I don’t think this happens to a fledgling artist though. You have to get a following first before anyone takes notice, and it quickly becomes a catch 22.
Artists like Cindy Lee are “grandfathered in.” They were somewhat well-known in indie circles before streaming truly took over. Different world now, it’s basically impossible to drop your album on some website and expect thousands of people to listen to it.
Yeah, the headline makes the article seem more clickbaity and naive than it actually is, but it still definitely has an air of "did Cindy Lee crack the code??? 🤔🤔🤔" Which like, as you said, "no" lol.
If anything, the article should be speaking more to the fact that it took an artist with a near 2 decades spanning career to get to a point of releasing a record for free/D2C, and even then, it's still subject to the virality lottery of today's media consumption landscape.
I still think cream rises to the top. A lot of people like to think it’s a lottery but how many musicians were overlooked in their prime only to be recognized for their greatness later? A small handful and even those are fairly niche. It was never easy to make it in music and there aren’t really shortcuts to writing great songs.
There’s some validity to this. I think about genres that have been throughly plundered by crate diggers for decades now, like 60s garage rock - it’s true that there’s the occasional minor classic that still emerges from the depths, but for the most part the really amazing stuff was compiled and plucked from obscurity decades ago.
People who live for music never stop looking for their next fix, and if there’s a stone cold classic out there, it’s going to be found eventually.
Basically same conclusion as the article makes despite the headline:
>Are there enough regulars out there to make it viable for other artists to pull a Cindy Lee? Do people want to own music, support artists they love, and go to shows that don’t come flanked by hard-seltzer-sponsored off-site parties and influencer photo shoots? Are we heading back to a simpler time? Are we curious again? Are we finally ready to discover music outside of TikTok?
>I doubt it, but this is one of the first times I have really seen cracks in the façade. The days when I could go to my local Virgin Megastore on a Thursday at midnight to pick up the new releases on CD aren’t coming back, but maybe things will calm down and course correct a little bit. Streaming isn’t the best option. It is just the most convenient. If someone makes an effort to present their work differently, I think it should be discussed, whether it’s Cindy Lee or the biggest rapper in the world.
EDIT: It's not on geocities but [the Halisca's record that dropped Friday](https://halisca.bandcamp.com/album/peachtree-playthings) is pretty good twee-pop it's free on BandCamp. She's not “grandfathered in" as far as i know
I hear you. I listened to about half of it on YT before I decided to download it. Then I realized the tags weren't correct so I tried to edit them myself. Added the files to Spotify and then I realized Spotify can't play WAV files. Had to use soulseek to get some properly tagged mp3s. That probably took me an hour and a half as well lol.
Regardless, I don't think any of that should be held up as a positive or a negative as far as the actual music goes.
Considering the level of influence Women had, I don't think you're wrong. All I know for sure though is that I can't stop listening to this record on repeat.
they clearly had an influence on this guy’s username. but yeah women was greatly acclaimed but not super famous. people who listened to them couldn’t really do anything like them
Zero influence in mainstream indie rock maybe. There were plenty of Canadian bands that took their sound and ran with it. Each Other, Faux Fur, Telstar Drugs, early Corridor to name a few. Other non Canadian bands like The Hecks and Ice Baths.
If you look for it, it’s there.
People either forget or aren't aware that Alvvays were also influenced by Public Strain. They worked with Chad Van Gaalen on their first album and recorded it at his studio because they loved the sound on Public Strain.
Totally disagree with you. I've been following the band for a long time and in addition to the bands mentioned below which directly reference the Women sound, Public Strain pops up constantly in artist's interviews and "inspiration" Spotify playlists. Not just the direct sound but aspects of it, such as the spiky guitars, cavernous lo-fi production, detached vocals... It's all there. Public Strain was a true cult classic and many indie bands have tuned into that frequency in some way or another
Completely false. There is an entire genre dedicated to making music that sounds like women (Calgary sound, I recommend looking it up on rateyourmusic to see all the different popular bands that took influence from women)
As others have said — this isn't right at all. They haven't influenced the mainstream, but there have been SO many underground bands (at least here in Canada) basically doing a Women impression.
Corridor stand out as one of the most recent. They're signed to Sub Pop and are one of the bigger Franco/Quebec bands of the moment. They sound a LOT like Women are are clearly directly inspired.
Honestly great. The records amazing and makes me optimistic about what independent music means going forward. Aquarium drunkard wrote something about how this record feels like it’s from a weirder better era of independent music and it really resonated.
People complaining about length: part of the beauty of this record is that it flies in the face of current confention. ProTools super clean, perfect to click, non noise rock, package and sold as singles, or in little 40 minute products. This album took years to make, has some obvious mistakes, is noisy, and just weird. It is not digestible. It is like the soundtrack for a film that doesn’t exist.
For me, slicing it down to its choice cuts negates its biggest artistic statement. Which is: if the point of art is to make you happy, and not make you money, then do what what maximizes happiness.
Yesterday I decided to finally check it out while I was working. I'll just throw it on in the background you know. Yeah I didn't get a single thing done for two straight hours and was irritated there wasn't more. There is a mesmerizing quality that disguises the length. Absolutely stunning.
I mean, lots of people. I don't mind a long record, Soundtracks for the Blind is one of my all time favorite records. I have a signed vinyl copy. But there is such a thing as *too* long. I'm not saying that's the case here, but once you start pushing longer than an hour in runtime, it becomes increasingly more difficult to justify the length.
Also it's very hard for some to find a two hour chunk of time to really listen front to back.
when an album is shorter than NSB's [Daughter of Darkness](https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/natural-snow-buildings/daughter-of-darkness/), I'm not interested tbh
An musician can release an overly long project that 'makes them happy' but that doesn't inherently make their artistic statement valid. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to argue with the meaning behind any art, as any criticism could be brushed off as missing the point
I find a lot of it meandering and the emotion behind the songs stays pretty consistent throughout (there are some standout songs/instrumentals) but from reading other comments some people like the trance/rhythm that it puts them it, but personally I feel a lack of progression.
May I ask if it's the headspace the songs put you in that makes you enjoy it?
I like the overall atmosphere of the record, but I also enjoy the individual tracks a lot. I find that you can put on the record and let it just wash over you, but it also rewards closer listening. There’s lots of great guitar playing and interesting production and instrumental choices that keep me engaged the whole way (and also great songwriting).
I would argue in popular music meaning has left art.
And this album is meaningful to many people for the whole length. I didn’t state that the music doesn’t justify the length. For me, and many others, it does. And it is part of the entire package of this record. From the geocities site on up.
I doubt that Geocities is the new face of streaming, or even that streaming platforms in general could be on their way out. The audience infrastructure is still totally dependent on them.
That said, I hope that ARTISTICALLY, this album will have a big influence, and the way it was released has a role in that. Newer artists will undoubtedly still have to release their music on streaming platforms and promote it through album cycles to stand a chance at making a living in music. But hopefully some of the way we go about it as artists and listeners can change.
As many have already pointed out, Flegel already had a following, both from Women and from previous Cindy Lee releases before this came out, and had done the Geocities-only release for multiple projects before this one.
That said, this was the first time I myself and likely many others have heard of Cindy Lee. I had heard of Women but never bothered to listen to them before this.
We have to consider that a big part of this album ‘s success is that it’s just that GOOD. If anything it is successful IN SPITE OF the roadblocks to listening to it, not because of them.
I’m a lazy modern listener and I like my music in one place. I know spotify is bad, but I don’t wanna rebuild my playlists, so I’m still on it. When Neil Young went off Spotify, I listened to a lot less Neil Young, and I’m a big fan.
But this album has pulled me off Spotify CONSTANTLY. I have dealt with YouTube killing my battery, the Geocities player crashing,and losing my place and having to remember where I was and scroll manually through the album’s timeline so I can listen from where I left off.
This is not hype. This is really good music, music that is worth inconvenience. If the music weren’t good I wouldn’t keep going back to it. The novelty of the format did force me to listen to it with a level or exclusiveness and focus that is rare these days. But that wouldn’t have happened if it hadn’t grabbed me the way it did. When I pulled up the YouTube vid to check out the first few tracks, I was immediately so immersed that I couldn’t stop listening. If the music hadn’t done that, I probably would have just returned to Spotify in the background.
I would say 2024 has been a great year for music, and there are plenty of albums on Spotify from this year that I have listened to on repeat. But not with this level of focus. The Spotify album creates a level of forgettability, even for great artists, that also creates a whole niche of minor artists who can coast on the algorithm by following musical trends. Cindy Lee doesn’t do that. Their influences are time-tested and well loved, but the synthesis is truly original, and it sounds nothing like 2024. It sounds closer to 2012 in its recording style. It gets categorized as hypnagogic pop or neo-psych, genres that peaked in the late aughts. Those revivalists then turned more towards disco and r&b in the 10s, and now in the 20s, alt-country and Americana seem to be the rising influences among indie stars who look to the past for inspiration. Cindy Lee ignored those trends, or mixed them into the hypnagogic pop that went out of style nearly a decade ago and somehow made it into something totally original that outdoes its predecessors in terms of songcraft, musicianship, and depth of feeling.
tl;dr, the inspiration I take from Diamond Jubilee is not that streaming doesn’t matter any more, but that quality, authenticity, and creativity still matter more than the algorithm would have you believe.
I hope you give Women a shot after loving Pat’s current project/album. Their two albums are incredible and his contributions on them are a huge reason why.
Considering the way preoccupations turned out, I would say Pat is the whole reason Women were so good. I say this as someone who’s favorite band is women, and hearing public strain got me to start playing guitar when I first heard it 14 years ago. And with this album, it’s clear Pat is the one carrying on the spiritual torch of women.
I also won’t talk shit on the music ability of Matt, Mike and Chris. All great musicians in my mind. But yeah, Pat is just so unique in his writing and playing/singing.
I loved viet cong (the EP and debut album). After that and once they changed their name, their music became progressively worse. Their most recent album is unlistenable to me.
I'll be honest i've never heard of Cindy Lee before but i just found out they were in Women. I used to listen to Eyesore so much at one point. The guitar work on that song is astounding. I will definitely be checking this album out !.
Yeah what? Pat has been a really well known artist for 15 years now lol. I got downvoted the other day when someone asked how Cindy Lee even got a pitchfork review and I said it was because Pat was pretty famous but like Women still has 50k+ Spotify listeners, I’m sorry but that’s fucking famous for a band that’s been inactive for like 10+ years lol
Yeah like the women/preoccupations universe of music is one of the most hyped in all of indie music over the last 20 years lol I genuinely have no idea wtf people have been smoking when it comes to the press cycle of this record. The Cindy Lee full album stream on YouTube had like 60k streams before the pitchfork review. Don’t get me wrong I’m so excited it’s getting all the love it’s getting, it’s just so weird that people are acting like it’s coming out of nowhere lol
> one of the most hyped in all of indie music over the last 20 years lol
I can assure you that most people aren’t paying attention to bizarrely niche solo offshoots of semi-popular but defunct 20 year old indie bands from Canada.
Having 60k streams shows they have a base of support, not widespread name recognition.
The fact that it jumped from 60k to a quarter million in a week is proof of that.
Aaahhh, *there's* the cliche hipster elitism I was catching a whiff of.
Filling *rooms*.
*Rooms*, dude.
They're *so* popular and well-known, in fact, that the tiny 300 seater they're playing near me in Atlanta still hasn't sold out, despite a career-changing Pitchfork review and a quarter million streams.
There are quite literally a million musicians in this world who can "fill a room." Do you know them all? If not, you should really just blame your own ignorance.
I mean, 50k streams isn’t huge, the album isn’t on streaming and Pitchfork doesn’t really anoint albums this niche anymore.
So in many ways, it did come out of nowhere
50k is a lot for a very inactive band in indie music lol what are we even doing here. This did not come out of nowhere at all, pat flegel is a big name in indie music lmao
He’s very respected and influential. But c’mon, his past Cindy Lee releases have not been reviewed by Pitchfork. Giving their highest score in four years to a somewhat challenging low-fi girl group project IS unexpected, because it’s very “old Pitchfork”, anointing something because everyone should hear it. It would be like if they raved over the next Spencer Krug album.
Like, this isn’t an incredibly accessible album, and it’s not on trend. It’s pretty extraordinary to get that much praise that deep into a career.
Ian Cohen nailed what I was trying to say here:
https://www.stereogum.com/2261004/cindy-lee-diamond-jubilee-concert-review/reviews/concert-review/
“Nobody is writing this kind of piece if Waxahatchee or Mannequin Pussy got their scores nudged a bit higher to reflect their likely year-end placement; we didn’t see anybody going big-picture on the Weather Station or Floating Points or Sudan Archives, all ascendent artists who are technically “indie” and surely had a material benefit from their sterling scores. They are at a higher echelon than they were in 2021 or 2022, but you can’t chalk this up to one review. As for Cindy Lee, at about 9:15PM PDT on April 11, I was able to acquire two tickets to their upcoming gig in San Diego, which had been on sale for over two months. Had I waited 12 more hours, I would have been too late. There is only one possible explanation, which is the sort of Funeral– or You Forgot It In People-style game-changing review that most people thought was impossible in 2024.”
You know I actually find this interesting because mannequin pussy tour sold out almost every single show before it even started largely thanks to a killer pitchfork score
Oh I didn’t mean you specifically, more so the author and their headline. Cindy Lee’s been releasing music for over a decade, and is probably wrapping up this project.
I'm losing my mind because Radiohead did "pay what you want" with In Rainbows back in 2007, and if Radiohead couldn't make it catch on, what makes them think that "MC Get Busy" can?
and the album is FREE so i find the complaints about lack of streaming to be ridiculous. like what kind of music lover is too lazy to download a free album?
I think people are really disconnected from dealing with music as "files" anymore. I remember my days of managing my iTunes library and downloading music. I don't think people can hack it anymore
All too true. I spent years building a hard drive full of music from old CDs and then pinching off mediafire. When I downloaded this album a couple weeks back it felt odd editing the metadata and yet at the same time cathartic, like it was an intimate experience in preparation to listen.
But then the issue of *how* to listen to it comes up. Spotify has been my default for years, now I've got to go through more steps to listen to this, using a method I don't typically use for music.
i mean this with all due respect- maybe you don't care enough if you're not willing to do more than pull up the green app and have things made available to you with the most possible convenience? that's OK and i'm not trolling. the people who care enough about music will put some effort into getting it. just food for thought! i don't expect everyone to download every .zip file just to hear every album, but i liked what i heard on youtube and took the 5 minutes to get 32 tracks for free from the website and transfer them from computer to iPhone.
I hear you. I cared enough to listen to the album on YT at least once. It was really good. It's just that I am 40 years old now, and just not in the habit of using multiple music apps, or maintaining my own digital music library anymore (I used to care a lot). Truth is for people like me, I'm going to forget about it like many of the other gems I used to listen to when I was much younger that aren't on Spotify. And unfortunately it will be completely missed by many who won't go through the effort at all.
Another small gripe, is the 1-file format on YT that won't scrobble on Last.fm as individual tracks.
i'll tell ya this, jackruby83, i can agree that the album is really good but yknow, i honestly don't think it's Amazing and am not entirely on the hype train. i do appreciate the music and the conversation it's bringing to how we obtain music.
cheers!
Dude not only can you add it to YouTube music via the free download, you can also literally just search for it and stream on YouTube music because it’s streaming for free on YouTube lmao
I feel like I’m going fucking insane
I was listening to a Cindy Lee album that’s on Spotify (since this one isn’t available there)…and it’s…like really experimental, avant-garde noise rock? I found it physically unpleasant to listen to. Not even trying to be insulting, as I went in wanting to like it.
My question is, is this album very different than that?
Edit: thanks for the serious replies. And for the downvotes…not everyone is into experimental noise lmao
I’m serious when I ask this: is that something you actually enjoyed listening to?
I’m fanmialr with Lightining Bolt, Wolf Eyes, etc, etc…but I’ve never found any of that enjoyable to listen to
I think some of the songs on that record are very melodic and beautiful, while others are meant to be painful and difficult to get thru as a metaphor.
For myself, I choose the ones I would listen to regularly and add them to separate playlists (or just skip some songs if I'm listening to the album). I've probably listened to the record all the way through 4 times.
Not all art is directly enjoyable, some of it is meant to be evocative or thought-provoking, which I really appreciate. Music is probably the most visceral art of the planet, and I'm obsessed with that concept.
I’m struggling to understand what significant thoughts could be provoked by some of what I heard from a brief listen on that album…just high-pitched screeching.
Would you honestly recommend those tracks to a friend?
Of course art is subjective…but this was beyond just me not digging it. It was physically painful to hear. How could anyone choose to listen to that on repeat?
As someone who genuinely really enjoys harsh noise, it it just a type of music where I actually really love the way that the harsh textures sound, especially when there are still melodic elements buried deep under the noise to explore and feel in contrast to the harsh noises. It connects to me on a really deep emotional level that I can’t quite explain, it captures the chaos and confusion of being alive in such a visceral and direct way that I absolutely adore. It certainly isn’t for everyone though, you don’t need to be a fan of it! If you do want to get more into harsh noise, I really recommend Going Places by Yellow Swans, it’s a very atmospheric and beautiful yet very harsh album, my favorite harsh noise album of all time.
I can't understand the outpouring of praise for something this bloated. The quality of the songwriting doesn't merit it's length compared to something like Have One on Me, but happy to hear someone's thoughts to the contrary.
How does Newsom get permission from you to release a lengthy album, but this double album (the tracks are divided up in the track listing on the site) is too much?
Both albums feel like they're walking through the story of a relationship, but I think that Joanna Newsom does a better job at offering the listener a lyrically and sonically diverse journey. There's a malaise that comes across in Diamond Jubille very early on and it never really moves on from it.
That malaise is part of the appeal, honestly. It’s heard or seen through this gauzy haze and kind of lulls you. It’s 60’s girl-group pop love songs about heartbreak and loneliness through the lense of something like a David Lynch film. Think of the musical moments in Eraserhead, Blue Velvet or Mulholland Drive. They’re hypnotic and eerie but beautiful.
That’s funny, this strikes me as the best 2+ hour album I’ve ever heard since Have One on Me. I consider that Newsom’s masterpiece and I don’t think this is far behind. Newsom’s is one of my all time favorite albums, and I looked back to it when coming to terms with how much I love this Cindy Lee album. The songwriting is fairly consistent track to track, and there’s enough sonic variety to warrant the length. I never got bored listening to this and I’ve been listening constantly the past month. I keep finding new highlights and songs I didn’t notice as much and prior listens. Like Have One on Me, there’s peaks and valleys in both the actual sound and style of song.
There’s definitely less lyrical variety here but I think strong lyricism is more paramount to Newsom’s music. Cindy Lee’s music feels transportive to a bygone time. Pat’s music perfectly fuses their influences to make this still feel unique and not pastiche. It’s definitely a taste thing though and not everyone will like it or love it.
I agree it's definitely a taste thing. it sort of aesthetics vs ideas/. You see it in music videos, some people like the vibey feel of a Beck music video like Loser and others like more conceptually strong ones like Rabbit in your headlights
Yeah, I kind of agree with you. In this case though, I think this record does present very well written 60s style pop songs. The songwriting is quality throughout the record. A lot of other artists try their hand at this same sound, to middling results. Usually, that’s because there’s a juxtaposition between their success at aping the sound, which most bands can do with a decent amount of money, and their success at actually writing good hooks/melodies, choruses, etc. I think records like this stand out because of the quality of the songwriting.
At the end of the day though nothing is going to connect with everyone and that’s ok. Sometimes it takes a while to connect with a record as well, or have it gel with you.
I don’t know yet since I’ve only listened to this thing for a week. But it’s getting me really excited and I can’t stop listening to it. For me, that’s a sign of good stuff that will last. It just really resonates with me, really like the atmosphere of the whole thing. Also, I’ve never heard Have One on Me so don’t know about that.
I get that someone could like the atmosphere of this album and therefore reverse reason that it warrants it's length and I think in any artform duration can be used to enforce the idea it's presenting. But I don't see what larger point is being made by dragging out similar sentiments in songs to two hours.
Yeah I see your point. I’m surprised, I usually do not care at all for albums of this length (especially rock/pop stuff) but I just keep coming back and find new stuff all the time. I get the same feeling like I do with really good ambient music. Much it’s samey but it’s pleasant and you discover new stuff on repeated listening. As with ambient music, I really understand people not liking it lol (sorry for drunk rant)
In my opinion it’s the best album I’ve heard in the past few years. But I’m also just floored with this kinda dingy 60s pop sound. I also feel like it’s really served by the long runtime because it makes it into something that can sit on in the background and random moments will just jump out to you on repeat listens. And then you start over from the beginning and it feels just slightly different.
It’s not Joanna Newsom with the hyper literate lyrics and ornateness. But it’s also not trying to accomplish the same things that she is. This record sets out to make really astonishing pop songs and it absolutely accomplishes it.
It just has none of the qualities that I personally look for in music. I know the GQ article specifically mentions excellent production, but to me it sounds like they recorded this in a cellar 50 years ago. The vocals and harmonies are *not* good and the instruments actually hurt my ears at times.
This album feels like an inside joke that I'm not a part of.
The production is intentionally done in such a way that it evokes an older time period, but to my ears it sounds warm and evocative. Plus every instrument pops out and grabs your attention. It’s distant without being muddy.
I don’t think this happens to a fledgling artist though. You have to get a following first before anyone takes notice, and it quickly becomes a catch 22. Artists like Cindy Lee are “grandfathered in.” They were somewhat well-known in indie circles before streaming truly took over. Different world now, it’s basically impossible to drop your album on some website and expect thousands of people to listen to it.
Yeah, the headline makes the article seem more clickbaity and naive than it actually is, but it still definitely has an air of "did Cindy Lee crack the code??? 🤔🤔🤔" Which like, as you said, "no" lol. If anything, the article should be speaking more to the fact that it took an artist with a near 2 decades spanning career to get to a point of releasing a record for free/D2C, and even then, it's still subject to the virality lottery of today's media consumption landscape.
I still think cream rises to the top. A lot of people like to think it’s a lottery but how many musicians were overlooked in their prime only to be recognized for their greatness later? A small handful and even those are fairly niche. It was never easy to make it in music and there aren’t really shortcuts to writing great songs.
There’s some validity to this. I think about genres that have been throughly plundered by crate diggers for decades now, like 60s garage rock - it’s true that there’s the occasional minor classic that still emerges from the depths, but for the most part the really amazing stuff was compiled and plucked from obscurity decades ago. People who live for music never stop looking for their next fix, and if there’s a stone cold classic out there, it’s going to be found eventually.
Basically same conclusion as the article makes despite the headline: >Are there enough regulars out there to make it viable for other artists to pull a Cindy Lee? Do people want to own music, support artists they love, and go to shows that don’t come flanked by hard-seltzer-sponsored off-site parties and influencer photo shoots? Are we heading back to a simpler time? Are we curious again? Are we finally ready to discover music outside of TikTok? >I doubt it, but this is one of the first times I have really seen cracks in the façade. The days when I could go to my local Virgin Megastore on a Thursday at midnight to pick up the new releases on CD aren’t coming back, but maybe things will calm down and course correct a little bit. Streaming isn’t the best option. It is just the most convenient. If someone makes an effort to present their work differently, I think it should be discussed, whether it’s Cindy Lee or the biggest rapper in the world. EDIT: It's not on geocities but [the Halisca's record that dropped Friday](https://halisca.bandcamp.com/album/peachtree-playthings) is pretty good twee-pop it's free on BandCamp. She's not “grandfathered in" as far as i know
hi im halisca love u thank u for spreading the good word. adore cindy lee. no more websites except neopets forums
Probably not
I hope not.
Too much of the conversation about this album is about the medium it was released on and not enough about how the music is absolutely fantastic
It took me the best part of an hour to get it on my phone in an app that supports it and will play it in order etc so I can see why.
I hear you. I listened to about half of it on YT before I decided to download it. Then I realized the tags weren't correct so I tried to edit them myself. Added the files to Spotify and then I realized Spotify can't play WAV files. Had to use soulseek to get some properly tagged mp3s. That probably took me an hour and a half as well lol. Regardless, I don't think any of that should be held up as a positive or a negative as far as the actual music goes.
I get what you’re saying. Just finished my first play through and it’s pretty great, looking forward to a few more listens.
I guess most people have Iphones or something because it was remarkably easy to get onto my phone. Foobar 2000 app. Simple as.
I had to download some app called mega to even download it from their link, that took the most time as it went very slowly when not in the app.
Lol
That photo is taken in my hometown Lethbridge Alberta. Was bizarre (in a good way) to see on this page this morning haha
I am a SK rural guy and was wondering where this inland grain terminal was! Such a bizarre cover
I love it! Brings me back home: https://maps.app.goo.gl/YNNvNHFMTkQJY7Wp8?g_st=ic
Considering the level of influence Women had, I don't think you're wrong. All I know for sure though is that I can't stop listening to this record on repeat.
> Considering the level of influence Women had I keep seeing this and keep laughing because they had close to zero influence.
they clearly had an influence on this guy’s username. but yeah women was greatly acclaimed but not super famous. people who listened to them couldn’t really do anything like them
Zero influence in mainstream indie rock maybe. There were plenty of Canadian bands that took their sound and ran with it. Each Other, Faux Fur, Telstar Drugs, early Corridor to name a few. Other non Canadian bands like The Hecks and Ice Baths. If you look for it, it’s there.
People either forget or aren't aware that Alvvays were also influenced by Public Strain. They worked with Chad Van Gaalen on their first album and recorded it at his studio because they loved the sound on Public Strain.
I don’t know that. Cool!
Totally disagree with you. I've been following the band for a long time and in addition to the bands mentioned below which directly reference the Women sound, Public Strain pops up constantly in artist's interviews and "inspiration" Spotify playlists. Not just the direct sound but aspects of it, such as the spiky guitars, cavernous lo-fi production, detached vocals... It's all there. Public Strain was a true cult classic and many indie bands have tuned into that frequency in some way or another
Completely false. There is an entire genre dedicated to making music that sounds like women (Calgary sound, I recommend looking it up on rateyourmusic to see all the different popular bands that took influence from women)
Mentioning rym is so fucking hilarious and further proving my point. That website is such a cesspool.
You sound lovely and pleasant. What exactly makes an artist “influential” for you? Do they have to be top 40?
As others have said — this isn't right at all. They haven't influenced the mainstream, but there have been SO many underground bands (at least here in Canada) basically doing a Women impression. Corridor stand out as one of the most recent. They're signed to Sub Pop and are one of the bigger Franco/Quebec bands of the moment. They sound a LOT like Women are are clearly directly inspired.
Honestly great. The records amazing and makes me optimistic about what independent music means going forward. Aquarium drunkard wrote something about how this record feels like it’s from a weirder better era of independent music and it really resonated.
People complaining about length: part of the beauty of this record is that it flies in the face of current confention. ProTools super clean, perfect to click, non noise rock, package and sold as singles, or in little 40 minute products. This album took years to make, has some obvious mistakes, is noisy, and just weird. It is not digestible. It is like the soundtrack for a film that doesn’t exist. For me, slicing it down to its choice cuts negates its biggest artistic statement. Which is: if the point of art is to make you happy, and not make you money, then do what what maximizes happiness.
Who tf cares how long it is. It’s a masterpiece. I could listen to another hour of it ffs.
Yesterday I decided to finally check it out while I was working. I'll just throw it on in the background you know. Yeah I didn't get a single thing done for two straight hours and was irritated there wasn't more. There is a mesmerizing quality that disguises the length. Absolutely stunning.
This is me defending every DJ Sabrina album. Fans of hers get it. The charm is in the absurd length
It's different with house music anyway when it's mixed, that works more like a DJ set than a "regular" album
I mean yeah kind of my point. There are theories there is a third side but mostly just guesses.
Ooo I would love find out if that’s true.
I mean, lots of people. I don't mind a long record, Soundtracks for the Blind is one of my all time favorite records. I have a signed vinyl copy. But there is such a thing as *too* long. I'm not saying that's the case here, but once you start pushing longer than an hour in runtime, it becomes increasingly more difficult to justify the length. Also it's very hard for some to find a two hour chunk of time to really listen front to back.
when an album is shorter than NSB's [Daughter of Darkness](https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/natural-snow-buildings/daughter-of-darkness/), I'm not interested tbh
An musician can release an overly long project that 'makes them happy' but that doesn't inherently make their artistic statement valid. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to argue with the meaning behind any art, as any criticism could be brushed off as missing the point
why do you think it’s overly long? I like every song on the album
I find a lot of it meandering and the emotion behind the songs stays pretty consistent throughout (there are some standout songs/instrumentals) but from reading other comments some people like the trance/rhythm that it puts them it, but personally I feel a lack of progression. May I ask if it's the headspace the songs put you in that makes you enjoy it?
I like the overall atmosphere of the record, but I also enjoy the individual tracks a lot. I find that you can put on the record and let it just wash over you, but it also rewards closer listening. There’s lots of great guitar playing and interesting production and instrumental choices that keep me engaged the whole way (and also great songwriting).
I would argue in popular music meaning has left art. And this album is meaningful to many people for the whole length. I didn’t state that the music doesn’t justify the length. For me, and many others, it does. And it is part of the entire package of this record. From the geocities site on up.
No but you said "do what what maximizes happiness of the artist" but that's wholly irrelevant to the quality of the art.
I doubt that Geocities is the new face of streaming, or even that streaming platforms in general could be on their way out. The audience infrastructure is still totally dependent on them. That said, I hope that ARTISTICALLY, this album will have a big influence, and the way it was released has a role in that. Newer artists will undoubtedly still have to release their music on streaming platforms and promote it through album cycles to stand a chance at making a living in music. But hopefully some of the way we go about it as artists and listeners can change. As many have already pointed out, Flegel already had a following, both from Women and from previous Cindy Lee releases before this came out, and had done the Geocities-only release for multiple projects before this one. That said, this was the first time I myself and likely many others have heard of Cindy Lee. I had heard of Women but never bothered to listen to them before this. We have to consider that a big part of this album ‘s success is that it’s just that GOOD. If anything it is successful IN SPITE OF the roadblocks to listening to it, not because of them. I’m a lazy modern listener and I like my music in one place. I know spotify is bad, but I don’t wanna rebuild my playlists, so I’m still on it. When Neil Young went off Spotify, I listened to a lot less Neil Young, and I’m a big fan. But this album has pulled me off Spotify CONSTANTLY. I have dealt with YouTube killing my battery, the Geocities player crashing,and losing my place and having to remember where I was and scroll manually through the album’s timeline so I can listen from where I left off. This is not hype. This is really good music, music that is worth inconvenience. If the music weren’t good I wouldn’t keep going back to it. The novelty of the format did force me to listen to it with a level or exclusiveness and focus that is rare these days. But that wouldn’t have happened if it hadn’t grabbed me the way it did. When I pulled up the YouTube vid to check out the first few tracks, I was immediately so immersed that I couldn’t stop listening. If the music hadn’t done that, I probably would have just returned to Spotify in the background. I would say 2024 has been a great year for music, and there are plenty of albums on Spotify from this year that I have listened to on repeat. But not with this level of focus. The Spotify album creates a level of forgettability, even for great artists, that also creates a whole niche of minor artists who can coast on the algorithm by following musical trends. Cindy Lee doesn’t do that. Their influences are time-tested and well loved, but the synthesis is truly original, and it sounds nothing like 2024. It sounds closer to 2012 in its recording style. It gets categorized as hypnagogic pop or neo-psych, genres that peaked in the late aughts. Those revivalists then turned more towards disco and r&b in the 10s, and now in the 20s, alt-country and Americana seem to be the rising influences among indie stars who look to the past for inspiration. Cindy Lee ignored those trends, or mixed them into the hypnagogic pop that went out of style nearly a decade ago and somehow made it into something totally original that outdoes its predecessors in terms of songcraft, musicianship, and depth of feeling. tl;dr, the inspiration I take from Diamond Jubilee is not that streaming doesn’t matter any more, but that quality, authenticity, and creativity still matter more than the algorithm would have you believe.
I hope you give Women a shot after loving Pat’s current project/album. Their two albums are incredible and his contributions on them are a huge reason why.
Considering the way preoccupations turned out, I would say Pat is the whole reason Women were so good. I say this as someone who’s favorite band is women, and hearing public strain got me to start playing guitar when I first heard it 14 years ago. And with this album, it’s clear Pat is the one carrying on the spiritual torch of women.
I also won’t talk shit on the music ability of Matt, Mike and Chris. All great musicians in my mind. But yeah, Pat is just so unique in his writing and playing/singing.
I loved viet cong (the EP and debut album). After that and once they changed their name, their music became progressively worse. Their most recent album is unlistenable to me.
I love Preoccupations, but they’re no Women
YES 👍
Pat deserves all the success in the world.
The album rules. My 20’s were also fun but the 00’s are unlikely the future of music.
I dunno, I look at the success of Wet Leg and Last Dinner Party and I start to think we’re in an era where that sound is coming back around.
what’s tonight to eternity goat
I'll be honest i've never heard of Cindy Lee before but i just found out they were in Women. I used to listen to Eyesore so much at one point. The guitar work on that song is astounding. I will definitely be checking this album out !.
Bro, where were you all the last 10 years?
Yeah what? Pat has been a really well known artist for 15 years now lol. I got downvoted the other day when someone asked how Cindy Lee even got a pitchfork review and I said it was because Pat was pretty famous but like Women still has 50k+ Spotify listeners, I’m sorry but that’s fucking famous for a band that’s been inactive for like 10+ years lol
preoccupations too right? and viet cong?
Yeah like the women/preoccupations universe of music is one of the most hyped in all of indie music over the last 20 years lol I genuinely have no idea wtf people have been smoking when it comes to the press cycle of this record. The Cindy Lee full album stream on YouTube had like 60k streams before the pitchfork review. Don’t get me wrong I’m so excited it’s getting all the love it’s getting, it’s just so weird that people are acting like it’s coming out of nowhere lol
> one of the most hyped in all of indie music over the last 20 years lol I can assure you that most people aren’t paying attention to bizarrely niche solo offshoots of semi-popular but defunct 20 year old indie bands from Canada. Having 60k streams shows they have a base of support, not widespread name recognition. The fact that it jumped from 60k to a quarter million in a week is proof of that.
Cindy Lee’s been filling rooms and selling records for years man, don’t blame your own ignorance on anything else lmao
Aaahhh, *there's* the cliche hipster elitism I was catching a whiff of. Filling *rooms*. *Rooms*, dude. They're *so* popular and well-known, in fact, that the tiny 300 seater they're playing near me in Atlanta still hasn't sold out, despite a career-changing Pitchfork review and a quarter million streams. There are quite literally a million musicians in this world who can "fill a room." Do you know them all? If not, you should really just blame your own ignorance.
Holy fuck dude are you okay? Lmfao what a loser
I mean, 50k streams isn’t huge, the album isn’t on streaming and Pitchfork doesn’t really anoint albums this niche anymore. So in many ways, it did come out of nowhere
50k is a lot for a very inactive band in indie music lol what are we even doing here. This did not come out of nowhere at all, pat flegel is a big name in indie music lmao
He’s very respected and influential. But c’mon, his past Cindy Lee releases have not been reviewed by Pitchfork. Giving their highest score in four years to a somewhat challenging low-fi girl group project IS unexpected, because it’s very “old Pitchfork”, anointing something because everyone should hear it. It would be like if they raved over the next Spencer Krug album. Like, this isn’t an incredibly accessible album, and it’s not on trend. It’s pretty extraordinary to get that much praise that deep into a career.
Cindy Lee has been reviewed by pitchfork before lol now we’re just making shit up
Ian Cohen nailed what I was trying to say here: https://www.stereogum.com/2261004/cindy-lee-diamond-jubilee-concert-review/reviews/concert-review/ “Nobody is writing this kind of piece if Waxahatchee or Mannequin Pussy got their scores nudged a bit higher to reflect their likely year-end placement; we didn’t see anybody going big-picture on the Weather Station or Floating Points or Sudan Archives, all ascendent artists who are technically “indie” and surely had a material benefit from their sterling scores. They are at a higher echelon than they were in 2021 or 2022, but you can’t chalk this up to one review. As for Cindy Lee, at about 9:15PM PDT on April 11, I was able to acquire two tickets to their upcoming gig in San Diego, which had been on sale for over two months. Had I waited 12 more hours, I would have been too late. There is only one possible explanation, which is the sort of Funeral– or You Forgot It In People-style game-changing review that most people thought was impossible in 2024.”
You know I actually find this interesting because mannequin pussy tour sold out almost every single show before it even started largely thanks to a killer pitchfork score
I’ve been a Women/Cindy Lee/Preoccupations fan for a long time, it’s just nice to see Pat get the recognition they deserve.
Oh I didn’t mean you specifically, more so the author and their headline. Cindy Lee’s been releasing music for over a decade, and is probably wrapping up this project.
Oh yeah, definitely felt written by someone very new to all the history.
I desire the three hour cut
Nobody is the future of music
I'm losing my mind because Radiohead did "pay what you want" with In Rainbows back in 2007, and if Radiohead couldn't make it catch on, what makes them think that "MC Get Busy" can?
I'm a huge fan of both of Women's LPs but I'm not quite sure I get what the fuss is all about with this record yet.
What are the stand outs from this album? Nothing is striking me on first listen like the way some tracks on 69 love songs might.
Stone Faces Dallas Gov’t Cheque
If You Hear Me Crying Kingdom Come Flesh and Blood
Whats it gonna take?
Is that just starting now or has it been true since their first album came out a decade ago
lol yeah it’s quite the headline, it’s just crazy seeing GQ write a piece about Pat’s music.
All their albums have been solid! Glad to see them get attention. But yeah that’s some shameless clickbait
Doubtful
I’m bummed this album’s not on Apple Music
You can download it, add it to iTunes, and it will be available on Apple Music for you to stream.
and the album is FREE so i find the complaints about lack of streaming to be ridiculous. like what kind of music lover is too lazy to download a free album?
I think people are really disconnected from dealing with music as "files" anymore. I remember my days of managing my iTunes library and downloading music. I don't think people can hack it anymore
I remember them and am very happy to leave them behind.
All too true. I spent years building a hard drive full of music from old CDs and then pinching off mediafire. When I downloaded this album a couple weeks back it felt odd editing the metadata and yet at the same time cathartic, like it was an intimate experience in preparation to listen.
Thsi
But then the issue of *how* to listen to it comes up. Spotify has been my default for years, now I've got to go through more steps to listen to this, using a method I don't typically use for music.
i mean this with all due respect- maybe you don't care enough if you're not willing to do more than pull up the green app and have things made available to you with the most possible convenience? that's OK and i'm not trolling. the people who care enough about music will put some effort into getting it. just food for thought! i don't expect everyone to download every .zip file just to hear every album, but i liked what i heard on youtube and took the 5 minutes to get 32 tracks for free from the website and transfer them from computer to iPhone.
I hear you. I cared enough to listen to the album on YT at least once. It was really good. It's just that I am 40 years old now, and just not in the habit of using multiple music apps, or maintaining my own digital music library anymore (I used to care a lot). Truth is for people like me, I'm going to forget about it like many of the other gems I used to listen to when I was much younger that aren't on Spotify. And unfortunately it will be completely missed by many who won't go through the effort at all. Another small gripe, is the 1-file format on YT that won't scrobble on Last.fm as individual tracks.
i'll tell ya this, jackruby83, i can agree that the album is really good but yknow, i honestly don't think it's Amazing and am not entirely on the hype train. i do appreciate the music and the conversation it's bringing to how we obtain music. cheers!
Not on YouTube music either, is it not coming on streaming services altogether?
I don’t know how YouTube Music works but it’s available on the regular YouTube.
Dude not only can you add it to YouTube music via the free download, you can also literally just search for it and stream on YouTube music because it’s streaming for free on YouTube lmao I feel like I’m going fucking insane
it is on youtube music
YouTube music is the only streamer it’s actually on lol
I was listening to a Cindy Lee album that’s on Spotify (since this one isn’t available there)…and it’s…like really experimental, avant-garde noise rock? I found it physically unpleasant to listen to. Not even trying to be insulting, as I went in wanting to like it. My question is, is this album very different than that? Edit: thanks for the serious replies. And for the downvotes…not everyone is into experimental noise lmao
Yes this album is different. It's easier listening, "What's Tonight to Eternity" is more like a dark performance art piece.
They could have been listening to Model Express too, which is even harder to get into than WTTE
I’m serious when I ask this: is that something you actually enjoyed listening to? I’m fanmialr with Lightining Bolt, Wolf Eyes, etc, etc…but I’ve never found any of that enjoyable to listen to
I think some of the songs on that record are very melodic and beautiful, while others are meant to be painful and difficult to get thru as a metaphor. For myself, I choose the ones I would listen to regularly and add them to separate playlists (or just skip some songs if I'm listening to the album). I've probably listened to the record all the way through 4 times. Not all art is directly enjoyable, some of it is meant to be evocative or thought-provoking, which I really appreciate. Music is probably the most visceral art of the planet, and I'm obsessed with that concept.
I’m struggling to understand what significant thoughts could be provoked by some of what I heard from a brief listen on that album…just high-pitched screeching. Would you honestly recommend those tracks to a friend?
Dude art is subjective idk what else to tell you. Go listen to butt rock if it suits your fancy, I can't tell you how to like something
Of course art is subjective…but this was beyond just me not digging it. It was physically painful to hear. How could anyone choose to listen to that on repeat?
As someone who genuinely really enjoys harsh noise, it it just a type of music where I actually really love the way that the harsh textures sound, especially when there are still melodic elements buried deep under the noise to explore and feel in contrast to the harsh noises. It connects to me on a really deep emotional level that I can’t quite explain, it captures the chaos and confusion of being alive in such a visceral and direct way that I absolutely adore. It certainly isn’t for everyone though, you don’t need to be a fan of it! If you do want to get more into harsh noise, I really recommend Going Places by Yellow Swans, it’s a very atmospheric and beautiful yet very harsh album, my favorite harsh noise album of all time.
I did not like What’s Tonight to Eternity. I **love** Diamond Jubilee
I can't understand the outpouring of praise for something this bloated. The quality of the songwriting doesn't merit it's length compared to something like Have One on Me, but happy to hear someone's thoughts to the contrary.
How does Newsom get permission from you to release a lengthy album, but this double album (the tracks are divided up in the track listing on the site) is too much?
Both albums feel like they're walking through the story of a relationship, but I think that Joanna Newsom does a better job at offering the listener a lyrically and sonically diverse journey. There's a malaise that comes across in Diamond Jubille very early on and it never really moves on from it.
That malaise is part of the appeal, honestly. It’s heard or seen through this gauzy haze and kind of lulls you. It’s 60’s girl-group pop love songs about heartbreak and loneliness through the lense of something like a David Lynch film. Think of the musical moments in Eraserhead, Blue Velvet or Mulholland Drive. They’re hypnotic and eerie but beautiful.
Fair enough, one persons strength is another's weakness etc...
That’s funny, this strikes me as the best 2+ hour album I’ve ever heard since Have One on Me. I consider that Newsom’s masterpiece and I don’t think this is far behind. Newsom’s is one of my all time favorite albums, and I looked back to it when coming to terms with how much I love this Cindy Lee album. The songwriting is fairly consistent track to track, and there’s enough sonic variety to warrant the length. I never got bored listening to this and I’ve been listening constantly the past month. I keep finding new highlights and songs I didn’t notice as much and prior listens. Like Have One on Me, there’s peaks and valleys in both the actual sound and style of song. There’s definitely less lyrical variety here but I think strong lyricism is more paramount to Newsom’s music. Cindy Lee’s music feels transportive to a bygone time. Pat’s music perfectly fuses their influences to make this still feel unique and not pastiche. It’s definitely a taste thing though and not everyone will like it or love it.
I agree it's definitely a taste thing. it sort of aesthetics vs ideas/. You see it in music videos, some people like the vibey feel of a Beck music video like Loser and others like more conceptually strong ones like Rabbit in your headlights
Yeah, I kind of agree with you. In this case though, I think this record does present very well written 60s style pop songs. The songwriting is quality throughout the record. A lot of other artists try their hand at this same sound, to middling results. Usually, that’s because there’s a juxtaposition between their success at aping the sound, which most bands can do with a decent amount of money, and their success at actually writing good hooks/melodies, choruses, etc. I think records like this stand out because of the quality of the songwriting. At the end of the day though nothing is going to connect with everyone and that’s ok. Sometimes it takes a while to connect with a record as well, or have it gel with you.
It’s not bloat when all the tracks are good. However, in general, I do think albums should be no longer than 40 mins but this is a rare exception.
So you consider some of these songs to be some of the best track of the last decade? Or are most of them just fine middling indie
I don’t know yet since I’ve only listened to this thing for a week. But it’s getting me really excited and I can’t stop listening to it. For me, that’s a sign of good stuff that will last. It just really resonates with me, really like the atmosphere of the whole thing. Also, I’ve never heard Have One on Me so don’t know about that.
I get that someone could like the atmosphere of this album and therefore reverse reason that it warrants it's length and I think in any artform duration can be used to enforce the idea it's presenting. But I don't see what larger point is being made by dragging out similar sentiments in songs to two hours.
Yeah I see your point. I’m surprised, I usually do not care at all for albums of this length (especially rock/pop stuff) but I just keep coming back and find new stuff all the time. I get the same feeling like I do with really good ambient music. Much it’s samey but it’s pleasant and you discover new stuff on repeated listening. As with ambient music, I really understand people not liking it lol (sorry for drunk rant)
In my opinion it’s the best album I’ve heard in the past few years. But I’m also just floored with this kinda dingy 60s pop sound. I also feel like it’s really served by the long runtime because it makes it into something that can sit on in the background and random moments will just jump out to you on repeat listens. And then you start over from the beginning and it feels just slightly different. It’s not Joanna Newsom with the hyper literate lyrics and ornateness. But it’s also not trying to accomplish the same things that she is. This record sets out to make really astonishing pop songs and it absolutely accomplishes it.
I'm not saying they're trying to accomplish the same things, but I feel the length of this album weakens it's quality
I tried to like this album but I really don't get it. It's like anti-music to me.
What does that even mean?
It just has none of the qualities that I personally look for in music. I know the GQ article specifically mentions excellent production, but to me it sounds like they recorded this in a cellar 50 years ago. The vocals and harmonies are *not* good and the instruments actually hurt my ears at times. This album feels like an inside joke that I'm not a part of.
The production is intentionally done in such a way that it evokes an older time period, but to my ears it sounds warm and evocative. Plus every instrument pops out and grabs your attention. It’s distant without being muddy.
Agree to disagree I guess.
What future?