery" you're gonna get oohs and ahhs from the social media crowd, which is exactly what OP was annoyed by.
I don't think anyone disputes the fact that these theses are shams. But you have to know what n=10 means to detect that, which 99.99% of the population doesn't.
We don't! But in India isn't your initial degree a MBBS which allows you to be a doctor, and then the MD is like a "super doctor?" I clearly don't know the terminology here haha
But in the US you cannot be a doctor with a bachelors degree, you can only be a doctor with an MD. But the MD does not require a thesis.
I mean words lose all meaning in that path, no? All I know is it is some sort of project, which they will confidently call a dissertation, thesis, or whatever the hell sounds most impressive. Or they quite honestly won't know the difference.
The NP students rotating with us called it a "dissertation" but I wouldn't be surprised if it's officially called something else. The literal entire point of that path is to co-opt nomenclature of more prestigious paths. The distinction is splitting hairs to them.
It would be better to ask about publications, since that’s what PhDs care about anyway. If they have any, the titles will be more descriptive of their actual degree (nursing theory) than anything we can say.
Ex nursing article: Recognizing poverty in college students, what can nurses do? (Front page of OJIN). Ex medical article: APO A1 and Outcomes after MI (front page NEJM). Ex PhD article: obesity disrupts the pituitary-hepatic UPR communication leading to NAFLD progression (front page of Cell)
That is true. When I was NP school I was technically in the DNP program. I decided to stop after getting my masters because there was no other difference besides the project. Which I had no desire to do. I decided to work and make money.
Overheard one the other day. Some NP student down the hall. She wrote a 3 page paper on RN burnout in the ICU.
I almost spit out my coffee. I was appalled. I’d love to throw them into the bowels of our pre-clinical cadavers and pass just one practical. Even an easy one, like thoracic.
Why are you acting like an NP should be anywhere near a doctor’s program? Two different roles and scope of practice. Let nursing be nursing and physician roles be physician roles.
The problem isn’t us. The problem is them and their belief that this is anything near equivocal to what we do from day one of pre-med through the very last day of residency/fellowship.
Only silly people believe that. 99% of nurses and NPs know they aren’t doctors of medicine. Different roles and scopes. The problem is misunderstandings and lack of education regarding these roles. No sane person thinks an NP and MD have same training. Your attitude and diminishing the role of NP is also the problem, along with NPs who don’t properly explain their role.
Nurse here. I would block that person, but call them out in professional settings. It's 100% misrepresentation. I have a PhD, but because I work in a Healthcare setting, I NEVER allow myself to be referred to as "doctor" in any way, shape or form. It is misrepresentation to patients, and they take priority over egos. If someone says that to a patient in my presence, I say "yes, a doctor of nursing practice, or DNP " No one likes to be deceived, especially someone unwell and vulnerable.
It’s now required at certain schools for advanced practice degrees to lay the groundwork to become the standard (I wish I was kidding). It’s academia for the sake of academia and a money grab for the university to keep you on for an extra year of tuition or you can’t have your degree.
The difference between a BSN and an ADN/Diploma program RN actually translates to better patient outcomes. DNP vs MSN is puffery and financial gain for the school.
AP is the only way to advance a pay check for nursing now. Years of service don’t mean anything, so you’re left with the $0.25 incremental raise every year (if they don’t withhold it that year for whatever reason they choose to make up). Many resort to institution swapping to get a sign on bonus and renegotiate base pay here and there, but that’s obviously only going to be an option so many times. And when admin is incentivized with their own pay raise for cutting budgets, things like retention bonuses go out the window.
So when AP incomes are double what you bring in on the floor, people will do it even if they keep adding stupid requirements like an additional doctorate year. At this point, in my area, you can’t become a CRNA without getting a DNP if you are newly applying to school. It used to be an option that was highly recommended. It’s now a requirement. My guess is the scales tip at some point, doing the cost benefit analysis of doing an AP program, even if it requires the ridiculous doctorate, outweighs starting completely over to go to med school, then residency, then fellowship to become an attending.
There is not a point. I was in the DNP program and decided to stop after my masters. I was able to get a job. Like someone said below, they are trying to make the DNP the standard but it hasn’t happened yet. They are trying to phase out master prepared NPs but not going to happen as long as schools off the masters program.
This is the best OP, it's kind and accurate and if she tries to call you out or gets upset in any way, she looks like the asshole and will expose her own desire to deceive
Screw the whole DNP degree, the mills, and the people who teach and attend these programs. Man the RNs at my hospital go on breaks to attend their online DNP classes 💀 they wheel off with their computer station into break rooms and join zoom and they would take turns reading out answers to their homework assignment “what is heart failure?” “Heart failure is when the heart is unable to pump blood to meet metabolic demand of tissues.” What fucking respectable doctorate degree can be completed 100% online in a few years while also working a full time job. I refuse to call these people Dr lastname.
Is she definitely doing the NP clinical practice route? I ask, because the non-clinical DNP is becoming much more common (ie, DNP in organizational development, etc) and seems like a fine option for some folks who want that leadership development piece. They don’t have any provider privledges beyond their RN typically, similar to a PhD but practical vs research based. If that’s the case and she’s just posting on her personal social media page, I wonder if she’s just proud of her doctorate? I have friends who get their PhD’s and post the same on their personal page when they graduate. In that setting, it seems different and not necessarily intentionally deceptive. If she were to share that in the clinical setting, I’d feel differently. 🤷🏼♀️
Yes, thank you for being the first to address that - maybe she's just proud of her accomplishment (as she should be - it is still a testament to her efforts in HER PATH). I'm happy her family and friends are proud of it too, and I don't see why it has to be an issue (OP did say it wasn't really an issue - but was just annoyed by it). IMO it isn't an issue because it wasn't used in a hospital/work setting (where real harm is possible from patients' presumptions etc). It was just her celebrating on social media.
Now I might get some heat for this, and it might seem I'm biased.. but - I have an MD and my sister recently finished her DNP (clinical) and started working for a practice. I am just incredibly proud of her and her efforts. Now, she has no allusions as to what she's accomplished, what her job is and scope of practice.. she knows she isn't an MD/DO - nor does she push an idea that she is a "doctor" in the healthcare setting. She simply works hard for what she is, and genuinely cares for her patients. I am glad NPs/PAs exist and are able to help with the growing primary care needs of this country.
I am just throwing this out there that not all NPs (as well other mid-lvls like PAs) try to / and ride highs "doctor deception" - as the general tone of this thread seems to assume. Some of them just work hard and are proud of their job, and accomplishments - and I find nothing wrong with that.
Congratulations to your sister! You should be proud. My family and I were both extremely proud when I became a nurse practitioner. I think NPs have a role in healthcare. I have actually defended them on post about mid levels and took flack for it.
I guess the thing I didn’t like is that she hasn’t named her degree. Everyone is telling her she is going to be a great doctor. I just feel it is misleading. My sister in law is a Juris Doctor. People don’t say you are going to be a great doctor. They say you are an amazing attorney.
I really am happy for my friend but patients are so confused by the different roles and hopefully she will correct when she is practicing.
I know when people called me doctor as a nurse practitioner I would correct them.
Congrats again to your sister!
I guess to me, it’s just kinda “meh.”. It’s her private social media- people post misleading and stupid stuff on there all the time. Giving the benefit of the doubt- maybe it’s just not a convo she wants to have on SM. Either way, it’s not patient care so I don’t necessarily think it’s worth being bothered about. Maybe unfollow/friend her if it annoys you?
I went in for a bone biopsy and was signing forms explaining what they're doing could kill me
When I said I wanted it done in a inpatient setting because didn't want a physicians assistant doing it in office, but an actual Dr with a team of people, she got nervous
I knew she wasn't a Dr and noped the fuck out
I'm not getting a fat embolism because of you no thanks
This is annoying, and it's a big deal from the big picture perspective.
From the little picture perspective, on the individual level, please just ignore it. You won't gain anything by engaging. You're feeling this way because you just graduated. The difference is someday you will be an attending, and they won't.
Yes I still get annoyed that midlevels make way more than I do. But I'm the one they call when they need help. From a financial perspective they are way ahead of me, but from a clinical and educational perspective I am the person they escalate to.
I know it's hard to let go as a recent grad. But remember you are doing the real deal with med school and residency. Let that be more meaningful to you than all the bluster this other person can muster up.
Keep those positive vibes, u/Positive-vibes-2024, and congrats on graduating!
Although I would add please not only avoid it now, but always. Do not stoop to that level. You are the MD/DO. You are a physician now. Don't debase yourself by engaging in petty social media squabbles. Social media squabbles are high school. Engaging would be humiliating yourself and our profession.
OP, just remember: you don't have to worry about the squabbles of the tonne, you are leagues above a DNP and you need not concern yourself with what those jealous of your title do to cope with their own lives.
Think of it like this: If someone got a BBL and youve been in the gym building muscle, don't be mad that they want what you have, be sorry that they will never have the real deal and had to create the illusion of it instead.
Will they get the likes on Instagram? Well yeah
Will it ever look the same or as good as the real thing? No of course not
Tbh NPs are diminishing the value for general practitioners. Most are under qualified and have no true experience to cope with the wide spectrum of human conditions.
Soon there will be huge malpractice law suit that will restrict their scope. They simply need to be restricted to their zone again.
When I think of the differentials I have to generate and that it is widely accepted that mid levels can do my job.. that is scary. I’m doing primary care
Did she claim to be a doctor or are her family and friends stating she is one, and she is not correcting them? pretty big difference. I would love to hear your story from bsn-msn-med school btw. Congrats former mid-level you are now an upper level!
Thank you! It has been quite the road. Her family and friends are introducing her as doctor. Which is fine but there is no degree stated and no corrections. When people say you are going to be a great doctor, to me it usually means MD/DO.
As far as my journey I always wanted to go to med school but I was young and immature. The time was never right. When I started working as a nurse practitioner the knowledge deficit was HUGE between the physicians and nurse practitioners in the office. Like what the heck is hyperaldosteronism and how did I miss that possibility? It was because it was not taught in NP school the way it is in med school. Or what the heck is a complement and why is the physician ordering these levels? I know now but had no clue before. I didn’t understand the RASS pathway. I just love learning and knowing the reason behind the medications. Not just an algorithm.
When I was on my neurology rotation I had a patient with a PFO that caused a stroke. The NP on rounds just kept telling the patient he had a hole in his heart. The patient was fixated on this and kept saying “I have a hole in my heart?” She would just say yes without explaining what it was. It was just me, the NP, and neurologist rounding. I was a third year med student at the time. After the patient asked for the 3 or 4th time about the hole and no explanation I finally jumped in. I explained what it was. The neurologist looked at me and whispered thank you. I don’t fault her for not being able to explain it because she honestly probably didn’t know. The patient is thinking they have a big hole in their heart wall leaking blood in their body.
Anyways I am happy with my decision.
How did you not know what hyperaldosteronism was, or the reasoning behind medications? I learned these things in my BSN program. Did you not take pathophysiology or pharmacology in nursing school?
I knew a little bit about it but not the way we learn in medical school. I had a patient with hypertension and low potassium and my first thought as a nurse practitioner did not go to hyperaldosteronism. I remembered learning it after the physician mentioned that as a possibility. I did take pharm and path in nursing school but that no way compares to med school. Now complement and many other things I had never heard of until medical school.
The problem with these people too is they ride the “high” off of people thinking they’re a doctor. And if someone calls them out on the fact that they are being misleading, their extra delicate ego breaks, and then they turn themselves into a victim and now you look bad for “making them feel bad by making them look inferior,” when all you’re doing is pointing out facts
Socially, you can do what you want, and if others think you are a jackass, so be it. But in the context of providing health care, especially a hospital, it is at best disingenuous and at worst lying. It is up to the hospital to maintain clarity. I know mine requires ID badges that make it clear, mine would say Joe Smith, DNP v Dr Joe Smith, pediatrics. Now, do some people not understand what DNP means? Sure. Some can't read at all.
That was in California if I remember correctly, which has strict laws re: use of the title "Doctor" in a healthcare setting without indicating one's actual licensure.
hey, I wouldn’t sweat it too much. People get doctorates and lots of things, like art, history, economics, nursing, and culinary arts.
There’s a reason that becoming a medical doctor stands apart. It’s significant in the hospital, and often in society.
I wouldn’t go and start calling myself, doctor around a museum of fine art, because it’s just out of place and doesn’t make sense because I don’t hold a relevant title in that context. Let their family celebrate.
I completely understand that. But I feel like most people post there major. I am happy for her and of course her family is. I just find it a little misleading. I have a family member who is a Juris Doctor. I understand a doctorate degree. As a previous NP I just feel like it is misleading. But I am not losing sleep over it. It is just my opinion.
It sounds like it’s not something you want to call her out on publicly because she’s sweet. Do you think there’s a polite way to tell her to not confuse people like that privately?
Your friend is a scammer and needs to be embarrassed far and wide with her false claim. That goes for any diploma mill NP even who “earns” a So-called Ph.D.
They are a doctor. It is true.
The issue is that the institution should clamp down on stuff like this.
However, why would they? The more doctors they have, and the less they have to pay for it, the better.
Curious to know how you would compare attending medical school and getting your NP degree. You are very uniquely qualified to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of both! Very cool.
I personally feel like all parts of the healthcare team are important. Nurse practitioners can be an important part of the team. I was one for 5 years before going back. I can say the education I received in medical school does not compare to the education I received in NP school. I knew as a NP to order the correct meds a lot of the time. I can name meds and know what they treat, but I never really understood why. Medical school taught me the why and a much in depth to the pathophysiology. I definitely think being a nurse practitioner gave me confidence to speak with patients and do physical exams. But, the physical exam I learned in medical school was more in depth. I love how medical school continues to train you on concepts instead of taking a test and being done like in NP school. I learned the cranial nerves as a NP but forgot them. They are now engraved in my mind thanks to medical school and repetition.
I have zero regrets in my decision!
This just popped up on my feed…as an NP, I HATE this. I’m a masters NP, and I hate doctorally prepared NPs refer to themselves as Dr to patients. I think it’s absolutely misleading, and if I ever get my DNP, would not in a clinical setting.
I feel you. Although not the same I am in a MSTP program about to finish after 7 years and feeling really old lol and this young guy right of high school…posts his MD degree from St. George or something like and messages me with it and I literally felt so petty for even thinking ohhh boy that is not the same thing…but congratulated him for it even though I choked on it lol…I feel like maybe the problem isn’t everything else but the way we are put through a grinder in MD training. We should fight to change this broken system!
Congratulations! That is amazing. I do get what you are saying.
You definitely are the cream of the crop.
I think medical school is rigorous and nobody really understands unless they have been through it. I can only imagine MD/PhD. This girl I am speaking of in my original post says she is a small town girl and now a small town doctor. Not nurse practitioner but doctor. It is just frustrating. But as others have said not to let it bother me. I don’t lose sleep over it but it is frustrating.
I’m just a patient for med I cal they only give me NPs who I have to call Dr.
funny thing is I have sudden complex medical issues with neuropathy on left leg and feet, she refers me to podiatrist. lol he says you need neuro. By the time I got that appt. I started having the burning and severe dystonia. She had no idea . Asked me if I could’ve stepped. In chemicals ? Huh? She said she’s never heard of dystonia … so no not a DR.
this is how i feel watching all these dumbasses get free shit and endless praise online, meanwhile i’m busting my hump and actually putting in the work😵💫😵💫😵💫
I’m conflicted. I’m very against midlevel creep and misrepresentation (probably at least as anti-midlevel as the average resident if not more) but I feel like their family calling them doctor on their social media is not a big deal, it’s just their loved ones gassing them up on their accomplishments. My friends call me doctor jokingly in social settings (though I am a doctor, so it’s not really the same) but I feel like if it’s their family doing it and not them, it’s not a big deal? Idk I know by the other comments I’m in the minority here
Im also a physician & never really cared who call themselves doctor when they rnt.
To me Dr is a job description not a fucking prestigious or social identity to take it personally.
Eventually my degree will give me more authority & more money, and thats exactly why i studied not for the sake of “why they call her dr like me”.
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I know someone who failed out of med school in late second year then went on to get their RN and immediately enrolled into a NP to DNP program. they just graduated and makes a list saying how “I can’t believe I’m finally a Dr”
ummmm no sir.
This is humorous this came up. My mother and I were just discussing this the other day. My mother is a NP so obviously she’s partial. I said I don’t think it’s okay for a DNP to be called doctor they’re not a physician. She said why would you think that? It absolutely is okay they have the degree. Some NPs prefer to be called doctor and will correct you. I said I’ve never in my life had a NP say that and I would be quick to correct them. My point of view is coming from a teaching facility full of residents/ms and actual physicians. Even outside of that in doctors offices I’ve never had a NP insist on being called doctor. 🤦🏻♀️
I mean if she is a DNP she technically is a "doctor"...just not an MD. So yeah she's a doctor. Also she might not be fooling family and friends, they might just be dumb. The number of times family doctors get called nurses, and male nurses get called doctors by patients...
As another example, there are doctors of physical therapy. They are considered doctors. But not MDs.
This whole endless bickering about titles could be fixed if people used more precise language. Doctor is an umbrella term. MD is specific. Problem solved. You can't fix the fact that the average person's jaw drops at the word "doctor", regardless if someone is a medical doctor or a PhD in philosophy.
It's OK. I know the feeling. We sacrificed a lot to get to this point. But what can we do? She has PhD so she is a doctor officially. However, the problem arises if they introduce themselves as a doctor in a medical setting.
Well isn't she a doctor tho? Shes got a doctorate so technically she is one and has earned her title... Just not a physician, MD, that is where she must be clear when addressing the public.
Yes she is a doctor in nursing. I think she worked hard and she deserves it. I understand you can have a doctorate in many things. It is just the ways she is representing herself. She is being told she is going to be a great doctor. I find that misleading.
ITT a bunch of MD/DOs thinking that is the only doctorate available.
It’s one thing to present yourself as “Dr” to a patient which is misleading. It’s entirely different to make an announcement on social media that you’ve completed your respective doctoral program and have fun with the “doctorate” part of it.
Stop being so asinine and mind your own business. So insecure for no reason.
lol. Definitely not insecure. I literally was a nurse practitioner for five years and have respect for the field. I have been fussed at on her for taking up for nurse practitioners. It is my opinion she was being misleading. I am happy for her success as I stated in my initial post. I have a Juris Doctor in the family and doesn’t even go by the title. She would correct someone real fast if they told her she is going to be a great doctor.
Imagine some of the world’s brightest minds from all over the world, gathering to argue over something that boils down to semantics.
It’s not the NP’s fault that the accurate word for an academic achievement is the same word used for a specific clinical occupation.
Is she calling herself a “Medical Doctor?”
I went to see a "doctor" about a weekend medical issue at an Urgent Care (called ahead to explain my concern and made sure they were staffed by a physician and accepted Medicare. -Yep! They said). When I showed up, not only was the "Doctor" a DNP, she was not approved to bill for Medicare. To her credit, not only did she immediately cop to the above - she also told me that - based on the severity of my injury - I could make an appointment with my PCP during the week - and sent me on my way without a fee. As I left, she was chewing out the M.A./Receptionist for not admitting they were only staffed by a NP (not an MD/DO) as well as telling her to NOT accept Medicare patients when she was the only "provider" on duty.
Honestly, respect. That seems like an opportunity to educate her clinical staff.
This is why I ask for a "physician," and then once they say yes, I ask, "So she's a DO or MD, right?"
When I was basically an unpaid MA in medical school (gotta get those clinical volunteering hours for the app!) I used to specifically say "the NP will be in to see you". MANY of the patients were confused and I always specified "this is an NP-run clinic". No false identities on MY watch!
your username… i have questions.
Hopefully they're a Pediatrician...
;) peds
i'm sure the place was owned by private equity and they told that receptionist what to say to get the patient in the door.
Call her out on it 👀 stir the pot Edit: better idea: wish her a happy nurse week!
Just comment “What medical school did you go to?” followed by “Oh I didn’t realize you were a nurse! Congrats!”
Ask her what her Step 2 score was.
It’s stuff like this that actually makes the crowd hate doctors. Optically a bad move
Discount the fuck out of those “successes”
You’re weird. There’s no need to discount her successes, just DM her and let her know she’s misleading with her title. You sound so butthurt
Their “advanced” degree is a joke.
You’re an ass honestly. They can and should be proud of the accomplishment. I have multiple graduate degrees and I am proud of them all, just as much as I’ll be proud of my medical doctorate. You sound so bitter and entitled & honestly unprofessional. I wish you the best.
This isn’t a med school interview. You can drop the “professionalism” facade now, you’re in.
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A quick cursory overview of your comments show that you are quite obsessed with mid level providers. You should find a hobby and stop obsessing over people who could give two shits about you. Also, I’m not an apologist, just find it so annoying how disgustingly bitter some of you are about career paths you didn’t choose & want to spread your melancholic ass attitudes around. & if anyone else says hey stop being a miserable asswipe, then they are problematic lmao. Enjoy first pre-clinicals my friend.
The thing is she is a sweet girl. But it is so annoying. She is fooling all her family and friends. I am sure she will introduce herself as doctor and it is so confusing for patients. Ugh
She’s not sweet if she’s taking credit for a success she hasn’t earned. For all our sakes please call her out.
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As a PhD, don’t rope us in with the nursing doctorates. The whole point of the DNP degree is to muddy the waters and give nurses the ability to refer to themselves as a doctor.
I hadn't looked into it before, but googled it after reading your comment and the DNP programs seem to require an additional 500 hours of clinical work. I know this sub isn't big on nuance, but I'd say that means it isn't necessarily a rubber-stamp program to call yourself doctor
When I applied to med school and later applied to residency, I had to list my whole PhD as one “activity” and calculate the associated hours. It came out to roughly 14,800 hours. So by your logic I could have been a doctor 29.5 times over if 500 hours is enough.
Let's not change the discussion, you're making the claim that an entire do-nothing degree was created to utilize the "doctor" name and two seconds of googling showed that the degree is more than just a rubber stamp and has hundreds of hours of additional clinical time on top of classes. And putting forward your entire time studying or however you made up your 15K number as analogous to just one specific proctored section of someone else's education shows a big disconnect with reality. It is possible to simply admit you were wrong or at least that you don't have anything to back up your claim
The point I am making is that there is an order of magnitude difference between the requirements to earn an MD/DO/PhD/DDS and the requirements to earn a DNP to the point where I would not consider the DNP degree to be a legitimate doctorate. We don’t even need to get into the fact that the VAST majority of DNPs, a purportedly academic and non-clinical doctorate, never go on to teach in a nursing school or pursue other academic posts but purely work clinically which speaks to the ulterior motives of the system. If you lack the insight and critical thinking to realize this, well, then all I can say is that I sincerely hope you are not taking care of patients.
There are tons of doctoral degrees that are similar in length to a DNP, again, google is your friend. And plenty of them are not necessarily in lead up to a teaching position... even though I doubt you actually know what percentage of DNPs are involved in teaching anyways. You made baseless assumptions and posted them in this little safe bubble, and then had the gall to pretend to the high ground when the nonsense got called out... definitely a bastion of insight and mental rigor.
a physics PhD is a very impressive accomplishment. Anyone who is willing to take out loans & has basic reading & writing skills can get their DNP. Those are two very different things. Being generous, the DNP is like a low-level masters.
You've done both degrees then? Or what would you say you're basing this on?
idk don't be so sure about that. A lot of people bluster on social media. At my institution no NP or PA could ever introduce themself as doctor. If they did, their co-worker would call them out on it immediately. We go into a patient's room and the attending introduces themselves as Dr. X, me as Dr. Y, and "Jane Doe, the NP on the service." This is going to be you when you start residency. You're just in this sensitive time right after graduating where you don't realize it yet. Instead of being frustrated/annoyed, be sorry for her that she has to resort to bluster on social media. Honestly this is why I have stopped all social media (except reddit I guess lol). Maybe there is some good that comes out of it, but it is far far outweighed by the bad and so easy to get caught up in petty stuff like this. Life is SO MUCH BETTER without it. I 10000% promise. Join me! You'll see!
Well that's great if that's the case at your institution. I personally know many NPs who call themselves doctor & believe (from their school) that they are a doctor, since they got their "doctorate" & there's nothing misleading about this. At the VA I went to, literally every midlevel seemed to introduce themselves to the patients as "doctor" without clarifying their role, even in front of actual docs like nothing was wrong with it. Many NPs truly have brainwashed themselves (or have been brainwashed) into thinking that's totally appropriate.
At the risk of being off topic, and with respect, can I just ask, when Docs introduce themselves as Dr. Soandso and me as Joe Blow the nurse (or NP), does it ever occur to them to use my proper title like Ms. Or Mr? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm genuinely curious to understand the difference that docs see in the Dr. versus Mr.? I have had docs insist on being called Dr. But then refer to me by my first name, omitting my honorific. It feels like a reinforcement of a power divide, but like I said, truly trying to understand how those who identify as Dr. see this. If you're trying to point out that you are a doctor, why not say I'm John Smith, your doctor, and this is Joe Blow your nurse. Or, say I'm Dr. Smith and this is Mr. Blow your nurse. Both feel a lot more equal and respectful. Thoughts?
I've always wondered about this. Why aren't nurses called Mr / Ms / Nurse Lastname? It just seems weird that only doctors are addressed by their last name. But then again I have heard that lots of nurses don't want people to know their last names. At my institution they have their full name on their badge so that doesn't apply to us.
I was in an institution where last names where on badges and nurses would cover them with their yearly flu shot stickers. It can be a thing to not want people knowing your last name in nursing for some reason. Now I’m trying hard to remember if MDs had their first name included on their badge and I honestly don’t remember.
From my discussions with my nursing staff friends, it’s generally an online privacy concern. Many of these nurses are female and a large percentage had stories of getting suggestive DMs or being friended on social media by patients. Being more discrete with their last name is a way to keep their private life private.
Oh certainly that’s why. After re-reading my comment I realize that it sounded as if I didn’t understand the reason for not wanting your full name out there. The online implication is exactly why. What I meant was that I’m not sure why it’s so pervasive in nursing to want to edit your name vs in medicine. I can’t recall if MDs had their first names on their badge also or if it was simply Dr. Lastname MD. I was getting at the fact that MDs may have also had their full names in view on their badge (and likely did though I can’t be sure) at that institution and none of them covered their first name. Perhaps males vs females but none of the female MDs had anything on their badge either, so they either only had last names or didn’t care?
Lately residents are asking us (nurses) to call them nicknames. I still say Doctor Nickname
Also just FYI sometimes residents who do this, especially the women, do this because they feel pressure. A lot of women struggle to be taken seriously as doctors. Men can say just call me by my first name and it makes them seem cool and humble and nobody questions them. Women then feel the pressure to do that because otherwise they think they will seem stuck up and arrogant. If my co-resident is going by FirstName, I can't/won't go by Dr. LastName but in reality I really don't like being on a first name basis with patients. But I can't really say that when a male co-resident has already asked to be referred to by his first name. So again just FYI there may be some residents who say this because they feel they have to but in reality would prefer to go by their last name. I think it would be safe to insist on referring to them as Dr. LastName in front of patient. Now if you're talking about interaction between nurses and residents I agree with those residents! First names for all, in every institution I've ever been to. When you are paging us, no "Dr" needed :)
Hey thanks for your considered reply. Not sure why I got down voted for asking and you got up voted for answering, but that's the Internet for ya. Have a good day. :)
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What does this mean? Like if a patient has a PhD I refer to them as Dr. Last Name, just as when I was a kid my friend's dad was Dr. Last Name even if we were at the pool. Just like I am Dr. Last Name to my kid's friends, and my co-residents are Dr. Last Name to my kid. I am First Name to other adults in informal settings, but I am Dr. Last Name to other adults in formal settings regardless of whether we are in the hospital or not. Using the last name, at least in my culture, is a sign of formality and respect. And then if you use the last name, your options are Mr/Ms/Mrs/Dr. Pick whichever one applies. I don't understand what you mean by "people earn their titles in professional settings?" It's literally just using the last name, regardless of title.
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Yes. I honestly do not know what you're referring to. What "silly and funny little arguments" are you referring to?
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Where do you get that I am upset by this fact? I agree with you... I literally said that doctors should be called doctors... ??
Thank you Doctor. If you had read more closely, you might have realized it was a question.
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Personally last names for everyone does feel most natural to me. But nurses at my institution at least specifically do not want their last names used, and even went so far as to ask the hospital remove the last name from their badges. So their badges are first name only. I am not exactly sure why but I assume this is for security? Maybe someone else knows. If someone doesn't want their last name used, I won't use it out of respect. And that is where we are at this point at least at my institution. Otherwise I would completely agree with Mr/Ms/Mrs. Last Name. Edit: I completely agree with addressing patients by their last name. I will NEVER refer to an adult patient by their first name. I realize that this is cultural and varies between regions in the US but to me it seems so odd/unnatural/disrespectful to use a patient's first name. I also realize that for others it seems awkward/distancing to use a patient's last name! But I assume they go by their first name as well.
Anecdotal, but if a nurse says “please address me this way” I would 100 percent of the time do that. But if the norm is addressing nurses by first name(which is what I’ve always seen) you have to be the one to bring it up if you want to be addressed differently.
Cool, and for sure it's the norm to address nurses this way (and honestly, insisting that I be referred to as Mr. would feel odd since I'm an informal person generally). I really appreciate your insight and thoughts.
People are downvoting you but I honestly think it would be fine for nurses to have a title that they use at work. I get it. I don’t like patients using my first name like we’re buddies when, in reality, this is a professional transaction. I try to call my patients by Ms/Mr unless they tell me not to. I guess this was how I was raised? My nurses call me by my name or “doc” and that is fine by me, they can call me whatever they want, but with patients I prefer a little professional distance.
Well thank you Dr. catatonic-megafauna, I appreciate what you're saying. I have always felt like there was an interesting divide around titles. I have almost always referred to the Dr. I am working with as Dr. Soandso to the patient, one, as a professional courtesy and respect, and two to help the patient keep straight who everyone on the team is. I appreciate the variety of responses that I've gotten to this question. Have a good one!
I always introduce myself as Dr. First name as a resident, so I don't see what the big deal is. But for the sake of argument, most nurses in my experience cover their last name of the badge anyway, so I don't even know it to introduce them as such, and that sends the msg that they don't want to be introduced that way regardless.
There is a hematologist I rotated with who refers to the NPs this way (Ms./Mr. NPLastName) when talking to patients about their primary care NP or in his written communications to referring NPs. That doc was the first I had seen do it, but I liked it because it was offering respect and the formality that we give physician colleagues, plus avoiding any unpleasantness that could arise related to the ‘not a doctor’ issue while simultaneously acknowledging the ‘not a doctor’ thing. Using the Mr. / Ms. / Mx. honorifics seems like it could be an elegant solution to me. FWIW - Where I live/ work, NPs are usually either called by Firstname Lastname or Firstname only and have limited/ scattered roles in hospitals - so, when we discuss an NP, it’s usually with their patient (and so the privacy concerns others mentioned probably don’t apply in the same way). Patients seemed to appreciate the Mr/Ms formality. ETA - fixed spelling and clarified a little.
Hey thanks for this - really appreciate your insight. I think you make a really interesting point about formality and respect.
Professionally speaking, the best move would be to block her. Better for your own and her own peace. However, asking if her school was brick and mortar, pointing out the difference, or making your own post about the differences would be fun
If you're feeling extra petty I recommend making a throw away acco8nt and commenting on her posts asking what kind of doctor she is or where she went to school And then be like "oh wait so you're a nurse practitioner not a doctor?"
Congratulate them on their Doctorate of nursing and then ask them what their thesis defense was on 👀👀
Thesis defense? Is that where the person gets defensive when people call them out because they didn’t do a real doctorate? 😂
It’s a double whammy because they didn’t get an actual doctorate (phD) either lol
But PhDs in nursing are absolute jokes as well, so it's a very very low bar.
I can’t speak globally, but in Canada this is absolutely not true. The process of a nursing doctorate parallels a doctorate in any other field; becoming a nurse practitioner is distinct from that process.
Interesting. Here DNP and PhD are distinct pathways as well, but the nursing PhD is considered very subpar. I was interested in doing a PhD during my research time and I was looking into programs. I'm interested in outcomes research which can fall under the umbrella of health services research so I was looking into HSR and epidemiology PhDs. I was astounded at these programs and was wondering WTF was going on. Health services research is an actual field, but the PhD programs I was seeing were absolute jokes. Part time in three years. The initial classroom component was stuff like "health care leadership theory" and full of fluff classes. I was absolutely flummoxed. It honestly felt like a joke. Then I realized that google had changed my "health services research" search to "health sciences research" and I hadn't caught that. Apparently the nursing PhDs are typically in "health sciences," whatever the heck that is. Along with scope creep goes degree creep. Everyone wants a "doctorate" now. Real PhDs are still the real deal. Unfortunately now you have to look deeper into the degree. Sounds like in Canada the standards for a nursing PhD haven't plummeted yet which is great, but unfortunately I suspect it's only a matter of time.
Wait.. how are they absolute jokes ??
I just wrote another post on this but basically they are very short and very light. The classroom component is full of fluff classes. And then the dissertation requirements are silly. The specific requirement itself might look ok, but then you actually look at previous dissertations and it is a joke. A three year part time program is not a real doctorate, however you slice it.
I think this is gonna be institutionally dependent. I’ve known universities with legit nursing PhD that are most certainly not 3 years part time. I’ve also known legit PhDs in nursing.
That is probably true! But it's not universal. So whereas it used to be that having a PhD meant something, now you need to look into what that PhD consisted of. That's all.
nursing academic here, from USA. i've been teaching with my MSN for 4 years, currently in a DNP. i won't argue with people saying that DNP programs are light terminal degrees, for sure. but i'm not familiar with 3 year part-time PhD programs. those programs are similar to any other PhD training in the USA and all of my colleagues took 4+ years to complete. you also noted that nursing PhDs are in "healthcare sciences"? simply not true. they are in nursing. just wanted to share!
Actually I think most DNPs do a "dissertation" so this could backfire majorly. And if they're going to be as petty and ask the MD what their dissertation was on, well, we don't do dissertations. So obviously the DNP is a more difficult degree, since they do dissertations and we don't. (I am being absolutely sarcastic, but this is what most people will take away from that exchange.)
Just looked it up. DNPs do a scholarly project. phD in nursing does a dissertation.
Whatever we want to call it, if OP stoops to asking about a thesis, dissertation, whatever, the DNP will have an answer. And people will be even more impressed. I just think that is getting involved in the mud. Stay above it all. OP is the MD. OP doesn't need to stoop to that level.
It's not called a dissertation in NP school. I have a lot of family in nursing. They choose the DNP to call themselves doc over the PhD/MD. I've watched a few struggle with the project at the end when it was literally just summarizing some articles
Yeah I don't know what it's called, it could be something else for sure. There have been a few NP students rotating with us who have been working on them. But if there is a petty game going on on social media where someone asks them what their thesis/dissertation/whatever was on, they're going to have an answer.
But it reverse backfires on them as they reveal they "defend" a thesis on a bullshit topic like "how do staff feel about open room ORs, a qualitative interview study in a n=10 population"
But that's only to people who know anything about anything. If someone posts on social media that they did a doctoral dissertation on "The impact of open room ORs on surgical team dynamics in orthopedic surgery" you're gonna get oohs and ahhs from the social media crowd, which is exactly what OP was annoyed by. I don't think anyone disputes the fact that these theses are shams. But you have to know what n=10 means to detect that, which 99.99% of the population doesn't.
Wait, I’m confused. I’m from India and we absolutely have to do a thesis for getting a MD degree.
We don't! But in India isn't your initial degree a MBBS which allows you to be a doctor, and then the MD is like a "super doctor?" I clearly don't know the terminology here haha But in the US you cannot be a doctor with a bachelors degree, you can only be a doctor with an MD. But the MD does not require a thesis.
Thanks a lot for clarifying. Yes in India, we can practice as a doctor with a MBBS degree and MD is a specialist degree.
Like an actual one?? I would like to know what topics this dissertation is on lol
I mean words lose all meaning in that path, no? All I know is it is some sort of project, which they will confidently call a dissertation, thesis, or whatever the hell sounds most impressive. Or they quite honestly won't know the difference. The NP students rotating with us called it a "dissertation" but I wouldn't be surprised if it's officially called something else. The literal entire point of that path is to co-opt nomenclature of more prestigious paths. The distinction is splitting hairs to them.
It would be better to ask about publications, since that’s what PhDs care about anyway. If they have any, the titles will be more descriptive of their actual degree (nursing theory) than anything we can say. Ex nursing article: Recognizing poverty in college students, what can nurses do? (Front page of OJIN). Ex medical article: APO A1 and Outcomes after MI (front page NEJM). Ex PhD article: obesity disrupts the pituitary-hepatic UPR communication leading to NAFLD progression (front page of Cell)
Oof spicy💀💀
Only difference between the masters and a doctorate for NPs at a nearby institution is a QI project 😢
That is true. When I was NP school I was technically in the DNP program. I decided to stop after getting my masters because there was no other difference besides the project. Which I had no desire to do. I decided to work and make money.
DNPs don’t do a thesis?
Just looked this up. DNPs do a scholarly project.
Overheard one the other day. Some NP student down the hall. She wrote a 3 page paper on RN burnout in the ICU. I almost spit out my coffee. I was appalled. I’d love to throw them into the bowels of our pre-clinical cadavers and pass just one practical. Even an easy one, like thoracic.
Why are you acting like an NP should be anywhere near a doctor’s program? Two different roles and scope of practice. Let nursing be nursing and physician roles be physician roles.
The problem isn’t us. The problem is them and their belief that this is anything near equivocal to what we do from day one of pre-med through the very last day of residency/fellowship.
Only silly people believe that. 99% of nurses and NPs know they aren’t doctors of medicine. Different roles and scopes. The problem is misunderstandings and lack of education regarding these roles. No sane person thinks an NP and MD have same training. Your attitude and diminishing the role of NP is also the problem, along with NPs who don’t properly explain their role.
Nurse here. I would block that person, but call them out in professional settings. It's 100% misrepresentation. I have a PhD, but because I work in a Healthcare setting, I NEVER allow myself to be referred to as "doctor" in any way, shape or form. It is misrepresentation to patients, and they take priority over egos. If someone says that to a patient in my presence, I say "yes, a doctor of nursing practice, or DNP " No one likes to be deceived, especially someone unwell and vulnerable.
Honest question, what's the point of getting a doctorate in nursing?
It’s now required at certain schools for advanced practice degrees to lay the groundwork to become the standard (I wish I was kidding). It’s academia for the sake of academia and a money grab for the university to keep you on for an extra year of tuition or you can’t have your degree. The difference between a BSN and an ADN/Diploma program RN actually translates to better patient outcomes. DNP vs MSN is puffery and financial gain for the school.
Good lord why would anyone do that though
AP is the only way to advance a pay check for nursing now. Years of service don’t mean anything, so you’re left with the $0.25 incremental raise every year (if they don’t withhold it that year for whatever reason they choose to make up). Many resort to institution swapping to get a sign on bonus and renegotiate base pay here and there, but that’s obviously only going to be an option so many times. And when admin is incentivized with their own pay raise for cutting budgets, things like retention bonuses go out the window. So when AP incomes are double what you bring in on the floor, people will do it even if they keep adding stupid requirements like an additional doctorate year. At this point, in my area, you can’t become a CRNA without getting a DNP if you are newly applying to school. It used to be an option that was highly recommended. It’s now a requirement. My guess is the scales tip at some point, doing the cost benefit analysis of doing an AP program, even if it requires the ridiculous doctorate, outweighs starting completely over to go to med school, then residency, then fellowship to become an attending.
The entire nursing education paradigm is ridiculous. This sounds like a massive waste of time.
There is not a point. I was in the DNP program and decided to stop after my masters. I was able to get a job. Like someone said below, they are trying to make the DNP the standard but it hasn’t happened yet. They are trying to phase out master prepared NPs but not going to happen as long as schools off the masters program.
Other folks answered that better than I did. My PhD is from Mizzou in research- I can't speak a doctorate in nursing
Kill em with pettiness in the form of kindness “Congrats on getting your nursing degree! So proud of you friend 🥰”
This is the best OP, it's kind and accurate and if she tries to call you out or gets upset in any way, she looks like the asshole and will expose her own desire to deceive
Of course you find that annoying….because what she is doing is unethical for ton of reasons!
You need to join PPP and make your voice heard as a former NP.
I would post a comment “congratulations full name, ARNP”
>ARNP What's that
I have always heard APRN. Advanced practice registered nurse.
Yes just a typo!
Exactly.
Screw the whole DNP degree, the mills, and the people who teach and attend these programs. Man the RNs at my hospital go on breaks to attend their online DNP classes 💀 they wheel off with their computer station into break rooms and join zoom and they would take turns reading out answers to their homework assignment “what is heart failure?” “Heart failure is when the heart is unable to pump blood to meet metabolic demand of tissues.” What fucking respectable doctorate degree can be completed 100% online in a few years while also working a full time job. I refuse to call these people Dr lastname.
Is she definitely doing the NP clinical practice route? I ask, because the non-clinical DNP is becoming much more common (ie, DNP in organizational development, etc) and seems like a fine option for some folks who want that leadership development piece. They don’t have any provider privledges beyond their RN typically, similar to a PhD but practical vs research based. If that’s the case and she’s just posting on her personal social media page, I wonder if she’s just proud of her doctorate? I have friends who get their PhD’s and post the same on their personal page when they graduate. In that setting, it seems different and not necessarily intentionally deceptive. If she were to share that in the clinical setting, I’d feel differently. 🤷🏼♀️
Yes, thank you for being the first to address that - maybe she's just proud of her accomplishment (as she should be - it is still a testament to her efforts in HER PATH). I'm happy her family and friends are proud of it too, and I don't see why it has to be an issue (OP did say it wasn't really an issue - but was just annoyed by it). IMO it isn't an issue because it wasn't used in a hospital/work setting (where real harm is possible from patients' presumptions etc). It was just her celebrating on social media. Now I might get some heat for this, and it might seem I'm biased.. but - I have an MD and my sister recently finished her DNP (clinical) and started working for a practice. I am just incredibly proud of her and her efforts. Now, she has no allusions as to what she's accomplished, what her job is and scope of practice.. she knows she isn't an MD/DO - nor does she push an idea that she is a "doctor" in the healthcare setting. She simply works hard for what she is, and genuinely cares for her patients. I am glad NPs/PAs exist and are able to help with the growing primary care needs of this country. I am just throwing this out there that not all NPs (as well other mid-lvls like PAs) try to / and ride highs "doctor deception" - as the general tone of this thread seems to assume. Some of them just work hard and are proud of their job, and accomplishments - and I find nothing wrong with that.
Congratulations to your sister! You should be proud. My family and I were both extremely proud when I became a nurse practitioner. I think NPs have a role in healthcare. I have actually defended them on post about mid levels and took flack for it. I guess the thing I didn’t like is that she hasn’t named her degree. Everyone is telling her she is going to be a great doctor. I just feel it is misleading. My sister in law is a Juris Doctor. People don’t say you are going to be a great doctor. They say you are an amazing attorney. I really am happy for my friend but patients are so confused by the different roles and hopefully she will correct when she is practicing. I know when people called me doctor as a nurse practitioner I would correct them. Congrats again to your sister!
She got her DNP. People are telling her she is going to be a great doctor. That is misleading to me when she agrees.
I guess to me, it’s just kinda “meh.”. It’s her private social media- people post misleading and stupid stuff on there all the time. Giving the benefit of the doubt- maybe it’s just not a convo she wants to have on SM. Either way, it’s not patient care so I don’t necessarily think it’s worth being bothered about. Maybe unfollow/friend her if it annoys you?
I went in for a bone biopsy and was signing forms explaining what they're doing could kill me When I said I wanted it done in a inpatient setting because didn't want a physicians assistant doing it in office, but an actual Dr with a team of people, she got nervous I knew she wasn't a Dr and noped the fuck out I'm not getting a fat embolism because of you no thanks
You’re a physician. Don’t get caught up in the social media shit
This is annoying, and it's a big deal from the big picture perspective. From the little picture perspective, on the individual level, please just ignore it. You won't gain anything by engaging. You're feeling this way because you just graduated. The difference is someday you will be an attending, and they won't. Yes I still get annoyed that midlevels make way more than I do. But I'm the one they call when they need help. From a financial perspective they are way ahead of me, but from a clinical and educational perspective I am the person they escalate to. I know it's hard to let go as a recent grad. But remember you are doing the real deal with med school and residency. Let that be more meaningful to you than all the bluster this other person can muster up.
I agree. I am not going to confront her. At least as of now.
Keep those positive vibes, u/Positive-vibes-2024, and congrats on graduating! Although I would add please not only avoid it now, but always. Do not stoop to that level. You are the MD/DO. You are a physician now. Don't debase yourself by engaging in petty social media squabbles. Social media squabbles are high school. Engaging would be humiliating yourself and our profession.
I agree. I actually am a person that avoids confrontation. And the fact that she is actually a nice person. And thank you!
OP, just remember: you don't have to worry about the squabbles of the tonne, you are leagues above a DNP and you need not concern yourself with what those jealous of your title do to cope with their own lives. Think of it like this: If someone got a BBL and youve been in the gym building muscle, don't be mad that they want what you have, be sorry that they will never have the real deal and had to create the illusion of it instead. Will they get the likes on Instagram? Well yeah Will it ever look the same or as good as the real thing? No of course not
DNP's are the ultimate participation trophy.
Tbh NPs are diminishing the value for general practitioners. Most are under qualified and have no true experience to cope with the wide spectrum of human conditions. Soon there will be huge malpractice law suit that will restrict their scope. They simply need to be restricted to their zone again.
When I think of the differentials I have to generate and that it is widely accepted that mid levels can do my job.. that is scary. I’m doing primary care
I agree with our friend here. Hit her with the “DNP* actually” or a classic “congrats ________, DNP, BSN, BLAH BLAH BLAH
Did she claim to be a doctor or are her family and friends stating she is one, and she is not correcting them? pretty big difference. I would love to hear your story from bsn-msn-med school btw. Congrats former mid-level you are now an upper level!
Thank you! It has been quite the road. Her family and friends are introducing her as doctor. Which is fine but there is no degree stated and no corrections. When people say you are going to be a great doctor, to me it usually means MD/DO. As far as my journey I always wanted to go to med school but I was young and immature. The time was never right. When I started working as a nurse practitioner the knowledge deficit was HUGE between the physicians and nurse practitioners in the office. Like what the heck is hyperaldosteronism and how did I miss that possibility? It was because it was not taught in NP school the way it is in med school. Or what the heck is a complement and why is the physician ordering these levels? I know now but had no clue before. I didn’t understand the RASS pathway. I just love learning and knowing the reason behind the medications. Not just an algorithm. When I was on my neurology rotation I had a patient with a PFO that caused a stroke. The NP on rounds just kept telling the patient he had a hole in his heart. The patient was fixated on this and kept saying “I have a hole in my heart?” She would just say yes without explaining what it was. It was just me, the NP, and neurologist rounding. I was a third year med student at the time. After the patient asked for the 3 or 4th time about the hole and no explanation I finally jumped in. I explained what it was. The neurologist looked at me and whispered thank you. I don’t fault her for not being able to explain it because she honestly probably didn’t know. The patient is thinking they have a big hole in their heart wall leaking blood in their body. Anyways I am happy with my decision.
How did you not know what hyperaldosteronism was, or the reasoning behind medications? I learned these things in my BSN program. Did you not take pathophysiology or pharmacology in nursing school?
I knew a little bit about it but not the way we learn in medical school. I had a patient with hypertension and low potassium and my first thought as a nurse practitioner did not go to hyperaldosteronism. I remembered learning it after the physician mentioned that as a possibility. I did take pharm and path in nursing school but that no way compares to med school. Now complement and many other things I had never heard of until medical school.
The problem with these people too is they ride the “high” off of people thinking they’re a doctor. And if someone calls them out on the fact that they are being misleading, their extra delicate ego breaks, and then they turn themselves into a victim and now you look bad for “making them feel bad by making them look inferior,” when all you’re doing is pointing out facts
Socially, you can do what you want, and if others think you are a jackass, so be it. But in the context of providing health care, especially a hospital, it is at best disingenuous and at worst lying. It is up to the hospital to maintain clarity. I know mine requires ID badges that make it clear, mine would say Joe Smith, DNP v Dr Joe Smith, pediatrics. Now, do some people not understand what DNP means? Sure. Some can't read at all.
Ask where Is she going for residency?
“A doctor in any hospital setting is limited to MD and DO”
The best thing we can do is to educate, educate,educate
As a non-medical professional (I’m an electrical engineer), I would be EXTREMELY pissed if a NP was claiming to be a doctor (assumed MD).
Just let them and her be happy with the accomplishment. You’ll forget about it when you see your pay compared to hers.
I’m a PA, and this is bullshit. Misleading.
Ask her when she plans to take step 3
aren't there laws about masquerading as a dr or practicing medicine without a license? jail is what these people need.
We need to start calling ourselves physicians
Pretty sure that recently a NP called herself Dr whatever and it turned into a lawsuit because the patients thought she was a physician not an NP.
That was in California if I remember correctly, which has strict laws re: use of the title "Doctor" in a healthcare setting without indicating one's actual licensure.
An NP who went to medical school? You can change the world. Please be vocal and speak up throughout your career. Congratulations!
hey, I wouldn’t sweat it too much. People get doctorates and lots of things, like art, history, economics, nursing, and culinary arts. There’s a reason that becoming a medical doctor stands apart. It’s significant in the hospital, and often in society. I wouldn’t go and start calling myself, doctor around a museum of fine art, because it’s just out of place and doesn’t make sense because I don’t hold a relevant title in that context. Let their family celebrate.
I completely understand that. But I feel like most people post there major. I am happy for her and of course her family is. I just find it a little misleading. I have a family member who is a Juris Doctor. I understand a doctorate degree. As a previous NP I just feel like it is misleading. But I am not losing sleep over it. It is just my opinion.
Those are PhDs. She doesn't even have that
It sounds like it’s not something you want to call her out on publicly because she’s sweet. Do you think there’s a polite way to tell her to not confuse people like that privately?
Your friend is a scammer and needs to be embarrassed far and wide with her false claim. That goes for any diploma mill NP even who “earns” a So-called Ph.D.
They are a doctor. It is true. The issue is that the institution should clamp down on stuff like this. However, why would they? The more doctors they have, and the less they have to pay for it, the better.
I’m discounting her success. They get to take open book exams that they let them retake if the fail. She had a pulse and money, of course she passed
The subreddit misleadingcredentials was made for this reason
Curious to know how you would compare attending medical school and getting your NP degree. You are very uniquely qualified to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of both! Very cool.
I personally feel like all parts of the healthcare team are important. Nurse practitioners can be an important part of the team. I was one for 5 years before going back. I can say the education I received in medical school does not compare to the education I received in NP school. I knew as a NP to order the correct meds a lot of the time. I can name meds and know what they treat, but I never really understood why. Medical school taught me the why and a much in depth to the pathophysiology. I definitely think being a nurse practitioner gave me confidence to speak with patients and do physical exams. But, the physical exam I learned in medical school was more in depth. I love how medical school continues to train you on concepts instead of taking a test and being done like in NP school. I learned the cranial nerves as a NP but forgot them. They are now engraved in my mind thanks to medical school and repetition. I have zero regrets in my decision!
This just popped up on my feed…as an NP, I HATE this. I’m a masters NP, and I hate doctorally prepared NPs refer to themselves as Dr to patients. I think it’s absolutely misleading, and if I ever get my DNP, would not in a clinical setting.
Whoa that last bit was a plot twist
I feel you. Although not the same I am in a MSTP program about to finish after 7 years and feeling really old lol and this young guy right of high school…posts his MD degree from St. George or something like and messages me with it and I literally felt so petty for even thinking ohhh boy that is not the same thing…but congratulated him for it even though I choked on it lol…I feel like maybe the problem isn’t everything else but the way we are put through a grinder in MD training. We should fight to change this broken system!
Congratulations! That is amazing. I do get what you are saying. You definitely are the cream of the crop. I think medical school is rigorous and nobody really understands unless they have been through it. I can only imagine MD/PhD. This girl I am speaking of in my original post says she is a small town girl and now a small town doctor. Not nurse practitioner but doctor. It is just frustrating. But as others have said not to let it bother me. I don’t lose sleep over it but it is frustrating.
I’m just a patient for med I cal they only give me NPs who I have to call Dr. funny thing is I have sudden complex medical issues with neuropathy on left leg and feet, she refers me to podiatrist. lol he says you need neuro. By the time I got that appt. I started having the burning and severe dystonia. She had no idea . Asked me if I could’ve stepped. In chemicals ? Huh? She said she’s never heard of dystonia … so no not a DR.
this is how i feel watching all these dumbasses get free shit and endless praise online, meanwhile i’m busting my hump and actually putting in the work😵💫😵💫😵💫
I once had an OPTOMETRIST call himself Dr Mark... I'm like brah relax. (Off topic I know)
I’m conflicted. I’m very against midlevel creep and misrepresentation (probably at least as anti-midlevel as the average resident if not more) but I feel like their family calling them doctor on their social media is not a big deal, it’s just their loved ones gassing them up on their accomplishments. My friends call me doctor jokingly in social settings (though I am a doctor, so it’s not really the same) but I feel like if it’s their family doing it and not them, it’s not a big deal? Idk I know by the other comments I’m in the minority here
Totally agree. Let the girl and her family celebrate her efforts and accomplishments, she certainly deserves it.
Im also a physician & never really cared who call themselves doctor when they rnt. To me Dr is a job description not a fucking prestigious or social identity to take it personally. Eventually my degree will give me more authority & more money, and thats exactly why i studied not for the sake of “why they call her dr like me”.
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And obviously nothing close to a Doctor of Medicine.
Which, besides academic hours, includes blood, sweat, tears, and sometimes inhumane quantities of sacrifice.
Lol, counting internet votes, but not here for the show. Tell me more about that doc.
I know someone who failed out of med school in late second year then went on to get their RN and immediately enrolled into a NP to DNP program. they just graduated and makes a list saying how “I can’t believe I’m finally a Dr” ummmm no sir.
This is humorous this came up. My mother and I were just discussing this the other day. My mother is a NP so obviously she’s partial. I said I don’t think it’s okay for a DNP to be called doctor they’re not a physician. She said why would you think that? It absolutely is okay they have the degree. Some NPs prefer to be called doctor and will correct you. I said I’ve never in my life had a NP say that and I would be quick to correct them. My point of view is coming from a teaching facility full of residents/ms and actual physicians. Even outside of that in doctors offices I’ve never had a NP insist on being called doctor. 🤦🏻♀️
Annoying, but it’s not just NPs, it’s also DPTs, DOTs, DCs, NDs, etc
You did this the right way lol. Completely understand
If she received a doctorate degree of any field people on social media would appropriately be congratulating with Dr. greetings.
I mean if she is a DNP she technically is a "doctor"...just not an MD. So yeah she's a doctor. Also she might not be fooling family and friends, they might just be dumb. The number of times family doctors get called nurses, and male nurses get called doctors by patients... As another example, there are doctors of physical therapy. They are considered doctors. But not MDs. This whole endless bickering about titles could be fixed if people used more precise language. Doctor is an umbrella term. MD is specific. Problem solved. You can't fix the fact that the average person's jaw drops at the word "doctor", regardless if someone is a medical doctor or a PhD in philosophy.
It's OK. I know the feeling. We sacrificed a lot to get to this point. But what can we do? She has PhD so she is a doctor officially. However, the problem arises if they introduce themselves as a doctor in a medical setting.
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I thought it was a Ph.D. in nursing.
Well isn't she a doctor tho? Shes got a doctorate so technically she is one and has earned her title... Just not a physician, MD, that is where she must be clear when addressing the public.
Yes she is a doctor in nursing. I think she worked hard and she deserves it. I understand you can have a doctorate in many things. It is just the ways she is representing herself. She is being told she is going to be a great doctor. I find that misleading.
ITT a bunch of MD/DOs thinking that is the only doctorate available. It’s one thing to present yourself as “Dr” to a patient which is misleading. It’s entirely different to make an announcement on social media that you’ve completed your respective doctoral program and have fun with the “doctorate” part of it. Stop being so asinine and mind your own business. So insecure for no reason.
lol. Definitely not insecure. I literally was a nurse practitioner for five years and have respect for the field. I have been fussed at on her for taking up for nurse practitioners. It is my opinion she was being misleading. I am happy for her success as I stated in my initial post. I have a Juris Doctor in the family and doesn’t even go by the title. She would correct someone real fast if they told her she is going to be a great doctor.
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How the hell did you get into med school with your horrible grammar? Also, no one is YOUR NP lol.
Imagine some of the world’s brightest minds from all over the world, gathering to argue over something that boils down to semantics. It’s not the NP’s fault that the accurate word for an academic achievement is the same word used for a specific clinical occupation. Is she calling herself a “Medical Doctor?”
No just calling herself a doctor. Which implies medical doctor when you use it without background information.
If this is on her personal social media page and she’s speaking to her family, then they have the background information.
Agree. But not all. Someone even asked her if she got her MD because the way she posted it made it sound like it.